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Ben Aflac is a moron
Topic Started: Oct 6 2014, 07:04 PM (2,440 Views)
HugeMMAFan
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19nate79
Oct 26 2014, 09:23 PM
Holy crap it's like talking to a brick

Do you want to go back through and read my posts. Youre repeating my arguments and disagree in g with them in the same sentence
I am agreeing with you in some cases (or ver little, depending on your perspective), but disagreeing on many others. You HAVE to separate the religious, political, economic, and cultural aspects of any issue. Yes, there are connections. Yes, it's sometimes useful to analyze them together. Yes, it's impossible to completely separate them.

However, if one fails to separate them into related yet different categories, one has the chance to make a "category mistake". It's a subtle and difficult concept to explain and to understand. You basically ascribe what are deep-ingrained cultural, political, and economic issues within Islam to religious issues in Islam. However, although related in some cases, they are unrleated in others and even if related, often distinct.
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19nate79

I am familiar with category mistake
The irony of the rest of your statement though....

Let me try this one more way
5 Mexicans come to your house
One says I am going to shit on your rug
Two say yeah his rug deserves it
One says only shit on it once
The other says not to

The minority says you should never shit on the rug
a larger minority says it only ok to rarely shit on the rug or never to
2 are for it but don't shit themselves
1 shits on the rug

Then you have 10000 Mexicans over and those numbers repeat just in larger numbers

We can safely assume Mexicans as a whole have a problem with their views on rug shitting

Sure there are at least 2000 Mexicans in that group that think rug shitting is horrible and should never be done. Those people should be lauded even if they don't speak out for fear of the others shitting on his new rug. We should be concerned that they live in fear of shitting though and that really says more about their population than the shitting itself.
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HugeMMAFan
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....wait, what?
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19nate79

Exactly




As a side bar how come we don't have Christian suicide bombers in Palestine or other countries?
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split decision
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19nate79
Oct 26 2014, 10:23 PM

I'm glad this woman is being given a broader voice. Reforms are badly needed in places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran. At least this woman is still alive, for now, to express the inequities within Islam in her country.

However, in Iran, this woman has been silenced for good:


U.S. condemns Iran's hanging of alleged rape victim

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/10/25/execution-of-iranian-woman/17907371/

The woman in Pakistan says there are "more people than we realise" who uphold values that restrict human rights. It is a significant problem, no doubt.

At the same time, she never says she would prefer to renounce her Muslims beliefs and she writes:

"Most Muslims choose to interpret scripture in a peaceful way, but that doesn’t mean the raw material isn’t there for those who choose the path of violence. That material must be addressed."

So Nate's analogy using Mexicans shitting on rugs stacks the numbers in a shitty way because he has only 2,000 good people out of 10,000.

The oppressed Pakistani female author of the letter characterizes the majority of Muslims as peaceful practitioners of the religion, despite being held down by traditionalists or extremists.

Hopefully the tide turns in those countries as younger, more progressive Muslims disseminate ideas via social media, even though that too is a challenge because such acts are illegal and technology is tightly controlled.

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HugeMMAFan
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19nate79
Oct 27 2014, 12:55 AM
Exactly




As a side bar how come we don't have Christian suicide bombers in Palestine or other countries?
I still don't get what your point is in that post. I can't even tell if it's relevant or irrelevant to what anyone has said in this thread, including your comments.

In any case, there aren't any Christian suicide bombers mostly because they aren't a lot of native Christians in the Middle East. There are some, but there aren't a lot of them. Most of the Christians in the area have been historically been either absorbed by the Muslims around them or forced out.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 27 2014, 01:58 PM.
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Tallica
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I'm of 2 minds about this thread. It's encouraging that this type of debate can happen and remain mostly civil. People have posed the question, "how do you effect change?" and as meaningless as this all seems, I think this is the first step. Having open discussions about why such problems are persisting in these countries is great.

Even if you disagree with or strongly dislike the positions of Harris and his peers, it is opening up a dialogue. There seems to be a trend of people becoming more secular, and I think that will also help keep these discussions closer to the forefront. The hope is that it becomes more acceptable and less "offensive" to those who should be talking about it in the first place. As the topic becomes less taboo in free societies, hopefully the moderates and formerly repressed members of the Islamic community will feel encouraged and safer to come forward.

One thing Nate mentioned several days ago that I find to be true is his response to the question "how do we proceed?" I think we address this like almost every other system of harmful ideas. It should be criticized at all turns for the harm carried out in it's name. Both externally and internally until those that adhere to the bad ideas truly are a fringe population like any other system of bad ideas.

The other thought about this thread is slightly depressing in that it appears there is still an ingrained level of PC and false equivalency that is preventing people from seeing the point. Like the letter Nate just linked to, it's obvious that the people in denial of the actuality of the situation are doing so with their heart in the right place. However, I think Harris and others are right when they say it's hard for people to truly fathom what it's like to TRULY BELIEVE the promise of salvation for you and loved ones if you martyr yourself for God. If you truly in your heart of hearts felt that killing yourself and others would grant you and your loved ones eternal happiness, you's be wrong NOT TO DO IT. I would do it, if I TRULY believed it. How could I not?

All of these articles about how Muslims are denouncing the terrible crimes are great, but they are just distractions. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THEM. We have shown real proof of the, at times, staggering poll results. They laugh in the face of political and economic claims. They laugh at the notion that it's a small minority. The people carry out the atrocities are telling people why they do it. The few who leave the extremist groups are telling us why they are doing it and why they once did it. It's time we take them at their word and stop making excuses for them.

Oh, and since it has to be stated ad-nauseum, I'm not talking about the nice guy who says he Muslim but harms no one and harbors no ill will to women and minorities.
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19nate79

HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 03:53 AM
19nate79
Oct 27 2014, 12:55 AM
Exactly




As a side bar how come we don't have Christian suicide bombers in Palestine or other countries?
I still get what your point is in that post. I can't even tell if it's relevant or irrelevant to what anyone has said in this thread, including your comments.

In any case, there aren't any Christian suicide bombers mostly because they aren't a lot of native Christians in the Middle East. There are some, but there aren't a lot of them. Most of the Christians in the area have been historically been either absorbed by the Muslims around them or forced out.
there are jewish and christian populations in all these countries, the ones that aren't having their heads cut off peacefully, and yet they aren't suicide bombing (even in the country where they are being beheaded).


then there's armenia...
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HugeMMAFan
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19nate79
Oct 27 2014, 01:49 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 03:53 AM
19nate79
Oct 27 2014, 12:55 AM
Exactly




As a side bar how come we don't have Christian suicide bombers in Palestine or other countries?
I still get what your point is in that post. I can't even tell if it's relevant or irrelevant to what anyone has said in this thread, including your comments.

In any case, there aren't any Christian suicide bombers mostly because they aren't a lot of native Christians in the Middle East. There are some, but there aren't a lot of them. Most of the Christians in the area have been historically been either absorbed by the Muslims around them or forced out.
there are jewish and christian populations in all these countries, the ones that aren't having their heads cut off peacefully, and yet they aren't suicide bombing (even in the country where they are being beheaded).


then there's armenia...
You know that I did so there ARE pockets of those in those countries, right? In any case, they don't involve themselves in these because they are often not in the same social groups anyway. They aren't even recruited in the first place.
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HugeMMAFan
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Tallica
Oct 27 2014, 09:57 AM
All of these articles about how Muslims are denouncing the terrible crimes are great, but they are just distractions. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THEM. We have shown real proof of the, at times, staggering poll results. They laugh in the face of political and economic claims. They laugh at the notion that it's a small minority. The people carry out the atrocities are telling people why they do it. The few who leave the extremist groups are telling us why they are doing it and why they once did it. It's time we take them at their word and stop making excuses for them.
I'm not talking about what people believe, I'm talking about people do. People say a lot of shit they can get away with if they can. When push comes to shove, though, who is wililng to actually go through with it? That's the real test.

Polls are good indication of telling what people believe (sometimes), but they are not necessarily indicates of what people have done or what people have supported out of their own resources.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 27 2014, 02:00 PM.
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19nate79

HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 01:54 PM
19nate79
Oct 27 2014, 01:49 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 03:53 AM
19nate79
Oct 27 2014, 12:55 AM
Exactly




As a side bar how come we don't have Christian suicide bombers in Palestine or other countries?
I still get what your point is in that post. I can't even tell if it's relevant or irrelevant to what anyone has said in this thread, including your comments.

In any case, there aren't any Christian suicide bombers mostly because they aren't a lot of native Christians in the Middle East. There are some, but there aren't a lot of them. Most of the Christians in the area have been historically been either absorbed by the Muslims around them or forced out.
there are jewish and christian populations in all these countries, the ones that aren't having their heads cut off peacefully, and yet they aren't suicide bombing (even in the country where they are being beheaded).


then there's armenia...
You know that I did so there ARE pockets of those in those countries, right? In any case, they don't involve themselves in these because they are often not in the same social groups anyway. They aren't even recruited in the first place.
of course they aren't recruited, they are the targets. why don;t they have their own groups?
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Tallica
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HugeMMAFan
Oct 27 2014, 01:57 PM
Tallica
Oct 27 2014, 09:57 AM
All of these articles about how Muslims are denouncing the terrible crimes are great, but they are just distractions. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THEM. We have shown real proof of the, at times, staggering poll results. They laugh in the face of political and economic claims. They laugh at the notion that it's a small minority. The people carry out the atrocities are telling people why they do it. The few who leave the extremist groups are telling us why they are doing it and why they once did it. It's time we take them at their word and stop making excuses for them.
I'm not talking about what people believe, I'm talking about people do. People say a lot of shit they can get away with if they can. When push comes to shove, though, who is wililng to actually go through with it? That's the real test.

Polls are good indication of telling what people believe (sometimes), but they are not necessarily indicates of what people have done or what people have supported out of their own resources.
That's the thing about religion...beliefs often impact actions. With Islam, there is a clear call to action, a clear call for violence, and a clear example set to follow by the prophet. These are all present in a way that isn't found in more popular religions.

Also, supporting or condoning atrocities IS a problem EVEN IF you would never actually commit the act. If a significant percentage want to live under Sharia law it's a problem. If large numbers of Catholics wanted to revert back to Jim Crow and the church, and it's leaders were all preaching the wisdom of Jim Crow and endorsing it, how would you feel? Sure many of them might not really mistreat black people if they were around them, but they certainly wouldn't mind if others dd and think they should have the right because God said so. See how that would be a problem?

Oh, and if I said, "but look at how many Catholics DON'T want Jim Crow back!" It would be a stupid response because it doesn't address the problem, only tries to divert attention.
Edited by Tallica, Oct 27 2014, 02:48 PM.
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19nate79

I actually do wonder what percentage of the kkk wants to kill black people and/or jews. Wonder if it's near that 19% mark set by Muslims
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Tallica
Oct 27 2014, 02:46 PM
Oh, and if I said, "but look at how many Catholics DON'T want Jim Crow back!" It would be a stupid response because it doesn't address the problem, only tries to divert attention.

It wouldn't be a stupid response depending on the company you're in. Maybe you don't hear it in progressive Chicago, but up here in Canada we have too many people who spew, "Let's send 'em all back to their own countries" in reference to Muslims.

So to engage in conversations where problems within the religion are acknowledged, it's important to remind some folks that not all Muslims are the same.

I know you and Nate insist you're not among those types. But others here in this forum don't fall into the same school of thought.

I'm going to respond to your earlier post, just need time to make it well thought-out, not hasty.
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The Bible calls for people to take up against non believers too.

Just sayin'
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