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Carmen Taylor Answers Questions
Topic Started: Apr 23 2009, 05:01 AM (14,303 Views)
heidimarie

Achimspok: Our ferry was docked and didn't move. I was at the tip front end. Michael was behind me about 20 feet. He said it flew directly over his head from behind him.

How much time elapsed from 175's appearance on the above tracking to impact (the green dots)?

Thanks....tgc c
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achimspok

OK, so apparently one of these two shots isn't shot by you but probably by Michael.
I found it by google your name. Funny that I found out that "you reached exactly Michaels position".

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You are right! According two your series the ferry doesn't move.

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If you say that you were at the tip then the ferry pointed towards east.
If it was docked then you and Michael were a little closer but higher.
For a docked ferry the distance between you and Michael should be 8.9 m / 29 ft,
the height of the cameras should be about 6 m / 19ft above the water,
just like that:
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green - Michael / red - you

your view
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Michael's view
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If you say you had to turn your head to the left to see the plane coming in then you was turned towards Michael = towards the rear = towards west.
In the videos the plane becomes visible 12 sec prior to the impact. With your own eyes you might have seen it long before that.

The reason is simply the same as I described for the tiny pieces of debris and the columns.
The distant plane was smaller than one pixel of the camera resolution. Any compression method would simply wipe the plane pixel out off the sky.
So the only possibility to photograph the plane earlier was to zoom in. At the same time you may be would get a problem to locate the plane in your view finder. I would believe you if you say that you saw the plane 1 minute before the impact or more.

You asked about the green dots. The bigger green dot is the (wrong) position of the last blip of the Rades radar data.
As far as I know, these data can have a failure of about one mile.
The GIF-Animation of the flight path is in real time ->> one frame = one second for the last 12 seconds.

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achimspok

Btw, Michael's impression that the plane came from behind and flew over his head is believable.
The plane was much to low for Manhattan so it appeared much bigger than you would see a plane in that area usually.
The plane was much to fast - lot of noise.
It passed 400m / 1300ft west of your position and was at an altitude of 350m / 1150ft.
You would have to look about 45° upwards see the plane in that moment and it was really close for a plane.
On the other hand, Michaels video shows that it came in from left/west of him and btw his video is consistent with all other videos I saw so far.

Using a 100mm lens the plane would have looked this way in the moment it passed you.
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Using the 200mm lens as Michael...
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May be that explains the impression.
Edited by achimspok, Aug 4 2009, 05:38 AM.
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broken sticks
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achimspok
Aug 4 2009, 05:37 AM

May be that explains the impression.
You might be on to something there. Excellent work achimspok - excellent. I'm looking forward to carmen's response too!
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achimspok

Btw, Michael shot the burning towers prior to the impact. He panned just a moment before the plane "passed" (from his perspective) behind Athletics Club. This happened about 0.5 seconds prior to the impact. I tend to believe that he saw the plane just in that moment (or may be a split second earlier) and may be just heard it from behind and above of his head.
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heidimarie

Ahhimspok: WOW…this is exciting!

(Jeff, would you please edit and insert the above picture of Battery Park and the two ferries here. Also add links to pgs 10, 11 or just insert the pictures of me pointing and the page link that shows the “mirrors” of my sequence of photos. Thank you always!!!)


The ferries in the picture are not docked. On pgs 10, 11, there are pictures of me in NYC in January of 2004 standing by a docked ferry pointing towards the Towers.

Page 10:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpitout/topic/1546649/10/
Page 11:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpitout/topic/1546649/11/

Using your picture of Battery Park, do the following:

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1.Put a ferry alongside the “dock” which is sticking out near Clinton Castle.

2.Put me at the tip pointed end of the ferry. I am sitting, feet on rail, upper body slightly turned right toward Towers, taking pictures.

3.Michael is behind me on same deck, but perhaps on a level one or two feet above me. He is standing. I am sitting.


This is the sequence of how I took the picture:

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4.I feel vibrations, “hear” drone of plane, turn my head slightly to the left, but NOT over my shoulder and see speck of plane, low on horizon, on other side of river heading directly toward Towers.

Quotes from my old essay posted previously telling how I set up the shot. Perhaps this can help judge how much time went by from when I first saw 175 to when I took the picture:

5.…” I still held my camera steady, strap wrapped around my palm so I wouldn't drop it. The plane was heading directly for the South Tower and I couldn't think of any reason for it to change course. This would make an interesting picture and give me something sane and calming to do while the plane moved in closer. There was plenty of time for me to set up the shot…

6.…” The North and South Towers were already centered on the Sony's scratched, sun-washed screen, perhaps a little too close, though, not allowing enough foreground or locators. Backing off a bit and widening the frame helped open up and better identify the scene. This might even make a good picture. The clear, blue sky was a beautiful backdrop and the red brick building in the foreground was a nice contrast. The helicopter should add some interest and a bit of action…

7.“…Bracing myself tighter, I steadied the camera and held the shutter halfway. My body swayed with the ferry…

8.“…I mechanically tracked the airplane with my peripheral vision and centered my attention on the viewfinder as the plane traveled its low, precise course which lined up perfectly with the South Tower of the World Trade Center."

This essay description was written from fresh, raw memory…not stories I had heard about how I should have or couldn’t have taken the picture. I trust this memory but do not understand it.

Thank you for helping put this together.

TGC C
Edited by shure, Aug 4 2009, 11:52 AM.
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seatnineb

@Carmen

thanks for responding.....but i guess in the time i asked you the question about where you saw the plane approach from.....achimspok has done some terrific analysis on your testimony

Having said that i took screen captures of where you think you saw the plane approach from and labeled 3 different possible locations in the sky where the plane could have been seen by you.....

was the plane in any one of these locations?......or have i got it wrong......by all means say so if i have......and if you are any good with foto shop......do you think you could insert a spot or an x in the image to give a rough idea where you think you saw it...
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thanks again in advance
Edited by seatnineb, Aug 4 2009, 04:11 PM.
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achimspok

Subject: Metallic taste from dust

Sorry, I didn't read this before. There might be a simple explanation of that. Different institutes analyzed dust samples from the collapses, e.g. the United States Geological Survey forensics team. All of them found iron micro spheres in all samples. There is only one explanation for iron micro spheres! The iron must be fluid / molten. Under this conditions (only) the surface tension will form spheres. No (known) fire in the towers was hot enough to melt iron (2800°F) and iron isn't steel. Iron is the product of e.g. a thermite reaction. No other plausible explanation so far.

Posted Image

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seatnineb

BTW

welcome Achimspok.....been an admirer of your work for some time.......this forum is all the better for having you here!
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achimspok

tried the ferry position in Google Earth. Fits pretty good.
try a placemark at 40°42'7.15"N 74° 0'59.97"W at 6m altitude ans look around in 3D view.

looks like that:
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the look to the left and the approach of the plane should have looked like that:
Notice the statue of liberty
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[BTW some people are sometimes astonished about the dive that didn't look like a dive.
The flight path represented by these pins starts with a dive of 50m/s (164ft/s).
Of course the plane is still far away and therefore the angle seems to be small. Just an illusion.
You would need to free fall for 5.1sec to reach the speed of that dive but as long as the plane
goes 500mph forwards at the same time the resulting angle doesn't look that scary.

the thick white stick above the green "Carmen" represents the G-point of the NTSB data.
This is the position of the plane 5 minutes prior to the impact at an altitude of 25000ft.]

(Thanks for a lot of welcomes!)
Edited by achimspok, Aug 4 2009, 05:23 PM.
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YougeneDebs
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Thank you, achimspok, for the wonderful interpretation of data. I especially like the G-point reference; fantastic!

I also tried to locate the point of perspective for Carmen’s famous picture and came to these coordinates:

40 deg 42 min 08.00 sec N 74 deg 01 min 00.59 sec W

My estimate for elevation of camera is 15 feet, based on the picture of Carmen and ferry taken in 2004 and assuming a similar boat was used in 2001.

Thanks for all your work!

Debs
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achimspok

Well Yougene, your result is pretty much the same.
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YougeneDebs
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I noticed a picture among the 12 submitted by Carmen that seems to support the more northerly position; it’s labeled “mikescomputer-CT-10”, (CT10) and can be found about half-page in this post:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpitout/single/?p=449423&t=1546649

Here is a picture showing the antennae/lightning rod thingie that sits in the lower left of CT10, as well as the other buildings looking up West Street (or, 12th Ave, depending on the source):
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/6631093.jpg

Near as I can figure, CT10 was taken on dry land about here:

40 deg 42 min 14.44 sec N
74 deg 01 min 03.10sec W

It’s near the pier where she says she was, but it’s over 600 feet NW of the plane shot.

Does that help?

Debs
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heidimarie

SB9, Debs and Spok...getting close. Pg 10, SB9 shows a picture with a "blip" for 175 which is a really close interpretation of how it's approach seemed

Jeff, could you find the "mirrors" of my pictures and re-post them here. I don't think the "mike's computer" sequence is the same one. Also somewhere, I sent you the times on each image which might help distinguish between those taken on the ferry and any I may have taken of the towers after I got off the ferry. I know they're here somewhere, but I can't find them. Thanks.

tgc C
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shure
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"mirrors"
http://www.mirrors.org/historical/2001-09-11-World-Trade_Center/wtc/tabby/

8 2:53:30
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9 2:53:34
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10 2:53:40

11 2:53:52
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12 2:54:14
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13 2:55:04

14 2:56:40

15 3:06:16

16 3:06:42

17 3:07:12
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18 3:09:38 Moment of Impact
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19 3:09:44 Today Our Nation Saw Evil
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20 3:09:50
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21 3:09:56

22 3:10:12

23 3:10:58

24 3:14:12
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25 Statue of Liberty

26 3:22:36
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27 3:22:54
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28 3:23:02

29 3:38:02
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