Lara's Shadow Discussion

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Lara's Shadow Discussion; MASSIVE SPOILERS! BEWARE!
Topic Started: Mar 10 2009, 11:35 PM (488 Views)
Spong	Mar 12 2009, 08:36 PM Post #16
King of Everything Posts: 229 Group: Honorary Moderators Member #15 Joined: Sep 3, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Male	@Randy Just a quick response to your release query before I reply to everything eles that's been said in this thread. Tomb Raider Underworld was released in North America on March 3rd, you should have no trouble finding a copy. Okay, the exclusivity thing... Eidos has paid the price for that by allowing Microsoft to woo them into an exclusivity deal. But Microsoft isn't to blame for the fiasco, had they not approached Eidos with the proposal in the first place what would have happened? Would Eidos & Crystal have released Beneath the Ashes and Lara's Shadow for all platforms? I don't think so. Eidos was in financial dire straits, that's why Underworld was released early in the first place, they certainly wouldn't have had the ability to produce extra content of any worth under their own steam. They simply grabbed what they could to stay afloat, it was a bad choice but it was their only choice. Eric Lindstrom said after he was laid off that they hadn't even considered extra content before Microsoft approached them, and when they did, they went back and capitalised on content that had already been cut from the game during development. I personally think the best we'd have got had Microsoft not stepped in was a load of pointless costume packs (sigh) for all systems. @Lil I don't think your argument about exclusivity back in the days of the PSOne Tomb Raiders really stands. What other machine were they competing against? The Saturn? That was a miserable machine and was in no way any kind of competition to the PSOne. It was badly constructed, poorly supported by Sega and was a dog to develop for because the chip architecture was so bad (two separate GPU's to produce a single image? What's that about?). The PSOne absolutely hammered that black breeze block (or cinder block in the US) into the ground. Yes, it's a fair point to say that the Saturn was the machine Tomb Raider originally appeared on, and I too get kind of riled by people saying the franchise was a Sony exclusive from the word go. It's amazing how so few of these fanboys realise that Sony initially turned Tomb Raider down, but after the first TR, there really wasn't any other machine worth developing the game for. To be honest, I think Sony jumped the gun in paying to make TR a PSOne exclusive, the game would have inevitably gone that way anyway. @Rai Cue lots of quoting... Rai ...I really can't see how she can be developed further as a character The Doppelgänger's character needs no further development, she's perfect as she is. If crystal develop her character she'll only end up going the same way as Lara, and that's a bad thing in my eyes. While she might not fit into a game because of her drone nature, she's the personification of the Lara that Core first gave us. At the very least, I want that characterisation transposed back on to the actual Lara. And if Crystal can't do that, then in my opinion, it's time to put the series out to pasture because the current Lara leaves me feeling completely cold. Rai Does she have Lara's knowledge and expertise? Maybe not the knowledge, but her expertise far exceeds Lara's. Had Lara not uttered the magical "Ohk Eshivar" in Lara's Shadow to control the Doppelgänger, do you think Lara would've had the expertise to defeat her in a battle? Had she even come close to beating her in previous encounters? In fact, you contradicted your own statement in saying "She could come in handy for reaching those places that even Lara cant reach and for combat purposes...". Rai I see her [Doppelgänger] as quite one dimensional; someone who has little purpose in life now. This is the first and only time she's appeared in this form, to say she's one-dimensional is being a little pre-judgemental. What I saw in the Doppelgänger was a glint of what used to be, of what could be if Crystal continue to use her in the future. Rai If she were to return in a future game, how would she be used as part of the plot? Don't look at me, I'm not the lead writer at Crystal. But I'd say there's every possibility to utilise her again. On the whole, Lara's Shadow has left everybody in a bit of an odd place. While the argument still stands that Eidos made the biggest mistake ever in making the DLC exclusive to 360, I now think we have a lot to thank them for because the series is at one hell of a crossroads and Crystal could do just sooo many good things from this point. Edited by Spong, Mar 12 2009, 10:30 PM.



lilhanhan	Mar 13 2009, 03:22 AM Post #17
Cookie Captor! ^.~ Posts: 236 Group: Moderators Member #6 Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR2 Male or Female Female	Randy Mar 12 2009, 06:59 PM So, because I own a Playstation 2, I don't even know what the doppelganger is after all of these years of playing those games. Now, does THAT seem fair? @ lilhanhan: don't be annoyed over my comments, we are all friends here. No it isn't; like I said before, I feel that the extras should be available for everyone. What I'm trying to get at is that the majority of playstation owners are saying that it's unfair that only 360 owners get the DLC, but are then saying how they are the ONLY ones who deserve it. I wouldn't be annoyed if they said that they also want the DLC's along with 360 owners (like a few do), but the majority say that it's unfair for a group to be left out and then go and state that they wish to be the only platform who have them; what happened to it being unfair for leaving a group out? I'm not just blaming PS3 owners for attitude like this, these days, arguments like this happens all the time. As for the Saturn thing; yes, the Saturn wasn't the best console (and hardly competition for the Playstation) but TR was a good game on that console, maybe if we saw TR2 on it also, it could have helped the Saturn live a bit longer? Who knows (well, probably not but you see were I'm coming from)... ^.^; I was just listing everytime a company has had some sort of exclusive; just to show that it's not the first time in TR history that some group as managed to get a better deal. I hope this post makes sense, I'm half asleep this morning!



Singstar90210	Mar 13 2009, 12:06 PM Post #18
TR Mythbuster, Avid 007 Fan, Fanpire, and Official OMwD Patient Posts: 1,040 Group: Admins Member #14 Joined: Aug 27, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Female	Lara's Shadow looks really good. There's only two official cutscenes and I like that it's a bit more simple. I've only watched vids of the game so my views may be a bit flawed or inaccurate. Overall, Crystal did pick a modest image of the traps under Croft Manor. But I think what got me the most was the unexpected plot twist - The DOPPELGANGER's sent back to Natla by LARA! I thought Natla would be dead with Mjolnir but apparently she's a lot harder to kill off. I mean, Lara used a weapon that can start a Ragnarok and the legend even claims that it could kill gods and yet she's still alive anyway? But I knew that the Doppelganger definitely didn't die because she fell into the eitr (that water stuff that was in the final level, legend says that it's Jormungandr's poison and it can turn a person - dead or living - into a reanimated being) so now she's practically a zombie and can easily be influenced. Sorry if I'm going into hyperbole mode... But it was shocking that Lara would actually have that type of mind! Sure we got a glimpse of it in Legend but I'm surprised that she actually went through with it! I hope there isn't a ridiculous complicated storyline with the hero vs villain's soul conflict. Anything could be possible at this point.
	Speak softly and carry a big jo. - O'Leary-Liu


Randy	Mar 13 2009, 08:58 PM Post #19
Raider Posts: 156 Group: Members Member #27 Joined: Dec 14, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR2 Male or Female Male	So everyone, let me clarify my comment about exclusive games for the PS. We can agree that it sounds ridiculous, yes? The point I was trying to make was, it's ridiculous to make a game for only one brand of console no matter what the circumstances are, after making games for all the current consoles, and I am offended by the concept of big corporations again flashing their money in somebody's face to get what they want. Is this what the Tomb Raider franchise has now come to?



Rai	Mar 13 2009, 09:19 PM Post #20
Raider on the run Posts: 49 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR:A Male or Female Female	okay, my answers in bold then. Sorry for doing it this way, I'm not so good at the multi quote thing. Spong Mar 12 2009, 08:36 PM The Doppelgänger's character needs no further development, she's perfect as she is. If crystal develop her character she'll only end up going the same way as Lara, and that's a bad thing in my eyes. While she might not fit into a game because of her drone nature, she's the personification of the Lara that Core first gave us. At the very least, I want that characterisation transposed back on to the actual Lara. And if Crystal can't do that, then in my opinion, it's time to put the series out to pasture because the current Lara leaves me feeling completely cold. I like the doppel but she isn't developed enough for me to warm to her. I like lara as she is, I like her having many personality traits. The doppel is fun for a short time, but I wouldn't want her all the time. You are right in saying that if Crystal were to develop Miss D further, she would be even more like Lara than she already is. They are not so different. Lara was led by an obsession to find answers, Miss D was only following orders. Their similarity comes in what they would choose to do being free (of slavery or obsession), which was, in this case, to destroy Natla or at the very least 'make her suffer'. Lara has a complex personality developed over time, which Miss D doesn't have, being so new. Her character may have been a homage to Core's Lara, but she has no purpose now, she doesn't need to exist. Lara is who she is and can still develop further. Maybe not the knowledge, but her expertise far exceeds Lara's. Had Lara not uttered the magical "Ohk Eshivar" in Lara's Shadow to control the Doppelgänger, do you think Lara would've had the expertise to defeat her in a battle? Had she even come close to beating her in previous encounters? In fact, you contradicted your own statement in saying "She could come in handy for reaching those places that even Lara cant reach and for combat purposes...". You have a point when it comes to Lara v. Miss D (from now, this is my name for her, I feel odd calling her Doppelgänger, now she is free). In the cutscenes, Miss D seemed the more powerful and did win in a fight. However, and perhaps surprisingly combat is so much harder in Lara's Shadow. Miss D takes an age to defeat the thralls. There are a mixture of thralls, some regular ones and some that are heavily armoured, even the yeti thralls. Yeti thralls (less armoured ones) take twice as many bullets as in TRU, even with Miss D's special power-up. Lara it seems made an easier job of it. Also, the melee combat seemed harder too, again, even with the doppel power, which was quite fun, Miss D took longer than Lara to flatten them. I dunno, my control in combat has always been bad, but my son, who is definitely better, also found combat difficult in LS compared to in TRU. And yet, on occasion, the extra power punch or kick came in useful, I think it was inconsistent. I wasn't just talking about combat, I was thinking about traversing the locations. True, Miss D is faster and stronger, being able to climb walls that Lara wouldn't be able to (which is what I meant in my quote) at least without a grapple. This is my point. Where Lara uses skill to pass through a trap, or climb, Miss D forces her way through. Her extra power, being used to slow down a trap or/and speed up Miss D was fun and had it's uses, the traps are designed with her in mind. Lara may very well have found an alternative way through. There is one trap which was in TRU and is repeated in LS where this is tested. Maybe they're more equal than I thought then . This is the first and only time she's appeared in this form, to say she's one-dimensional is being a little pre-judgemental. What I saw in the Doppelgänger was a glint of what used to be, of what could be if Crystal continue to use her in the future. Maybe you're right, I'm only seeing her in this one level where her story is so linked to Natla's. I don't know why Crystal should bring back Lara 'as she used to be', I enjoy her progression. If they take away Miss D but use some of her qualities in a new and 'improved' Lara that is. But who is to say Lara, left without her family obsession won't have been effected by her latest experiences and regain some of her old spark anyway - whilst still retaining the qualities she has now? To take this further and replace the current Lara with Miss D and call this new character Lara, what do we have? Core's Lara? I can see a glint of that Lara in her, but even Core's Lara was more dimensional than Miss D. I'm not sure I'd like this Lara back, to be honest. As I said, I prefer the complex Lara we have now who is effected by her experiences. Miss D has a certain charm, but she shouldn't be Lara. Edited by Rai, Mar 13 2009, 10:52 PM.
	When just looking isn't always enough...


Spong	Mar 14 2009, 01:54 AM Post #21
King of Everything Posts: 229 Group: Honorary Moderators Member #15 Joined: Sep 3, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Male	Randy So everyone, let me clarify my comment about exclusive games for the PS. We can agree that it sounds ridiculous, yes? The point I was trying to make was, it's ridiculous to make a game for only one brand of console no matter what the circumstances are, after making games for all the current consoles, and I am offended by the concept of big corporations again flashing their money in somebody's face to get what they want. Is this what the Tomb Raider franchise has now come to? I completely agree with you Randy. Exclusivity is a dinosaur, it's marketing suicide in this day & age. Sticking strictly with Underworld, there's two polls at TRF asking if people enjoyed Beneath the Ashes and Lara's Shadow. To summarise the results here, 26.18% of people enjoyed Beneath the Ashes while 71.16% complained about the exclusivity. 30.23% of people enjoyed Lara's Shadow compared to 68.60% who complained about the exclusivity. To read the comments within each poll it's clear that, while a number certainly liked them, you have to dig those responses out from beneath a comparative mountain of replies from those people who were outraged. It's also interesting to note that both polls were requested by Keir, so it appears that Eidos/Crystal are curious to gauge people's reactions. Hopefully they'll heed the overwhelming majority on this and never do something so stupid again. Rai I like the doppel but she isn't developed enough for me to warm to her. I don't think she's a character that's meant to be warmed to, she's cold-hearted and that's her attraction. Which is what Lara used to be. While you like Lara as Crystal present her now, it's not what she was originally, that much I don't think can be argued. And with the advent of Lara's Shadow, it's caused a split amongst the fans who see the Doppelgänger as a return to that classic Lara. I myself never thought I gave a hoot about Lara when it came to Tomb Raider, but this whole debacle has proved otherwise because, in one little level, I've become kind of besotted with the Doppelgänger and want Crystal to get rid of their Lara (and I'm not the only one, as has been proved in other polls at TRF). Rai ...combat is so much harder in Lara's Shadow. Miss D takes an age to defeat the thralls As I've said elsewhere, this was nothing more than poor player tailoring on Crystal's part, an attempt to make the Lara's Shadow chapter last longer. You can only really base the Doppelgänger's strength from that displayed in the cutscenes. Gameplay is irrelevant because you can adjust the difficulty. How they navigate levels is more of a discussion point though, but I still say the Doppelgänger has the advantage. What's to say she can't be complimented with the same accessories Lara has? But the same can't be said for Lara, there's no way she can ever have the Doppelgänger's abilities. I still think the Doppelgänger would come out on top in that respect. Rai Maybe you're right, I'm only seeing her in this one level where her story is so linked to Natla's. I don't know why Crystal should bring back Lara 'as she used to be', I enjoy her progression. If they take away Miss D but use some of her qualities in a new and 'improved' Lara that is. But who is to say Lara, left without her family obsession won't have been effected by her latest experiences Why does progression have to be defined by the addition of traits? It's that very "progression" that has caused so much trouble amongst the fans as it is. The Anniversay/Legend/Underworld story arc has, in my eyes, damaged the series a great deal because it's turned Lara into this wishy-washy bag of emotions. But like I said in my previous post, Lara's Shadow finally brings a conclusion to the story arc (albeit a conclusion the majority couldn't enjoy), and Crystal are in a position to take the series in any number of directions. I guess you and me are different in what we want that direction to be. Edited by Spong, Mar 14 2009, 05:43 AM.



Rai	Mar 14 2009, 09:20 AM Post #22
Raider on the run Posts: 49 Group: Members Member #3 Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR:A Male or Female Female	Quote: Spong: What's to say she can't be complimented with the same accessories Lara has? But the same can't be said for Lara, there's no way she can ever have the Doppelgänger's abilities. I still think the Doppelgänger would come out on top in that respect. Are you really saying that you'd want to see Lara with these Shadow powers? Really? She never had super human powers before, why bring them in now? Yes, she's always been able to move around in a way that seems impossible, but she's always had a certain realism too. The speed in which Miss D moves is too much imo, Lara moves fast enough and some have said that this no good thing, preferring the slower, more controlled old grid system. Giving Lara the shadow powers would undermine that further. You see Miss D as a personification of Core's Lara, a cold-blooded Killer hell bent on getting what she wants and not caring who or what gets in her way. Is the Doppel really like that now she is freed? Yeah she showed a certain defiance and satisfaction in defeating Natla, but who's to say Lara wouldn't have also? I see no reason to take Lara back to her former self, some of the qualities she showed in the Core games is still there, but her character is fleshed out more. I guess you are right, we have differing views on where her character could be taken now. But as I said, maybe now Lara is free [from her obsession], some of that old spark will return?. There are so many ways in which Crystal could take the series, and Lara.
	When just looking isn't always enough...


Spong	Mar 15 2009, 06:08 AM Post #23
King of Everything Posts: 229 Group: Honorary Moderators Member #15 Joined: Sep 3, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Male	Rai Are you really saying that you'd want to see Lara with these Shadow powers? Really? She never had super human powers before, why bring them in now? No no, you've misread. I said that it's very conceivable for the Doppelgänger to have Lara's abilities and accessories, but it wouldn't be believable at all if it were the other way around. The Doppelgänger can get herself a grapple and an army of weapons, but Lara couldn't possibly "learn" the shadow powers. Rai You see Miss D as a personification of Core's Lara, a cold-blooded Killer hell bent on getting what she wants and not caring who or what gets in her way. Is the Doppel really like that now she is freed? Who knows, let's put her in another game and find out. That was part of the point I raised when i said that one tiny level with her as the main protagonist wasn't enough. Rai I see no reason to take Lara back to her former self, some of the qualities she showed in the Core games is still there, but her character is fleshed out more. I guess you are right, we have differing views on where her character could be taken now. But as I said, maybe now Lara is free [from her obsession], some of that old spark will return?. There are so many ways in which Crystal could take the series, and Lara. I completely understand why you'd want Lara to continue the way she is, hundreds (probably thousands) of people are right there with you in that opinion. But I'm not. And that's why we're here in this thread Edited by Spong, Mar 15 2009, 06:09 AM.



Tessa	Mar 15 2009, 07:32 AM Post #24
TheTimeTravelingVampire Posts: 1,334 Group: Admins Member #1 Joined: Aug 23, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Female	I'm sorry to go off topic, and I've only read like almost all of the thread, but Spong was talking about how "the Doppelgänger's character needs no further development." This is really stupid, but what if they were to kill off Lara, and put Dopple hoe in her place? (Sorry for going so off topic. ) Edited by Tessa, Mar 15 2009, 08:36 AM.



Singstar90210	Mar 15 2009, 10:26 AM Post #25
TR Mythbuster, Avid 007 Fan, Fanpire, and Official OMwD Patient Posts: 1,040 Group: Admins Member #14 Joined: Aug 27, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Female	It's OK. I'm going in circles... Then again I haven't really played it yet! But I totally agree with Randy and Spong's beginning comments and I really hate exclusives for a single console. It's going to force people to go to extraneous levels just to find out what plot holes are the creators want to leave on the PS and Wii owners. It's just depressing.
	Speak softly and carry a big jo. - O'Leary-Liu


Lara's Shadow	Mar 15 2009, 10:27 AM Post #26
Legend Of Lara Posts: 43 Group: Members Member #33 Joined: Feb 1, 2009 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Female	Tessa Mar 15 2009, 07:32 AM I'm sorry to go off topic, and I've only read like almost all of the thread, but Spong was talking about how "the Doppelgänger's character needs no further development." This is really stupid, but what if they were to kill off Lara, and put Dopple hoe in her place? (Sorry for going so off topic. ) *Noes!*



Singstar90210	Mar 15 2009, 12:42 PM Post #27
TR Mythbuster, Avid 007 Fan, Fanpire, and Official OMwD Patient Posts: 1,040 Group: Admins Member #14 Joined: Aug 27, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Female	Oh my... Shocker! tries to imagine
	Speak softly and carry a big jo. - O'Leary-Liu


Singstar90210	Mar 17 2009, 04:41 PM Post #28
TR Mythbuster, Avid 007 Fan, Fanpire, and Official OMwD Patient Posts: 1,040 Group: Admins Member #14 Joined: Aug 27, 2008 Your favorite TR? TR1 Male or Female Female	I think it was my mental mistake. I mixed up Lara's Shadow with Beneath the Ashes. I can't believe I did that! Then again, I was exhausted... Lara's Shadow was excellent! The combat looked pretty rough, but the storyline was awesome! I liked the ending. Natla finally dies! That was clever what Lara did for the Doppleganger. The line exchange was really good, especially when the Doppelganger asks WLWD. The death scene and the Doppleganger's final stare really caught me. Now I really wish I had my big bro's modifications! Edited by Singstar90210, Mar 17 2009, 04:53 PM.
	Speak softly and carry a big jo. - O'Leary-Liu


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