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Night and Day Difference In-State Recruiting Approach
Topic Started: May 10 2013, 09:07 AM (586 Views)
LonzoVol


BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 09:04 AM
There's still a lot of time to get LB and DL's in this class. You give him a B at this time while the class is rated in the top ten now. Wouldn't that earn an A at this time? Also, what your missing is the way Jones is building enthusiasm for the program. Dooley was just a new coach who always gets a lot of excitement. Jones goes beyond that by developing a plan to recruit in Tenn and elsewhere based on Tenn traditions. Dooley was mostly negative toward what he saw at Tenn. The players don't know how to shower, etc. The big question is can Jones survive the first two years without so much negative input from the fan base that turns recruits off. Even if he wins 6 games this year, will recruits still be interested in Tenn because of the mediocre record. The same for the following year. He has an up hill battle. You may not be wearing AV or orange goggles, but you should have your prescription checked.
Couple of things here BJ. I have been covering this football program for newspapers since 1988. I have been following recruiting for longer than that. Right now I give Jones a solid A for his early commitments. He will not get a clean sweep of all he wants in-state because of what I have stated many times in the past, some of these kids are very mercenary, have absolutely zero loyality to their home state and some just want to get out of state and further away from home.
Jones and various staff members understand perfectly what it will take to win at UT. They have already proven that they are pursuing top tier talent and not players that simply fit their systems. So that should have already relieved some fretting and worrying right there. Jones has been quoted on multiple occasions that the SEC is a line of scrimmage league. Obviously that means that he knows one must have studs in the trenches to win in this conference.
Also, I am not worried about his coaching. He has won at every stop he has made up the ladder and he will win in Knoxville. The top players in the country don't go to the MAC or the Big East Conference. Jones got the best available players that would realistically consider his programs. He knows how to recruit and he is working it as hard as any head coach I have ever seen.
This team will win a game this year when they are an underdog. Football is such a game of emotional peaks and valleys. UT will catch somebody flat this year and defeat that team. The Defense this year will be closer to the 2011 group that finished 28th overall in the nation rather than last year's train wreck with Buddy Hackett. They are stout at all positions except cornerback.
Offense will be OK. Not explosive like last season, but hopefully a possession style that keeps the ball away from the opponent. I'm very excited to see this team perform. They are going to surprise some folks and I guarantee you they won't lose at Oregion 100-0.
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*OrangeRev
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Tree hug'n, bleed'n heart, lazy luv'n, global warm'n token liberal

BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 09:04 AM
There's still a lot of time to get LB and DL's in this class. You give him a B at this time while the class is rated in the top ten now.
I base my grade on needs. Our BIGGEST needs are at RB, LB and D-line, and we only really have the one RB, our next biggest needs are at DB and OL. He's done well at DB and OL, and we do have a high end RB committed. But, still, without LB and D-line commitments, it is hard to give out an A.

Also, until most teams get to 20 commitments, top classes are more graded by quantity rather than quality.


BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 09:04 AM
Dooley was mostly negative toward what he saw at Tenn. The players don't know how to shower, etc.
That's true. But, still, those negative moments were quite entertaining. :biggrin:
Edited by OrangeRev, May 13 2013, 11:09 AM.
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BJVOL III
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Rev
I question the B because of the time of the year. He has a long way to go until Feb, therefore he should be able to feel the LB and D-line. But at this time, the quality of the recruits is an A in my opinion. The needs will continually be met during the year. That's why I am questioning you grade--it's too early to have all needs met now. But what we do have is a quality group and that's what I am grading on. Dooley's comments were entertaining to us but I am not so sure the team enjoyed them.
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BJVOL III
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Lonzo
I think we are in agreement about Jones. I think we will catch somebody by surprise but we may be caught ourselves. The coin always has two sides. I worry about that Auburn game. The one area I am not too sure of is our offense. I know Spring games are meaningless, but the QB and wide receivers are not impressive. The defense will be better but can they hold up if the offense isn't producing. A lot of questions now but Jones appears to be the man for the job.
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*OrangeRev
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Tree hug'n, bleed'n heart, lazy luv'n, global warm'n token liberal

BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 12:10 PM
Rev
I question the B because of the time of the year. He has a long way to go until Feb, therefore he should be able to feel the LB and D-line. But at this time, the quality of the recruits is an A in my opinion. The needs will continually be met during the year. That's why I am questioning you grade--it's too early to have all needs met now. But what we do have is a quality group and that's what I am grading on. Dooley's comments were entertaining to us but I am not so sure the team enjoyed them.
Yep there's a long way to go until Feb ... but you cannot say needs will be met because you don't know. Our LB needs have not been met for 3 years and Butch made moves last year that specifically flushed our D-Line prospects out the door.

But, OK, if you want to go with quality instead of filling needs, then let's use rational measures rather than feelings. I am a pretty die-hard recruitnik, and I am willing to let my feelings be set aside for a moment.

Let's use the Rivals star scale and see how this year's recruiting compares with prior years based on their measure of quality.

1. 2005 (3.69) ... Fulmer
2. 2007 (3.62) ... Fulmer
3. 2009 (3.59) ... Kiffin
4. 2012 (3.41) ... Dooley
5. 2010 (3.37) ... Dooley
6. 2011 (3.37) ... Dooley
7. 2014 (3.36) ... Jones
8. 2013 (3.19) ... Jones

9. 2006 (3.09) ... Fulmer
10. 2008 (3.05) ... Fulmer

Using this, we see that Jones' quality ranks worse that both Dooley and Kiffin. What's more, the overall average of these classes is 3.37 and Jones is pulling a 3.36 at the moment. If "D" is supposed to reflect below average on a grading scale, then one's factual stance must be that this class ranks as a "D" in terms of quality ... but, with a coarser detail I think we can all agree that it looks average or "C" compared with the past decade.

So, there is nothing stellar about Jones' recruiting when you compare it with the last 10 years of Vol recruiting. What is amazing is that we have gotten this many recruits this early. I think this one thing is creating a "feeling" that Jones is somehow an "A". That's OK. I want him to be an "A", and I hope he will be an "A" in my mind by the time that this recruiting cycle is complete.

Perhaps you are just ahead of me. :coolaid:
Edited by OrangeRev, May 13 2013, 02:03 PM.
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LonzoVol


BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 12:16 PM
Lonzo
I think we are in agreement about Jones. I think we will catch somebody by surprise but we may be caught ourselves. The coin always has two sides. I worry about that Auburn game. The one area I am not too sure of is our offense. I know Spring games are meaningless, but the QB and wide receivers are not impressive. The defense will be better but can they hold up if the offense isn't producing. A lot of questions now but Jones appears to be the man for the job.
On recruiting, using only one service that has lost many of its veteran talent sniffers over the past few years can be very dicey and apparently we see this quite often. Some of the Vol commitments haven't even been rated yet and a couple more are sitting at .1 below a one star advance. So again, you are right in your conclusion that it is very early. Also, averageing stars alone does not measure character and that is where another flaw rears its head. Fulmer, for example, recruited several thugs that were rated highly as football players but were absolute zeros as human beings. Also, his classes the last couple of years were almost totally devoid of linemen, but were bumped up by skill people.
Tennessee's players are hungry and tired of losing. I don't see them being ripe to be upset this year. The Western Ky. game will be interesting because Petrino is the finest pass game mind in college football today. But can their defensive front stand against, perhaps, the finest offensive line in the SEC? And again, Jones and Bajakian run a hurry up offense, but it is not an offense that is constantly looking for the home run ball. They feature the tight end position in their pass game, something you saw none of in the spring game, probably by design but also because all the top three tight ends were out with King joining the other two on the sidelines early with a foot injury. The quarterbacks and wide receivers will work hard this summer. Croom did not play in the spring game. North and Josh Smith will be in Knoxville next month.
So, don't worry, you are going to be very pleased with the product that you see on the field this year.
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BJVOL III
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Rev
I think Lonzo has some good points about recruiting which I wish you would address. Jones has a emphasis on character which could mean some staying power, which Kiffin and Dooley's recruits have not for the most part. Kiffin's one class is a disgrace. But your scale above has Jones 2013 final class at 3.19, but again, he had only 30 days compared to Dooley, Fulmer and Kiffin who had a full year or more to get the class. Jones 2014 class is not a final as the others are. A fair comparison would be how those coaches were doing at this time of the year. My guess is they would be behind Jones. Also, many of the better recruits wait until the end of the process in February, and if Jones keeps going those recruits will increase the numbers on the scale. Plus other players will emerge during their senior year. So your rationale using the scale is faulty logic because of so many variables. Sometimes feelings can reveal a greater sense of truth than numbers, which taken alone, can distort reality.
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LonzoVol


BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 04:03 PM
Rev
I think Lonzo has some good points about recruiting which I wish you would address. Jones has a emphasis on character which could mean some staying power, which Kiffin and Dooley's recruits have not for the most part. Kiffin's one class is a disgrace. But your scale above has Jones 2013 final class at 3.19, but again, he had only 30 days compared to Dooley, Fulmer and Kiffin who had a full year or more to get the class. Jones 2014 class is not a final as the others are. A fair comparison would be how those coaches were doing at this time of the year. My guess is they would be behind Jones. Also, many of the better recruits wait until the end of the process in February, and if Jones keeps going those recruits will increase the numbers on the scale. Plus other players will emerge during their senior year. So your rationale using the scale is faulty logic because of so many variables. Sometimes feelings can reveal a greater sense of truth than numbers, which taken alone, can distort reality.
Here's a quick look at ESPN so far BJ. They have rated nine of the Vols commitments to date. They have not rated the juco WR Jackson, Creamer or the tight end Helm, who is rated higher than Wolf on other sites. The star average of the nine players rated thus far by ESPN is 3.67 with Brown, Wolf and Thomas all sitting very close to being elevated to the next star up.
As to the 2013 class, we have already seen indications that a player like Vereen was rated too low by Rivals. Kid had four sacks in the spring game and will play this season as a designated pass rusher. Foreman was rated too low and will be a solid corner at UT, probably fairly early in his career. Ferguson was an Elite 11 QB but I see above only three stars.
Also, I think both Hurd and Kelly Jr. have a chance to be five stars on a service before the conclusion of this recruiting cycle. They are just that good.
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el diablo
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LonzoVol
May 13 2013, 10:44 AM
BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 09:04 AM
There's still a lot of time to get LB and DL's in this class. You give him a B at this time while the class is rated in the top ten now. Wouldn't that earn an A at this time? Also, what your missing is the way Jones is building enthusiasm for the program. Dooley was just a new coach who always gets a lot of excitement. Jones goes beyond that by developing a plan to recruit in Tenn and elsewhere based on Tenn traditions. Dooley was mostly negative toward what he saw at Tenn. The players don't know how to shower, etc. The big question is can Jones survive the first two years without so much negative input from the fan base that turns recruits off. Even if he wins 6 games this year, will recruits still be interested in Tenn because of the mediocre record. The same for the following year. He has an up hill battle. You may not be wearing AV or orange goggles, but you should have your prescription checked.
Couple of things here BJ. I have been covering this football program for newspapers since 1988. I have been following recruiting for longer than that. Right now I give Jones a solid A for his early commitments. He will not get a clean sweep of all he wants in-state because of what I have stated many times in the past, some of these kids are very mercenary, have absolutely zero loyality to their home state and some just want to get out of state and further away from home.
Jones and various staff members understand perfectly what it will take to win at UT. They have already proven that they are pursuing top tier talent and not players that simply fit their systems. So that should have already relieved some fretting and worrying right there. Jones has been quoted on multiple occasions that the SEC is a line of scrimmage league. Obviously that means that he knows one must have studs in the trenches to win in this conference.
Also, I am not worried about his coaching. He has won at every stop he has made up the ladder and he will win in Knoxville. The top players in the country don't go to the MAC or the Big East Conference. Jones got the best available players that would realistically consider his programs. He knows how to recruit and he is working it as hard as any head coach I have ever seen.
This team will win a game this year when they are an underdog. Football is such a game of emotional peaks and valleys. UT will catch somebody flat this year and defeat that team. The Defense this year will be closer to the 2011 group that finished 28th overall in the nation rather than last year's train wreck with Buddy Hackett. They are stout at all positions except cornerback.
Offense will be OK. Not explosive like last season, but hopefully a possession style that keeps the ball away from the opponent. I'm very excited to see this team perform. They are going to surprise some folks and I guarantee you they won't lose at Oregion 100-0.
I hope all you say is true right up to Oregon not scoring 100 pts. Monte Kiffin had them pretty screwed up until the rain delay and film study by Oregon in the delay. I just don't see our offense scoring much and I see a lot of offense by Oregon running it up on a SEC team. They averaged 80 yds rushing against LSU and Aub and ave 300 yds rushing in the PAC-12. I just don't think the offense is going to keep the ball long enough to give the defense some rest. I could be wrong. I hope so.
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*Zippy
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that wasnt Monte, he would have been cluless against that Oregon offense. That was all Wilcox
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leonsking
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OrangeRev
May 13 2013, 08:48 AM
BJVOL III
May 13 2013, 08:20 AM
Rev
Sounds like the Jones can't do anything to get you in his camp other than win 10 games with Dooley's and Kiffen's recruits. You forget that Dooley had the advantage of Kiffen recruiting hard until he got the call from USC in January. Dooley quit recruiting by mid season and Jones only had 30 days to try to get recruits. Also, Jones had to undue the damage Dooley did to recruiting in Tenn. I think you need to take off your AV glasses see the situation more accurately.
I am calm now about the 2013 recruiting class, and giving Jones mostly a pass on it - I think Dooley indeed did a lot of damage to that class.

When I refer to the "first full year" of Dooley, I am not talking about the 2010 class but the 2011 class, which is more appropriate for comparing to Jones' "first full year" of 2014. And, I should mention that I am optimistic about what I've seen with the 2014 class, and actually giving Jones a B thus far on 2014 recruiting. He's done really well at filling needed holes at TE, DB, and OL ... let's not forget a gem in RB Hurd (though we need another large back). His downside is that we are still sucking wind with getting linebackers and D-linemen - the state of these positions reminds me of Robot flailing his arms while repeating "Danger-Danger-Danger".

In the end, just on numbers alone (29-30), he'll walk away with a top-10 class. But, we have got to fill these gaping holes at LB and DL.

Jones isn't going to win 10 games this year ... his "par" should be a 6-win season with the talent and experience he has. I do not think I am wearing either AV glasses or orange goggles.
You are giving Jones a B for the 14 class so far? Can you say that with a straight face in a room full of people that know recruiting?

No, I get it now, you're pissed we didn't get Charlie Strong and the future convict Big Clint Hurtt. So Butch has a short lease with you. But a B? Really? A composite ranking of #3, with 9 months to go and damn near 20 LOI left IS UNPRECEDENTED. At any school, especially one coming off of 3 straight losing seasons and no bowl in 3 years.

I get it, CBJ hasn't won a game yet.

You' re on my ignore list just because I lose brain cells just seeing your name.

My god, I'm surrounded by idiots.
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*TennesseeTuxedo
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I have to say that Butch Jones is kicking some serious booty in recruiting right now.
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