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Ben Aflac is a moron
Topic Started: Oct 6 2014, 07:04 PM (2,441 Views)
scarborough
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19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 08:50 PM
I wonder if white people were muslims if you'd have the same issue with denouncing them. No white guilt to default to
the Westboro Baptist church has been denounced by mostly everyone, they're all white.
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Tallica
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It's much easier for people to criticize Christianity. It's the equivalent to "white" in a racial discussion. No one cares if you talk shit about it. I mean, some do, but no one cares that they care.
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HugeMMAFan
Oct 25 2014, 02:44 PM
Look, no one has ever denied that religion contributes PARTLY to the problem. However, what I saying (over and over, until people get it) economics, politics, and culture contribute more than religion does. I also posit that when people complain about religion, what they are really complaining about is culture.

Of course socio-economics play a role.

And while Nate may insinuate that the Quran demands jihadist behavior, he's just distorting history just like extremists/radicals distort Islam.

If Islam was inherently violent then why were there hundreds of years of peaceful co-existence? Did you know that the Jews used to seek sanctuary among the Muslims when they were being relentlessly persecuted by Christians?

Read Zachary Karabell's book Peace Be Upon You: Fourteen Centuries of Muslim, Christian and Jewish Conflict and Cooperation. The guy is an award-winning historian with no axe to grind.

It's been approximately the past 70 years where extremists have taken a growing foothold and began using religion as an excuse to do harm to others. Yes, there is a problem among a significant minority of Muslims who are acting like barbarians.

But, even though there are messages in the Quran (and more so in the Hadith) that are either clearly advocating violent acts in some circumstances, as all holy books do, or interpreted that way, there are also passages that advocate peace. A few examples:

"who so kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

“Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

“I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ”



Many Muslims put as much or more stock in those words as they do in any call to wage jihad.









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split decision
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And here's another story that illustrates how people in lower social strata are ripe targets for extremist recruitment...


The Pompey jihadis: how did one English city produce six young fighters for Isis?

Outside Jami Mosque, among the swirling brown leaves, Abdul Jamani reckons the mundanity of life among the terraced streets nearby helped to propel the lads to the battlefields of Syria. “There’s not that much to do around here, they probably wanted excitement. Whatever they were after, it was nothing to do with Islam,” says Jamani, aged 38, who helps out at the Bengali restaurants that line Albert Road.

Portsmouth’s Jami Mosque and Islamic Centre was attended by the “al-Britaini Brigade Bangladeshi Bad Boys”, also known as the Pompey Lads. The group of six, caught on CCTV as they strode jauntily through Gatwick airport ahead of a Thomas Cook flight to Turkey on 8 October last year, ended up fighting for Islamic State (Isis). One is now in a British jail, four of them are dead – one confirmed killed on Tuesday and another announced yesterday – in the Isis offensive on the Syrian town of Kobani, where the remaining member of the group is presumed to still be fighting.

Another son of the city, now known as Abu Abdullah al-Britani, 32, is also unlikely to come home. He appeared in an Isis video a few days ago claiming he was willing to spill his blood on land 2,000 miles from his Hampshire home.

The issue of why the lads are a product of “Pompey” – the football-based nickname for Portsmouth – forged from the warren of Victorian streets that make up the most densely populated area in the UK outside of London, where 210,000 people are squashed into 15 or so square miles, is a topic of heated discussion within the city.

Certainly, police are interested in the naval port, with sources revealing that officers from Scotland Yard’s SO15 counter-terrorism command and the South- East counter-terrorism unit (Sectu) are taking an active and ongoing interest in members of its 7,100-strong Muslim community. The consensus within Portsmouth is that the fact a handful of young male Bangladeshis has been seduced by the message of Isis represents something broader within British society.

At the Globex money transfer and flight services shop close to the mosque, one British Bangladeshi believes that youngsters who feel they have no stake in society join Isis to give their life meaning. “Look at white converts, they are often former prisoners with drug and crime backgrounds who have no prospects, and becoming an extremist gives them an identity, it’s the same for young people across Britain,” he adds, declining to share his name.

Others maintain that Portsmouth’s particular characteristics offer contributing factors. MI5’s internal briefing document on understanding radicalisation states that the only way to tackle the problem is by targeting at-risk groups and trying to assimilate them into society, including helping young people find jobs. Portsmouth, with its reliance on the public and defence sector, suffered in the recession and high-flying job opportunities for the young are the exception.

The port’s official poverty assessment, completed in 2011 but likely to have since deteriorated, sheds light on Charles Dickens ward as one of the most deprived in Britain and is where most of the Portsmouth jihadis come from. Here, 57% of children live in income-deprived families: the average estimated household income is £430 per week compared with the British average of £670.

The Bangladeshi community is singled out as enduring particular hardship with more than half of all households headed by a Pakistani or Bangladeshi experiencing poverty. In addition, a recent survey named Portsmouth as among the most stressful places to live. By comparison, one of the city’s jihadis, Iftekhar Jaman, 23, tweeted from Syria before he was killed that some might think “Jihad in Syria is 24/7 fighting but it’s much more relaxed than that. They’re calling it a five-star jihad.”

One resident, retired restaurateur Muhammed Badruz Zaman, 78, who arrived in the city from Sylhet in Bangladesh, never thought he would witness the day that young Bangladeshis would voluntarily leave the UK to fight in the Middle East. He says: “It seems totally crazy, their brains have been washed to leave this safe city, and for what?”

But the equation that economic hardship and alienation equals radicalisation is not straightforward. Some of the Pompey six had reasonable jobs, after all. Muhammad Hamidur Rahman, 25, who was killed in a Syrian firefight in July, worked at Primark. Jaman, a former public schoolboy in London, worked in customer services at Sky.

Other city residents believe that the animosity experienced by Muslim youths from the port’s far-right fraternity could have driven some to Syria. “There is quite a lot of extremism in Portsmouth. We have problems on the right also with the EDL [English Defence League]. It’s the same thing only opposite. There is a battle going on here,” says Abdul Thakur, 42, from Southsea.

A fortnight ago demontrators gathered outside the mosque, protesting against a Muslim primary school in the city. Some had flags adorned with “EDL: No Surrender.” Witnesses described chants of “You’re not English.”

One resident, speaking from Somers Town where the parents of Mashudur Choudhury, 31, the group member who is in jail, were recently arrested on terrorism offences, admits there is a sense of disquiet among some. “It is extremely unsettling that there are guys from here who are basically fighting us,” he says, requesting anonymity.

The geographical spread of the city’s Muslim community may have diluted the possibility of serious confrontation. Unlike many northern towns, there is no obvious ethnic segregation within inner-city Portsmouth. Incidents are sporadic. A pig’s head was stuck on a spike outside Madani Academy in Fratton last December. Four years ago a poppy was painted on the front of the Jami Mosque. The following day 100 people gathered outside to protest, indicating an Islamophobic sentiment within the port before the Syrian uprising began in 2011. Zaman, however, says that during his 45 years in the city he has encountered only hospitality.

Back at Jami Mosque, Aashif Hassan, 34, says: “You cannot stop an individual thinking such thoughts, they are adults who can do what they want.” During Friday prayers, Jami’s imam is due to reiterate calls dissuading others tempted to follow the Pompey Lads’ journey to the front line. Leaflets outside the mosque frequently advise young Muslims how extremely dangerous travel is to Syria.

The city council is at pains to demonstrate it has taken extremism seriously for years, a spokesman citing a 2009 assessment that identified potential radicalisation issues, including the “growing gap between young and old” alongside the “priority of access to jobs, educational attainment and positive role models for young Muslims”.

He says they have been working with the police, in charge of delivering the government’s anti-extremism Prevent strategy, to tackle such issues, including a seminar to challenge what used to be called the “al Qaeda narrative”. Elsewhere, a group of Portsmouth’s Muslim youths are producing an anti-radicalisation documentary that will be released in the city in January.

Yet the feeling among some is that Hampshire’s cohort of fighters has nothing to do with Portsmouth. Instead they point out how they are radicalised online, often through Isis’s skilled use of social media. “It happens in their bedrooms, no one can reach them,” says Thakur, mimicking manic typing on the bonnet of a parked car. “Anyway boys will be boys, some will always want a fight,” he adds.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/26/portsmouth-jihadis-isis-islamic-state?CMP=fb_gu
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HugeMMAFan
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19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 07:29 PM
And youre wrong
Jihad is real
It's in the Koran
The prophet did it
He's the example these people follow
They say they are going to do it
They say islam demands it
You don't need me than that but there is more
Isis hamas Hezbollah and more than I'm not going to attempt with auto correct at the helm are just the most extreme edge and unfortunately the fringe isn't 1 or 2%. That's the problem

So we really need to address the Muslims that don't believe in stoning adulterers and cutting off the hands and feet of criminals. Unfortunately that number is too fucking low. Sharia law cannot be tolerated and look at those numbers. That's the problem. This rreligion is still followed in a pretty fundamental way by a massive number of people.

The fact remains that in the best countries on that list like turkey you still have large numbers. Those people have money education and opportunities and yet they yearn for worse conditions

I literally believe that you come from such a sheltered (for lack of better term) first world life you can't comprehend people actually wanting this.
I never said Jihad was false, where did I say that? Nowhere. The problem isn't the religion itself, but the current economic and political situation where they feel terribly oppressed, and then used religion as an the excuse for what they do. It's easier to use religion as an emotional appeal than to use politics and econimcs as rational appeals.

19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 07:29 PM
You look at the ones in first world countries and they still hold those beliefs and convert people to it, who might already be crazy (debatable).


As for coming for a first world life, my guess is, so are you. As for being sheltered, if you come from the first world as well, you are sheltered as well, if you are using the first world as a standard. Anyone that lives from within Western European-based areas (including the USA) will tend to be sheltered compared to anyone from the Middle East. Unless you are some hard person living in Eastern Europe or Israel, we are probably mostly sheltered.

Are you telling me you are the model of not being sheltered and/or not living the first world? I can see saying you are not sheltered (which wouldn't matter to me anyway), and I would have hard time believing the second if you claimed to be from the USA. Oh, and even If I can affirmatively deny or conclusively admit I was sheltered, it would change nothing. It would not change my conclusion that religion holds less sway than culture, politics, and economics. Therefore, being sheltered or not sheltered is irrelevant to my conclusion.

Considering you used sheltered first world life, though, I think you mean that as one phrase, which in that case, applies to most people in the USA. It's a silly empty phrase unless you are comparing to non-Western-Europe-based nations, though.

This has nothing nothing to do with this conversation, though, so I have no idea why you bring it up. "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones", as they say. I never say accuse anyone else of anything that I cannot myself conclusively admit that I am or affirmatively deny that I am. If I someone of being a jerk, for example, I have to make sure that I cannot be accused of the same, or concede that in certain cases I was. (And to answer my question, I would concede in that case I was jerk in some cases before accusing some else of being one).
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 26 2014, 04:23 PM.
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fightfan10
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11 pages of responses to nate's "Aflac" thread!
we are all worse off for it.
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HugeMMAFan
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Tallica
Oct 26 2014, 12:01 PM
It's much easier for people to criticize Christianity. It's the equivalent to "white" in a racial discussion. No one cares if you talk shit about it. I mean, some do, but no one cares that they care.
I question the very idea of attacking any religion. In modern times, it's an useless endeavor until bigger and more important issues are dealt with first.I'm not saying religion isn't an issue, I'm saying it's less of an issue when compared to others, and that dealing with those first would make it less difficult to deal with religious issues.
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fightfan10
Oct 26 2014, 04:14 PM
11 pages of responses to nate's "Aflac" thread!
we are all worse off for it.

I understand the sentiment but these are important issues to be discussed. Is it going to change the world? Not a chance.

Can it lead to greater understanding among a few people, who might influence another few people, and so on? Absolutely, as long as everyone comes into the discussion not only say their piece, but willing to comprehend what others are expressing.
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HugeMMAFan
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split decision
Oct 26 2014, 04:32 PM
fightfan10
Oct 26 2014, 04:14 PM
11 pages of responses to nate's "Aflac" thread!
we are all worse off for it.

I understand the sentiment but these are important issues to be discussed. Is it going to change the world? Not a chance.

Can it lead to greater understanding among a few people, who might influence another few people, and so on? Absolutely, as long as everyone comes into the discussion not only say their piece, but willing to comprehend what others are expressing.
I think Fightfight is making a snarky comment. Even I get that. :wink:
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19nate79

split decision
Oct 26 2014, 12:46 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 25 2014, 02:44 PM
Look, no one has ever denied that religion contributes PARTLY to the problem. However, what I saying (over and over, until people get it) economics, politics, and culture contribute more than religion does. I also posit that when people complain about religion, what they are really complaining about is culture.

Of course socio-economics play a role.

And while Nate may insinuate that the Quran demands jihadist behavior, he's just distorting history just like extremists/radicals distort Islam.

If Islam was inherently violent then why were there hundreds of years of peaceful co-existence? Did you know that the Jews used to seek sanctuary among the Muslims when they were being relentlessly persecuted by Christians?

Read Zachary Karabell's book Peace Be Upon You: Fourteen Centuries of Muslim, Christian and Jewish Conflict and Cooperation. The guy is an award-winning historian with no axe to grind.

It's been approximately the past 70 years where extremists have taken a growing foothold and began using religion as an excuse to do harm to others. Yes, there is a problem among a significant minority of Muslims who are acting like barbarians.

But, even though there are messages in the Quran (and more so in the Hadith) that are either clearly advocating violent acts in some circumstances, as all holy books do, or interpreted that way, there are also passages that advocate peace. A few examples:

"who so kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

“Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

“I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ”



Many Muslims put as much or more stock in those words as they do in any call to wage jihad.









So you say I distort history and then make my point for me. Imagine my confusion

Islam is being used by murderers today and for the 1637364362728th time we are talking about that percentage that is committing these acts you fucking retard stop throwing the same strawman out
We live today

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19nate79

HugeMMAFan
Oct 26 2014, 04:25 PM
Tallica
Oct 26 2014, 12:01 PM
It's much easier for people to criticize Christianity. It's the equivalent to "white" in a racial discussion. No one cares if you talk shit about it. I mean, some do, but no one cares that they care.
I question the very idea of attacking any religion. In modern times, it's an useless endeavor until bigger and more important issues are dealt with first.I'm not saying religion isn't an issue, I'm saying it's less of an issue when compared to others, and that dealing with those first would make it less difficult to deal with religious issues.
Again wrong

We aren't worried about the guy that goes to his mosque and then plays softball and goes home

We are talking about a significant minority that are ok with suicide bombing all the way to the majority that want sharia law.

As crazy as jihad,stoning adulterers, and the other stuff on the pole are the number that aren't actively doing it but support it is very high even in places like england. That means they want this stuff but just aren't allowed to do it. That's a problem. That's them following their religion. What's worse is what happens when criticized or made fun of. Everybody here has heard catholic jokes on TV or seen videos of people making fun of Westboro. The book of Mormon is still running. South park did scientology. Where are the drawings of the prophet or allah? What would happen if we allow that?
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19nate79
Oct 26 2014, 06:53 PM
split decision
Oct 26 2014, 12:46 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 25 2014, 02:44 PM
Look, no one has ever denied that religion contributes PARTLY to the problem. However, what I saying (over and over, until people get it) economics, politics, and culture contribute more than religion does. I also posit that when people complain about religion, what they are really complaining about is culture.

Of course socio-economics play a role.

And while Nate may insinuate that the Quran demands jihadist behavior, he's just distorting history just like extremists/radicals distort Islam.

If Islam was inherently violent then why were there hundreds of years of peaceful co-existence? Did you know that the Jews used to seek sanctuary among the Muslims when they were being relentlessly persecuted by Christians?

Read Zachary Karabell's book Peace Be Upon You: Fourteen Centuries of Muslim, Christian and Jewish Conflict and Cooperation. The guy is an award-winning historian with no axe to grind.

It's been approximately the past 70 years where extremists have taken a growing foothold and began using religion as an excuse to do harm to others. Yes, there is a problem among a significant minority of Muslims who are acting like barbarians.

But, even though there are messages in the Quran (and more so in the Hadith) that are either clearly advocating violent acts in some circumstances, as all holy books do, or interpreted that way, there are also passages that advocate peace. A few examples:

"who so kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

“Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

“I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ”



Many Muslims put as much or more stock in those words as they do in any call to wage jihad.









So you say I distort history and then make my point for me. Imagine my confusion

Islam is being used by murderers today and for the 1637364362728th time we are talking about that percentage that is committing these acts you fucking retard stop throwing the same strawman out
We live today


You sound like an angry fellow, Nate. That would make you a prime target for recruiters who want to bring down the infidels.

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19nate79
Oct 26 2014, 07:05 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 26 2014, 04:25 PM
Tallica
Oct 26 2014, 12:01 PM
It's much easier for people to criticize Christianity. It's the equivalent to "white" in a racial discussion. No one cares if you talk shit about it. I mean, some do, but no one cares that they care.
I question the very idea of attacking any religion. In modern times, it's an useless endeavor until bigger and more important issues are dealt with first.I'm not saying religion isn't an issue, I'm saying it's less of an issue when compared to others, and that dealing with those first would make it less difficult to deal with religious issues.
Again wrong

We aren't worried about the guy that goes to his mosque and then plays softball and goes home

We are talking about a significant minority that are ok with suicide bombing all the way to the majority that want sharia law.

As crazy as jihad,stoning adulterers, and the other stuff on the pole are the number that aren't actively doing it but support it is very high even in places like england. That means they want this stuff but just aren't allowed to do it. That's a problem. That's them following their religion. What's worse is what happens when criticized or made fun of. Everybody here has heard catholic jokes on TV or seen videos of people making fun of Westboro. The book of Mormon is still running. South park did scientology. Where are the drawings of the prophet or allah? What would happen if we allow that?
The thing is, I don't deny you that some of the CULTURAL and NON-RELIGIOUS aspects of Islam is a huge problem. I have never denied that. What I dispute is, you have to separate the theology from the current uses of theology. The ultimate problem is the people abusing and using religion as an excuse for their actions, not the religion itself. Ultimately, the problem is people and the culture of those people, misusing and abusing religion, not the other way around. Now add poor political representation and not a great economy for the poor in certain areas, and you get a power keg.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 26 2014, 07:34 PM.
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19nate79

Holy crap it's like talking to a brick

Do you want to go back through and read my posts. Youre repeating my arguments and disagree in g with them in the same sentence
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19nate79

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/10/25/comment/an-open-letter-to-ben-affleck/
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