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| Image-Based Broadcast Delay; Headphones not required? | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 3 2009, 03:50 PM (265 Views) | |
| Yougenedebs | Nov 3 2009, 03:50 PM Post #1 |
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My new project to track and map the helicopters flying around NYC on 9/11 has run into a snag. There are two fundamental attributes involved: ‘where’ and ‘when’. The ‘where’ is easy enough because almost all of the camera positions have been determined. The ‘when’ is proving to be more difficult. I could use the “on air screen time” but then the images don’t line up. I could use the images, but then the “when” becomes subject to interpretation! Here’s an example:  The traffic monitoring helicopter Chopper 880 was pressed into service to gather images in the early moments of the attack on 9/11. Flying southward from the George Washington Bridge along the New Jersey shore of the Hudson River, the chopper took up a position near Stevens Park in Hoboken and captured the above images. All three channels above, (from left to right) FOX5, ABC, and BBC indicate they were “Live” (whatever that means!) and were broadcasting Chopper 880’s footage. I paused the playback of each channel to freeze the incoming helicopter (inside the red circle) at about the same position. Two fundamental questions arise: At what time were the images captured? At what time were the images broadcast? If we add the vrt (video run time) to the stated beginning time for each channel, the broadcast time becomes: FOX5, [8:31:13am + vrt 28:01] = 8:59:14am; ABC, [8:31:17am + vrt 27:57] = 8:59:14am; BBC, [8:34:30am + vrt 24:48] = 8:59:18am; all of which seems satisfactory, the BBC notwithstanding. If we use the on air screen time, the situation changes: FOX5 changed to 8:59am at vrt 27:57; this is 4 seconds prior to the screen cap above, so the FOX5 time becomes 8:59:04am; this is a 10-second discrepancy from the first method. ABC changed to 8:59am at vrt 27:45; this is 12 seconds prior to the screen cap above, so the ABC time becomes 8:59:12am; this is a 2-second discrepancy from the first method. BBC didn’t display an on air time; so, trying to discern a time of day from their footage is actually more difficult. Why am I bringing all this up? Because I was using the on air screen time for the first few hours of my work, and ran into a situation of a helicopter ‘going’ before it was ‘coming’! My cookie was getting baked hard until I went and checked the time at the beginning of the reel for each network, did a little math, and found the sum of 8:59:14am common to FOX5 and ABC. Also, some other researchers try to sync the footage for one reason or another and might be interested in the hazards involved. It’s a sticky wicket, indeed. In sum, I’ll be using the time of 8:59:14am for the images above because such a time is based on the stated beginning time plus the vrt; I’ll be ignoring the on air screen time for the most part.
Edited by Yougenedebs, Nov 3 2009, 03:53 PM.
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| acebaker | Nov 3 2009, 03:53 PM Post #2 |
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I was wondering when you guys were going to try and attack the problem of dumping out of delay. |
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| Yougenedebs | Nov 3 2009, 03:57 PM Post #3 |
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Oh? Please go on. |
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| broken sticks | Nov 3 2009, 04:35 PM Post #4 |
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When the problem presents itself, we'll cover it. Ace has no proof for any dumping or he would present it (and it would get massacred). |
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| achimspok | Nov 5 2009, 12:23 AM Post #5 |
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Debs, I think you have just a very small chance to be accurate in this. Go to 02:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq3bNBqyyTU You have at least 4 different ways to synchronize the stuff and get always different results. Imo this is mostly caused by the delay of electronic equipment e.g. BBC receives the signal + send it to London + mix it with the banner + send it back + broadcast the sum in USA. I found that the cameras owned by a company are running at the same time and most accurate. If the same company bought live material from another company to put it in their own program then the picture is often delayed. (e.g. Time Warner = HBO, CNN, NY1 / Walt Disney = ABC, WABC, History Channel, A&E / General Electric = NBC, WNBC, WSCV, Bravo, Sci-Fi etc.) The live clocks aren't accurate too. If you stop the minutes you will get long and short minutes and different times on different channels. I found the CNN clock + CNN camera best. I know that the PAL institute used the CNN time for the seismic records and the known time for a traveling seismic wave was always exact when comparing the events in the live picture with the events in the seismic records. The NBC cam on top of the GE building should be accurate as well. So maybe the air times are accurate and the BBC delay was just caused by transmission and editing. But may be you get a different result for different cameras. the slim chance is to watch out for visual events in the CNN footage using the CNN time and check for delays of the same events. Edited by achimspok, Nov 5 2009, 12:26 AM.
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| Yougenedebs | Nov 5 2009, 02:50 AM Post #6 |
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Thank you, achimspok! I really appreciate the tips. I’ll keep in mind the CNN/seismic relationship, as I progress. So far, I’ve only managed to ‘define the problem’ somewhat; and am starting the process of syncing the images. You certainly put a lot of work into your video! I especially like the comparison at 3:50vrt showing different networks, but the same camera feed!  But that’s about the so-called 2nd Hit in the moments around 9:03am; my undertaking here focuses on helicopter activity throughout the morning; not quite the same thing. Your words here: “the slim chance is to watch out for visual events in the CNN footage using the CNN time and check for delays of the same events.” are encouraging! And CNN was first to broadcast images of the WTC, at 8:49:39am. Even if there is only a small chance of success, at least it is a chance. And I must include these sentiments here:  Thank you for your interest in my work!
Edited by Yougenedebs, Nov 5 2009, 02:51 AM.
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| Matt | Nov 5 2009, 05:25 AM Post #7 |
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Have you seen my version of the TV archive, Debs? It has all 6 networks on one screen. Play them all at once! http://www.911conspiracy.tv/9-11_TV_archive.html For the morning times, use the HQ page here: http://www.911conspiracy.tv/9-11_TV_archive_-_1st_reports.html 
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| Yougenedebs | Nov 5 2009, 06:22 AM Post #8 |
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Thanks, Matt! I'm sure that/those will come in handy. |
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| Yougenedebs | Nov 8 2009, 05:42 AM Post #9 |
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To help keep track of vrt, EDT, and on screen time (ost), I created a spreadsheet in Excel. By using some simple formulae, Excel does all the math! I’m giving each second of air time its own row listing the vrt in the first column, the equivalent EDT in the next column, and the ost in the third column. The fourth column shows the pov (point of view, camera position, or whatever) followed by a description of the scene (as required). Each network has its own worksheet. Here’s a screenshot showing the worksheet on the left and the video on the right (with the first helicopter circled in red): I’m just going to name the helicopters H1, H2, and etc. unless I can definitely identify it. In re the delay: ABC has been 2 seconds late; BBC hasn’t shown any yet; CBS has been 2 seconds late; CNN has been 4 seconds late; FOX has been 10 seconds late; NBC has been 4 seconds late. If you really want to bake your cookie, check this out: even though FOX is 8 seconds behind CNN, FOX is showing CNN camera work almost exclusively; and AND!! showing that camera work at the same time as CNN! That’s right! Camera change for camera change, second for second, time after time. This is, what? the 3rd version of the archives? And they still can’t get the times right? HAH! TV FAKERY!
Edited by Yougenedebs, Nov 8 2009, 05:43 AM.
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| Matt | Nov 8 2009, 09:18 AM Post #10 |
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Cookies are baking. So when in the archives is a good example of this FOX CNN dance? |
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| Yougenedebs | Nov 8 2009, 01:25 PM Post #11 |
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8:52 here for FOX; and CNN is here. Open in two separate browser windows, resize each to display both on your monitor at the same time, sync the on screen air time and watch how one follows the camera activity of other. [edited late; sorry, I had a few problems] Edited by Yougenedebs, Nov 8 2009, 09:24 PM.
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| Yougenedebs | Nov 9 2009, 10:51 AM Post #12 |
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You guys might not believe this, but check it out; PLEASE!!! We all know that Chopper 880 was the only helicopter gathering images from a position over Stevens Park, Hoboken, NJ; from that time to 8:57 (and later) there are no other choppers in that area; and the footage from Stevens Park looks like the footage from Stevens Park, in other words, there can be no mistake about which helicopter is filming and from where! Well !! Now we have a spreadsheet; every second of camera activity can be accounted for; every second scrutinized. At 8:56:06 NBC shows some CH880 footage, zoomed in on the Towers; the camera is making some adjustments. The only problem is it’s the SAME footage that was shown on ABC at 8:54:13 !!! Open the links in separate browser windows, hit the pause button, resize each window to show both on your monitor, and then play a few seconds from one then a few seconds from the other: For ABC, vrt 22:56, 8:54:13 http://www.archive.org/details/abc200109110831-0912?start=1376 For NBC, vrt 24:57, 8:56:06 http://www.archive.org/details/nbc200109110831-0912?start=1497 For ABC, start time is 8:31:17; add vrt 22:56, total = 8:54:13 For NBC, start time is 8:31:09; add vrt 24:57, total = 8:56:06  The difference is almost 2 minutes and NBC is promoting it as “LIVE” The NBC Chopper 880 sequence stops at their vrt 25:18, which equals 8:56:27; after some 25 seconds of “old” footage promoted as “LIVE”! This is a clear violation of the Public Trust! Book ‘em, Dan-O!
Edited by Yougenedebs, Nov 9 2009, 10:52 AM.
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| broken sticks | Nov 9 2009, 12:10 PM Post #13 |
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good spot debs! |
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| Matt | Nov 10 2009, 12:28 AM Post #14 |
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This is a great catch. Many more broadcast tricks will likely be found thanks to this research, Debs! I've got an innocent explanation that makes sense, I think. Since NBC hadn't hooked up their LIVE chopper feed yet, and because ABC had the best shot of the disaster, NBC aired the Chopper 880/WABC feed after it was taped for a couple minutes. |
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| Yougenedebs | Nov 10 2009, 12:56 AM Post #15 |
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Well; that would still be a breach of the Public Trust. BTW, NBC did it again, later that same minute, and using the same CH880 footage. It's going to take me a while to make the jpegs. And I've got some interesting finds about helicopters already. I think I'll start a new thread for the choppers, though. |
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3:10 PM Nov 23
