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Ben Aflac is a moron
Topic Started: Oct 6 2014, 07:04 PM (2,439 Views)
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BDW
Oct 27 2014, 04:44 PM
The Bible calls for people to take up against non believers too.

Just sayin'

It does, but it's extremist Muslims who are acting on the call to arms, not the Christians (well, in much, much smaller numbers these days anyway).


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Cbear
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BDW
Oct 27 2014, 04:44 PM
The Bible calls for people to take up against non believers too.

Just sayin'
That means to take up the carpet before the infidels shit on it.
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Tallica
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BDW
Oct 27 2014, 04:44 PM
The Bible calls for people to take up against non believers too.

Just sayin'
There are certainly a lot of passages in the bible, particularly the old testament, that are very violent and abhorrent. However, there really isn't a central theme present and a direct call to action like in the Quran. Also, "The Bible" isn't a religion. Both books at face value are bad and equally false, but the religions that refer to them are not equally as dangerous today.

Another difference is the "deity" that serves as the example to follow. "Christian" are so called because they model themselves after the example and teachings of Christ. Thankfully, that is a mostly peaceful example. Mohammed was a conqueror who did the violent acts he calls for his followers to do. The Quran is also fairly consistent when compared to the bible.

The 2 books of the bible are largely contradictory of each other. For every story of violence in the old testament, there are more in the new that serve to negate them. The Old Testament is rarely taken as a literal text throughout. Those that do are just as bat shit crazy as any radical Muslim, but the message and structured religion isn't as geared towards a call to arms. Another difference is the length of the books. The Quran is only about 80% as long as the New Testament, let alone the entire Bible. It's a much more concise message.

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HugeMMAFan
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Tallica
Oct 27 2014, 02:46 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 01:57 PM
Tallica
Oct 27 2014, 09:57 AM
All of these articles about how Muslims are denouncing the terrible crimes are great, but they are just distractions. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THEM. We have shown real proof of the, at times, staggering poll results. They laugh in the face of political and economic claims. They laugh at the notion that it's a small minority. The people carry out the atrocities are telling people why they do it. The few who leave the extremist groups are telling us why they are doing it and why they once did it. It's time we take them at their word and stop making excuses for them.
I'm not talking about what people believe, I'm talking about people do. People say a lot of shit they can get away with if they can. When push comes to shove, though, who is wililng to actually go through with it? That's the real test.

Polls are good indication of telling what people believe (sometimes), but they are not necessarily indicates of what people have done or what people have supported out of their own resources.
That's the thing about religion...beliefs often impact actions. With Islam, there is a clear call to action, a clear call for violence, and a clear example set to follow by the prophet. These are all present in a way that isn't found in more popular religions.

Also, supporting or condoning atrocities IS a problem EVEN IF you would never actually commit the act. If a significant percentage want to live under Sharia law it's a problem. If large numbers of Catholics wanted to revert back to Jim Crow and the church, and it's leaders were all preaching the wisdom of Jim Crow and endorsing it, how would you feel? Sure many of them might not really mistreat black people if they were around them, but they certainly wouldn't mind if others dd and think they should have the right because God said so. See how that would be a problem?

Oh, and if I said, "but look at how many Catholics DON'T want Jim Crow back!" It would be a stupid response because it doesn't address the problem, only tries to divert attention.
And what kind of "support" are they giving? That's an issue. Are they giving actual resources from their own pocket? If they aren't, what are they REALLY doing then? They're just talking out of their asses then.

Sure, maybe you don't say you support something without actually supporting it, and may be I don't either, but there a lot of people that claim to support things, which, when push comes to shove, if it means taking resources out of their own, they do nothing.

Polls are only good indicators of what people believe. They do not prove what people actually have done.

As for Muslims being violent, if you look at history, so were Christians. Look back at the Middle Ages. As the strength of Christianity subsided, the violent aspects of the Western European cultures remained. Combined their economic and political situations at the time, Europe went into World War I and World War II.

If you look at Western Europe as an example, things WILL get better in the Middle East if we work at it. But going after religion first is quite silly, considering if you look at the decline of Christianity didn't necessarily lead to the decline of violence in Western Europe. World War I and II? Secular Nations.

Religion isn't irrelevant, but history tells us there are more relevant factors.

And thing is, I don't even like or dislike religion. But talking about it first is pointless. POINTLESS. That's why I hate it when Theists and Atheists debate whether religion is bad or good - the whole discussion is pointless if you don't deal in other factors first.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 27 2014, 06:33 PM.
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Tallica
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HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 06:23 PM
Tallica
Oct 27 2014, 02:46 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 01:57 PM
Tallica
Oct 27 2014, 09:57 AM
All of these articles about how Muslims are denouncing the terrible crimes are great, but they are just distractions. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THEM. We have shown real proof of the, at times, staggering poll results. They laugh in the face of political and economic claims. They laugh at the notion that it's a small minority. The people carry out the atrocities are telling people why they do it. The few who leave the extremist groups are telling us why they are doing it and why they once did it. It's time we take them at their word and stop making excuses for them.
I'm not talking about what people believe, I'm talking about people do. People say a lot of shit they can get away with if they can. When push comes to shove, though, who is wililng to actually go through with it? That's the real test.

Polls are good indication of telling what people believe (sometimes), but they are not necessarily indicates of what people have done or what people have supported out of their own resources.
That's the thing about religion...beliefs often impact actions. With Islam, there is a clear call to action, a clear call for violence, and a clear example set to follow by the prophet. These are all present in a way that isn't found in more popular religions.

Also, supporting or condoning atrocities IS a problem EVEN IF you would never actually commit the act. If a significant percentage want to live under Sharia law it's a problem. If large numbers of Catholics wanted to revert back to Jim Crow and the church, and it's leaders were all preaching the wisdom of Jim Crow and endorsing it, how would you feel? Sure many of them might not really mistreat black people if they were around them, but they certainly wouldn't mind if others dd and think they should have the right because God said so. See how that would be a problem?

Oh, and if I said, "but look at how many Catholics DON'T want Jim Crow back!" It would be a stupid response because it doesn't address the problem, only tries to divert attention.
And what kind of "support" are they giving? That's an issue. Are they giving actual resources from their own pocket? If they aren't, what are they REALLY doing then? They're just talking out of their asses then.

Sure, maybe you don't say you support something without actually supporting it, and may be I don't either, but there a lot of people that claim to support things, which, when push comes to shove, if it means taking resources out of their own, they do nothing.

Polls are only good indicators of what people believe. They do not prove what people actually have done.

As for Muslims being violent, if you look at history, so were Christians. Look back at the Middle Ages. As the strength of Christianity subsided, the violent aspects of the Western European cultures remained. Combined their economic and political situations at the time, Europe went into World War I and World War II.

If you look at Western Europe as an example, things WILL get better in the Middle East if we work at it. But going after religion first is quite silly, considering if you look at the decline of Christianity didn't necessarily lead to the decline of violence in Western Europe. World War I and II? Secular Nations.
You're all over the place. Who cares if they are "giving resources out of their own pockets"? Supporting bad ideas and being complicit is enough. I'm also willing to bet there is plenty coming out of these people's pockets in support of their beliefs, but again, beside the point.

I also don't recall saying Christianity was never a violent religion. If this was a conversation in the 1400s, I'd have the same opinion of Christianity. Are we really holding civilizations to the same standards in 2014 as we were then?

Also, no one said all wars were religious, but if you want to use WWII as an example, there is a pretty easy case to be made that the Catholic church played a pretty major role in creating an idea of anti-antisemitism that helped Hitler bring the 3rd Reich to power.

One thing I think is worth mentioning is that I have listened to a lot of debate on this, not just bias one sided videos, etc. I have changed my mind based on facts and arguments presented. I can tell from your posts that you haven't given hardly any of the videos posted much look. Many of your hollow points are addressed very clearly, yet you side step most points to the contrary.
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Tallica
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HugeMMAFan
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Look, my dispute isn't that Islam isn't an issue. It is. But what I don't like is these singular attacks on it as if Islam is unique if it's current propensity for violence, when it isn't. That may not be YOUR point, but it sure seem someone else IMPLIES it was this.

And the thing is, my ultimate issue is talking about religion first period. Theists and Atheists both make a similar mistake - they assume that religion is the most prominent thing in this world, and isn't. From the theist side, they believe religion (their religion) can help solve some problems of the world. From Atheists side, they generally believe religion causes at least some of the problems of the world.

I question the very idea of going after religion as the first issue. Theists and atheists are both wrong to place religion first, for whatever reasons they may have (whether they defend or oppose religion). There are more important issues at hand than religion.
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19nate79

I have no idea how you can be so naive with all the information in front of you. I really don't. Are you purposefully not looking at the poll numbers? When I remove all of those factors you mention the % of people that want to cut off hand and feet of criminals or stone adulterers is ridiculous. The number that want sharia law which is based on their religion are very high. So they want to live that way in spite of their advantages here. That is muslims following Islam choosing to live the worst parts of it and impose it on you. Go ahead and draw the prophet and stand outside a mosque where you live selling it.
Edited by 19nate79, Oct 28 2014, 07:27 AM.
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HugeMMAFan
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19nate79
Oct 28 2014, 05:02 AM
I have no idea how you can be so naive with all the information in front of you. I really don't. Are you purposefully not looking at the poll numbers? When I remove all of those factors you mention the % of people that want to cut off hand and feet of criminals or stone adulterers is ridiculous. The number that want sharia law which is based on their religion are very high. So they want to live that way in spite of their advantages here. That is muslims following Islam choosing to live the worst parts of it and impose it on you. Go ahead and draw the prophet and stand outside a mosque where you live selling it.
Naive? Like I said before, poll numbers can sometimes (but not always) accurately gauge what people believe, they do accurately gauge what people do. It's a mistake to think that belief equates action. Does it sometimes? Yes. Does it equate enough in such a way to have a strong correlation? No.

I'm not being naive with this information. I"m being cynical and pessimistic. If poll numbers can accurately represent that what people believe leads to what people do, we wouldn't need to rely on anything else to tell whether people are dangerous or not dangerous.

I have yet seen anyone (I don't mean just here) show a strong correlation between stating a belief in polls and actual action in real life. How many people that believe abortion doctors should be killed actually doing it themselves? How many people that admit (which is rare) that they don't like black people and actually go out and try to hurt them? How many dislike the police and actually go out and fight the police? I don't know the numbers, but my guess - not very many. Until someone can prove there is a strong correlation between belief and action on a mass scale, I'm going to be cynical and pessimistic about any idea that suggests otherwise.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 28 2014, 02:40 PM.
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Cbear
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What is puzzling is why people who say they want to live under Sharia law, run away from the countries doing it to go elsewhere; and then say they want their new homes to convert to Sharia law. Shouldn't these ex-pats be first in line calling not only freedom of religion but freedom from religion?
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HugeMMAFan
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Cbear
Oct 28 2014, 10:28 PM
What is puzzling is why people who say they want to live under Sharia law, run away from the countries doing it to go elsewhere; and then say they want their new homes to convert to Sharia law. Shouldn't these ex-pats be first in line calling not only freedom of religion but freedom from religion?
It depends on how and why they left their country.
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Cbear
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HugeMMAFan
Oct 29 2014, 12:30 AM
Cbear
Oct 28 2014, 10:28 PM
What is puzzling is why people who say they want to live under Sharia law, run away from the countries doing it to go elsewhere; and then say they want their new homes to convert to Sharia law. Shouldn't these ex-pats be first in line calling not only freedom of religion but freedom from religion?
It depends on how and why they left their country.
Why not simply go to another Islamic country if they flee there own?
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HugeMMAFan
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Cbear
Oct 29 2014, 01:50 AM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 29 2014, 12:30 AM
Cbear
Oct 28 2014, 10:28 PM
What is puzzling is why people who say they want to live under Sharia law, run away from the countries doing it to go elsewhere; and then say they want their new homes to convert to Sharia law. Shouldn't these ex-pats be first in line calling not only freedom of religion but freedom from religion?
It depends on how and why they left their country.


Why not simply go to another Islamic country if they flee there own?

Beyond Muslims, there are many reasons for all people that end up immigrating to USA.

I'm going to be honest with you. Not all ex-pats come to the USA for the same reasons. Yes, there's a good a number of them that come over wanting to be "Americanized". I'm serious. They WANT to be American.

However, there's a good number that NEVER want to come over, but feel they have been forced to come over. What forces them to come over? Well, that can be a lot of things. It's not really relevant except they didn't really want come in. Some of them can be vocal, though. "In the homelands...we..." and then you watch people like me roll my eyes at these people.

There's another contingent where they just "happened" to end up here. You'd be surprised how many "well, I don't know how I ended up here. One thing lead to another...I'm surprised as you are". You'd be surprised how many people end up here by pure accident.

There's another contingent, with America being the one of the most capitalistic areas of the world, where they come for the money. That's it. They don't care about anything else. They want the money. They go where the money is. USA has no money? They leave. USA has money? They stay until there is no money.


The biggest contingent is the contigent that doesn't really care what their country live in, so as they make a living there, be relatively safe, where it is relatively welcome to outsiders. Currently, that's the USA. These people don't really care what country they are from, only what the country provides them. No have no loyalty to any country, only loyalty to what a country provides them.

The groups I mentioned are not necessarily bad people though. They are just looking out for themselves and their families. If they really cared about something like "country", most of them wouldn't leave their own in the first place (unless, like I said, they believe they were forced to leave).

As for why they don't end up in Islamic Nations, I think a good number probably do immigrate to other Islamic Nations, especially the poor. Or they maybe so poor they can't leave. As for the rich and/or non-poor Muslims? Well, money can get you places, obviously. Most of the Muslims that end up the USA aren't exactly worse off.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 29 2014, 02:48 AM.
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Cbear
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The contingent I see is the "I want money" crowd. They own the c-store market and are the biggest capitalists in the nation. That's fine. work hard, make money. But to say they want Sharia law hammered down on this? That will kill that capitalist money train dead. So do you want money or Sharia law?
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19nate79

Cbear
Oct 29 2014, 04:17 AM
The contingent I see is the "I want money" crowd. They own the c-store market and are the biggest capitalists in the nation. That's fine. work hard, make money. But to say they want Sharia law hammered down on this? That will kill that capitalist money train dead. So do you want money or Sharia law?
Because its what they believe and the rest of us are immoral for not behaving as they do
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