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| Explosions in the Towers | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 3 2009, 09:19 PM (255 Views) | |
| Quantumflux432 | Nov 3 2009, 09:19 PM Post #1 |
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The NIST report mentions a "pressure pulse" in the North tower at 10:18. http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201-5A%20Ch%201-8.pdf Page 349 of 392 to 353 of 392 It's also seen at CNN http://www.archive.org/details/cnn200109111011-1053?start=439.5 Also an explosion in the South Tower at 9:37. http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201-5A%20Chap%209_Appx%20C.pdf Page 50 of 268 |
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| achimspok | Nov 4 2009, 04:26 AM Post #2 |
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  Looks like at least 5 floor were involved (upwards!) and just the north side. A local collapse should go downwards, isn't it? The tilting to the south 10 minutes later is a little mystery and a little bigger now. The description of the "small explosion" in the WTC2 tower reminds me to the darting flames shooting out off the middle of the south side of the north tower about 4 seconds in the WTC2 collapse and immediately followed by an extreme fire. (As far as I know not mentioned in the NIST report) |
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| achimspok | Nov 4 2009, 12:28 PM Post #3 |
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 here is a psd file for a better resolution 9:48am ... 9:59am: a small fire in the NE corner of floor 92. That fire died down with the WTC2 collapse. For the next 18 minutes no visible fire activity on the north side below floor 97. At floor 97 no visible fire but smoke from the impact hole. 10:18am: after the pressure pulse a huge fire spread through the floor 92 and around the NW corner to the south. Very strange: The north side of the floor above (93) seems to be unaffected all the time since at least 9:34. No fire no smoke. Earlier fires died down earlier. NIST ignored the fire at 92.  |
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| Quantumflux432 | Nov 4 2009, 01:49 PM Post #4 |
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"tilting to the south". Are you talking about the whole north tower? It also mentions at page 352 of http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/PDF/NCSTAR%201-5A%20Ch%201-8.pdf that there was a puff at the south side and theres a picture of It in the next page. At page 356 theres a clear image of the puff of black smoke 16 second's before the "collapse" |
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| achimspok | Nov 4 2009, 05:41 PM Post #5 |
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I'am talking about the upper floors (above 98). That part tilted to the south for about 1 floor down before the north face broke and the whole thing went down. That collapse is somehow strange because the upper block rotated (as far as visible) around an axis along the damaged north face. In other words, that damaged wall was the major resistance against a rotation around the center of mass while the core had to shorten half the height of a floor. It seems to be reasonable to say that there was no core anymore that could resist anyhow. |
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| peterene | Nov 4 2009, 07:36 PM Post #6 |
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Uhm, what do we know, we don't know the exact state of building. So far it seems that this was due to a big partial collapse of the core, south floor system shouldn't cause that. |
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| achimspok | Nov 4 2009, 11:03 PM Post #7 |
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No, south floor system could not cause this. The smoke on 92 came from the whole width of the core and no plane part has took away the core at 92. The south floor system might have caused some from the sides or a hallway or on the visible west side but instead... Btw, there is a little local smoke spot right in the middle of the west face at 92 or 93 - probably a hallway through the core. |
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| peterene | Nov 7 2009, 07:58 PM Post #8 |
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Achimspok, is it possible to track the motion of the antenna during the partial collapse? |
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| achimspok | Nov 8 2009, 02:59 AM Post #9 |
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No result for the archive.org video. May be a full resolution video could show what happens. Btw, here are some pictures from an unreleased North Tower chapter. I never released it because there are some late aerials that show the antenna straight up. On the other hand there is at least one aerial that confirms the movement of the antenna.  According to the laws of perspective, all parallel lines meet in a distant point. It works pretty good for all buildings of Manhattan. Only one exclusion: The antenna of the north tower should be aligned with the blue -1.5° line but... 
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| peterene | Nov 8 2009, 11:57 AM Post #10 |
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So, Do you think that the evidence for southern tilt is conclusive or no? Anyway, we should discuss it along with the "explosion", inward bowing and the dust jets on that forum...... |
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| achimspok | Nov 8 2009, 01:45 PM Post #11 |
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I think it is conclusive. I didn't know about that "pressure pulse" so I was not sure how the WTC2 collapse should have started a slow tilt to the south. A major damage to the core could have caused it. That damage could have been somehow symmetrically. I guess I saw a photograph of the west side somewhere in the NIST report that shows smoke also at the south face. Of course a movement of the antenna is expectable. An early destruction of the core was reported by numerous firefigthers e.g. John Schroeder but it lacks of photographic evidence to prove it. The New Jersey photos are the best source I found. I exclude a movement due to the north wind stresses because there is now sway of the tower visible. A distortion due to the photographic lens should also affect the towers. Finally the Aman Zafar photos are not that good to be certain but good enough to take a 1° tilt into account and may be a later tilt back prior to the collapse. That tilt cannot be the result of the inward bowing! A 55 inches inward bowing could cause a sagging of the south face for just some inches. The corners didn't bow at all. Hence, the tilt of the roof would not exceed an angle of 0.12° and that would be invisible even in the HiRes photos. If a 1° tilting occurred than it was a direct effect of the movement of the core and probably that movement caused the inward bowing but not vice versa.  You see there is a change in the perspective and a small distortion near the borders. I tried to find the most stable layering for the vertical axis of the north tower. A 1° rotation of the picture would be obvious near the edges of the pictures as well as along the vertical lines of the towers.  There is also some "growing/sagging" effect that need a second careful look. I might be caused by the change of perspective but it also could be a real sagging of the antenna. One should handle these observations carefully to not jump into conclusions. But something happened up there that's for sure. And if you watch the smoke it looks like the "sagging" antenna pressed out the smoke that occurred after the pressure pulse on the west side. Edited by achimspok, Nov 8 2009, 01:49 PM.
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| peterene | Nov 8 2009, 08:32 PM Post #12 |
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It's always nice to see that you have someone who can understand you at that level.  Of course, those pesky "out of service for There can be no doubt about the fact that parts of the south core area collapsed at the time of WTC2 collapse. As I understand it the aicraft impact caused a northward tilt, too? The west side smoke behaviour is interesting. Maybe it was related to the overal pressure changes after the WTC2 collapse? Or did the core collapse open a new ways for the smoke inside the building???? EDIT: But someone would have seen them!!!! Someone would have talked by now!!!!! But everyone wants to expose their famillies! Everyone one has so high moral standart!! Everyone wants to end up under death injection!!!!!
WTC7 debunked!!!!!! (and don't dare to oppose me) WTC7 DEBUNKED! Hercynite-fayalite complex!!!!!! 
Edited by peterene, Nov 8 2009, 08:40 PM.
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| peterene | Nov 9 2009, 07:23 PM Post #13 |
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Achim, what about the pressure changes after the WTC2 collapse? Do you think that the change would be so significant that the antenna would tilt for one degree? There's a small change in the smoke cloud, but nothing significant. What do you think???? |
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| achimspok | Nov 10 2009, 12:12 PM Post #14 |
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No way. As you saw at the beginning of this tread the pressure had little or no effect to the WTC1. (I would call it suction because the WTC2 fell AWAY from WTC1. But of course there are witness accounts of some "shock wave" that "hit the windows before the cloud of dust came.) The pressure pulse mentioned by NIST occurred 10 minutes after the WTC2 collapse. The darting flames on the south side of WTC1 occurred 4 seconds after the onset of the WTC2 collapse and there was neither heavy ground shaking at that moment nor any visible change in the smoke around WTC1. Therefore neither the darting flames nor the pressure pulse was caused by the WTC2 collapse. These two events caused * the fire in the south west of WTC1 to jump over to the south east after 78 minutes burning in the south west without moving on to the east of the engulfed floors. * start burning of the 92nd floor north and a fire that crossed the NW corner and traveled on to the south side The movement of the antenna appears to be slow and continued over a period of time after the WTC2 collapse while the above happened too. So may be the ground shaking caused by WTC2 played any role but the suction did not. That suction would have pulled the smoke away from the west side and would have sucked it out of the east and south side. Therefore the increasing smoke on the west side had nothing to do with the WTC2 collapse. |
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| peterene | Nov 10 2009, 03:22 PM Post #15 |
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Uhm, yes, the pressure changes can't be behind the antenna tilt. Thx. |
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5:18 PM Nov 23
