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Is Dool's Leaving us Better Off????
Topic Started: Oct 25 2012, 02:27 PM (1,336 Views)
*TennesseeTuxedo
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AV, One thing anyone who knows me and my actions will tell you that I am my own person and do not bow to peer pressure, as you are trying to assert.

Can you tell us about the 18 players in our two deep, who NFL Draft analyst Todd McShay, will likely play in the NFL. When Derek Dooley took the program over, there were maybe 4 NFL players in the two deep, with exception of the freshmen on tge 2010 team.

That alone disproves your theme, meme, and main thrust if this thread.

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*OrangeRev
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Tree hug'n, bleed'n heart, lazy luv'n, global warm'n token liberal

AtlantaVol
Oct 25 2012, 10:09 PM
Take again the OL that zippy was saying is so much better. I clearly said above that for 2013 you have SR's in Bullard, Stone, James, and Fulton to go with JR Richardson. Good enough starting OL and better than when he got here- although Fulton and James were technically Kiffin recruits.

But behind them in 2013 we have SO's in Posey, Kerbyson, and Crowder with JR Jackson.

Behind these guys there is NO ONE since Drool's didn't sign an OL player in 2012. Not one!!!!

And currently in 2013 class he has ONE guy listed as an OL player.

So technically you are correct- he leaves the new HC in 2013 with a better OL than the one when he got there. But it is a ticking timebomb for 2014 with maybe 5 OL on the team except for who we sign as FR in 2014.
The OL situation is not a problem.

(1) For the 2012 class, the OL was at the bottom of all positions with regard to recruiting. Simply put, the reason that we did not sign an OL to the 2012 class is because we had MANY other higher priority positions that needed to be filled. At most, I thought we might sign one last year (Andrew Jelks) and once he committed to Vandy but we really only courted a few and perhaps Joey O'Conner was the most likely. But, because we needed to focus elsewhere in 2012, it is not a big deal that no OL positions were signed.
(2) The distribution of OL across eligibility classes is what you need to look at, and not merely consider what class they signed. The distribution looks like this for 2013 and it is a very healthy distribution of players across eligibility classes:

FreshmenSophomoresJuniorsSeniors
A. Sanders (4*)
D. Skipper (3*)
B. Kendrick (3*)
R. Koehler (4*)
A. Posey (3*)
K. Kerbyson (3*)
M. Crowder (3*)
A. Richardson (4*)
M. Pair (3*)
M. Jackson (4*)
J. James (4*)
Z. Fulton (3*)
A Bullard (4*)
J. Stone (4*)


(3) I don't know why you think that we only have one guy committed to the O-line in the 2013 class. We have 3 verbals and Koehler is a heavy lean to the Vols. The only tweek I would make to our OL situation is that I believe that we need to sign 5 this year (and I know that Pittman is attempting to find another possibility out there, but no one is really likely at this point).
Edited by OrangeRev, Oct 26 2012, 07:41 AM.
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BJVOL III
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Sorry Tux, but you are a big time promoter of Dooley. AV is right on this one!
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AtlantaVol


Zippy
Oct 25 2012, 10:38 PM
AtlantaVol
Oct 25 2012, 10:23 PM
Sorry but you can't LOGICALLY claim such about a player being redshirted who has never taken a snap.
It's very logical: it's just relative.

This is without even getting into the fact that Dooley doesnt even have a FB, and we have no idea if the new coach (assuming there is one) will either. We are basically arguing over a position that doesnt even really exist under Dooley (or even how Justin King also fits into this equation), and may very well continue not existing under a new OC. This one really isnt worth arguing about.
I will concede there is no true FB right now but they do play Bartholomew as sort of an hybrid TE and FB slotted out at times.

On a similar point though, it was thought that Rivera would be a big asset this year but he has almost disappeared. I saw Bammer and almost every other team dump it down for 7-8 yard passes on 3rd and 6 plays where Tard Cut usually calls long sideline 25-30 yard passes as he did twice in the MSU game on 3rd and 3 then 3rd and 1 plays.

I am just not sure this team has much talent but it is there on paper with recruited 4* players all over the field that many other teams recruited. There is either 8 or 9 guys on Offense on each play who were 4* High School players recruited by many teams. On Defense all 3 DL and 3 of the 4 LB's were 4* players. As far as DB's we have Coleman, Gordon, Teague, Moore, McNeill, Bonner, etc as 4* players and Waggoner, Brewer, Gray, and the injured Safety as 3* players.

Bottom line is that there seems to be recruited talent although only Hunter, Richardson, Smith, and McNeill were Top 125 players. So they are virtually all mid ranked Top 125-300 type players. So why are we 1-14 or so since 2011 in the SEC??? It simply HAS to be the coaching and they simply HAVE to go!
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AtlantaVol


TennesseeTuxedo
Oct 25 2012, 11:04 PM
AV, One thing anyone who knows me and my actions will tell you that I am my own person and do not bow to peer pressure, as you are trying to assert.

Can you tell us about the 18 players in our two deep, who NFL Draft analyst Todd McShay, will likely play in the NFL. When Derek Dooley took the program over, there were maybe 4 NFL players in the two deep, with exception of the freshmen on tge 2010 team.

That alone disproves your theme, meme, and main thrust if this thread.

OK lets assume that you and McShay are correct- and BTW I just posted to Zippy that there are 9 of 11 starters on offense who were 4* players but only Hunter and Richardson were Top 125 players. On defense only Lathers and Waggoner were 3* players with ALL the others being 4* players. But again, only complete bust Jaques Smith and true FR McNeill were Top 125 players.

So yes, we do have mid level 4* players in the 125-300 ranked range and other teams DID recruit these guys.

So why are they 1-14 in the last 15 SEC games?

So why do they play like Keystone Kops much of the time? I gave you several examples of this Keystone Kop play against MSU. I don't recall you saying 1 single word about it.

So IF they have some mid level 4* talent all over the field and IF they play like Keystone Kops and have a 1-14 SEC record to show for it. THEN it simply HAS to be coaching. IMO we have 2 of the very worst Coordinators out there in Tard Cut & Buddy Hackett.

Summary- while you may look at yourself as "logical" and "objective" it certainly doesn't seem that way when you are SILENT about all the screw ups we see on the field with supposedly talented players, poorly Motivated players, and the mounting LOSSES on the field. You DO realize we are the LAST PLACE SEC team as far as Record since the start of the 2011 season???? Kensucky wins the tiebreaker with, I think, the same record in the SEC since they beat us. That just is NOT acceptable but I haven't seen a peep out of you in criticism of Dooley. In fact I see just the 100% OPPOSITE. i see excuses and blame Fulmer rants. Very similar to the failed Presidency of Obama- ask for more time and blame Bush at every chance.
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*Zippy
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Burning Man, 2009 FOREVER

I really dont know if the 3rd down stupidity is on Cheney or on Bray.
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AtlantaVol


OrangeRev
Oct 26 2012, 07:38 AM
AtlantaVol
Oct 25 2012, 10:09 PM
Take again the OL that zippy was saying is so much better. I clearly said above that for 2013 you have SR's in Bullard, Stone, James, and Fulton to go with JR Richardson. Good enough starting OL and better than when he got here- although Fulton and James were technically Kiffin recruits.

But behind them in 2013 we have SO's in Posey, Kerbyson, and Crowder with JR Jackson.

Behind these guys there is NO ONE since Drool's didn't sign an OL player in 2012. Not one!!!!

And currently in 2013 class he has ONE guy listed as an OL player.

So technically you are correct- he leaves the new HC in 2013 with a better OL than the one when he got there. But it is a ticking timebomb for 2014 with maybe 5 OL on the team except for who we sign as FR in 2014.
The OL situation is not a problem.

(1) For the 2012 class, the OL was at the bottom of all positions with regard to recruiting. Simply put, the reason that we did not sign an OL to the 2012 class is because we had MANY other higher priority positions that needed to be filled. At most, I thought we might sign one last year (Andrew Jelks) and once he committed to Vandy but we really only courted a few and perhaps Joey O'Conner was the most likely. But, because we needed to focus elsewhere in 2012, it is not a big deal that no OL positions were signed.
(2) The distribution of OL across eligibility classes is what you need to look at, and not merely consider what class they signed. The distribution looks like this for 2013 and it is a very healthy distribution of players across eligibility classes:

FreshmenSophomoresJuniorsSeniors
A. Sanders (4*)
D. Skipper (3*)
B. Kendrick (3*)
R. Koehler (4*)
A. Posey (3*)
K. Kerbyson (3*)
M. Crowder (3*)
A. Richardson (4*)
M. Pair (3*)
M. Jackson (4*)
J. James (4*)
Z. Fulton (3*)
A Bullard (4*)
J. Stone (4*)


(3) I don't know why you think that we only have one guy committed to the O-line in the 2013 class. We have 3 verbals and Koehler is a heavy lean to the Vols. The only tweek I would make to our OL situation is that I believe that we need to sign 5 this year (and I know that Pittman is attempting to find another possibility out there, but no one is really likely at this point).
I told wagee in another post- the CAK guy and the 6'10" guy from CO will be dumped by the new HC before signing day. They aren't SEC OL. And now you are counting a guy from Hawaii as committed when he isn't.

And finally I agree that 2013 is fine on the OL and have never said differently. but 2014 looks like a possible disaster since no one was signed in the 2012 class and so far we have ONE legit SEC OL commit for 2013 class.
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*OrangeRev
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Tree hug'n, bleed'n heart, lazy luv'n, global warm'n token liberal

AtlantaVol
Oct 26 2012, 08:24 AM
I told wagee in another post- the CAK guy and the 6'10" guy from CO will be dumped by the new HC before signing day. They aren't SEC OL. And now you are counting a guy from Hawaii as committed when he isn't.

And finally I agree that 2013 is fine on the OL and have never said differently. but 2014 looks like a possible disaster since no one was signed in the 2012 class and so far we have ONE legit SEC OL commit for 2013 class.
Until NSD, the 2013 class is all speculation.
  • Kendrick will not be dropped ... you don't do that to a local kid ... so, whether you like him or not, he's a Vol. He has SEC size, but honestly I don't know whether or not he is SEC material because I haven't seen any film on him. Have you? Upon what do you base your opinion?
  • Every evaluation I've seen on Skipper is that he is SEC material. His height seems at first glance to be a problem, but everything I've read has stated that he can get low and get leverage, so I'm comfortable with the commitment and that it will stick. If you watch his Jr. film linked on the front page of this site, you see that he moves well in pass protection and he absolutely dominates in run blocking ... of course that's high school ... but, that's what we have.
  • Koehler is more committed to the Vols than many of our other verbals. The only reason he isn't listed anywhere is simply because he wants to make his announcement on national TV at the Army AA game.
Edited by OrangeRev, Oct 26 2012, 09:28 AM.
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*JollyVolly
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A Very Manly Man

I agree with Zip....Bray's not finding the receivers if they're not primary. His M.O. is to lock on to the primary and if he's not open throw it anyway. And if he's really not open chuck it in the stands.

Unless he's just looking for a paycheck, Bray would be NUTS to leave after this year. He's got a lot of growing up and learning still to do........
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*JollyVolly
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A Very Manly Man

eh....to answer AV's question....yes, we'll be much better off. Not to say we're where we need to be....but the talent and depth is without a question superior to what is was. To argue other wise is laughably silly.

I really hate how this is playing out....with the rumors about Dooley having to win out. It casts a dark shadow over the entire program to the point where it makes us even less likely to upset SC. I'm going to the game, and I'm prepared to watch a bloodbath, as I think certain individuals will roll over bigtime knowing the future is so uncertain. I hope I'm wrong.

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*Zippy
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Burning Man, 2009 FOREVER

JollyVolly
Oct 26 2012, 09:44 AM
Not to say we're where we need to be....but the talent and depth is without a question superior to what is was. To argue other wise is laughably silly.
That.

Arguing otherwise takes willful suspension of disbelief to a level that would even embarrass Hillary Clinton.
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AtlantaVol


JollyVolly
Oct 26 2012, 09:44 AM
eh....to answer AV's question....yes, we'll be much better off. Not to say we're where we need to be....but the talent and depth is without a question superior to what is was. To argue other wise is laughably silly.

I really hate how this is playing out....with the rumors about Dooley having to win out. It casts a dark shadow over the entire program to the point where it makes us even less likely to upset SC. I'm going to the game, and I'm prepared to watch a bloodbath, as I think certain individuals will roll over bigtime knowing the future is so uncertain. I hope I'm wrong.

Maybe it is Semantics but I just don't see the "much better off" claims. The ONLY way you can say that is for you all to ALSO say our Coaching is at rock bottom in the SEC because 1 win (Candy) in the SEC since 2011 season started is the FACTS we must go on. And as you say we are likely to lose to USCe to continue this SEC disaster.

So either we are NOT "much better off" or the Coaching is the pits. I don't see how anyone can claim that our talent is "much better off" and then continue on like Tux and Wagee do that the Coaching is also "much better off". That isn't logical.
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*TennesseeTuxedo
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AV, you started this thread by accusing Dooley of leaving the UT football program's talent in worse shape than when he inherited it. You were called out and proven ridiculously incorrect on that by everyone.

Now you want to turn it into a pissing contest over whether someone is a Dooley nutswinger. Make your mind up about what you want to discuss. Start another thread on that and I will enjoin you in discussion.

As to this thread and it's original accusation, you were proven completely erroneous.
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humbletx


JollyVolly
Oct 26 2012, 09:44 AM
eh....to answer AV's question....yes, we'll be much better off. Not to say we're where we need to be....but the talent and depth is without a question superior to what is was. To argue other wise is laughably silly.

I really hate how this is playing out....with the rumors about Dooley having to win out. It casts a dark shadow over the entire program to the point where it makes us even less likely to upset SC. I'm going to the game, and I'm prepared to watch a bloodbath, as I think certain individuals will roll over bigtime knowing the future is so uncertain. I hope I'm wrong.

The vague "are we better off" on a comparative basis is so vague.

the simple answer is yes.

If the better off includes winning games within the conference - the answer changes.

If the better off is focused on recruiting - and winning games within the conference - the answer changes.

There are a number of guys here that hang everything on recruiting. Now as well as Dooley has recruited - this remains a results driven conference. A couple weeks ago with all this recruiting talent - as well as numerous comments how Tennessee was a more talented team (starting with Florida - then Mississippi State) the Volunteers found a way to lose to lesser talented teams.

As we better today to compete for a SECE championship?

IMO Tennessee is in a good position to win 7 to 9 games year in and out - as long as there are 3 to 4 cups on the schedule.
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*Zippy
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Burning Man, 2009 FOREVER

AtlantaVol
Oct 26 2012, 10:10 AM
Maybe it is Semantics but I just don't see the "much better off" claims.
Then you are nuts. The roster is light years better than it was when Dooley got here (which says more about what Dooley inherited than what Dooley is leaving).

I'm not going to argue about the coaching comment, because at this point I'd tend to agree.
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