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Ben Aflac is a moron
Topic Started: Oct 6 2014, 07:04 PM (2,442 Views)
19nate79

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19nate79

HugeMMAFan
Oct 23 2014, 02:19 AM
I hate anti-religious arguments, because they never get to the core of the issues. No matter how smart an argument is framed or correct it is, if the target of the argument is wrong, it solves nothing. It's like putting a bandaid on the arm that doesn't have the wound. Yes, the bandaid will help, but if you put in the wrong place, what's the point?

bullshit.

if you say i am killing you because god says to and i take away god you have to own up to the rest of that statement and defend it as such.

that's why anti religion is the only argument

after that you are forced to debate or act based on logic. logic can be questioned and changed with new information. religion cannot unless you divorce yourself from certain ideas in your religion. that's where you begin picking and choosing what you will or will not do in spite of your religion. that starts you toward being agnostic at least.

if you can't quote the bible or koran to defend a deplorable act you are left with because i want to as your only defense and that won;t hold up to the scrutiny of even the simplest mind
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19nate79
Oct 23 2014, 08:57 PM
if you say i am killing you because god says to and i take away god you have to own up to the rest of that statement and defend it as such.
What the hell are you even saying? This much of statements makes absolutely no sense. What are you even trying to say here?

19nate79
Oct 23 2014, 08:57 PM

that's why anti religion is the only argument

after that you are forced to debate or act based on logic. logic can be questioned and changed with new information. religion cannot unless you divorce yourself from certain ideas in your religion. that's where you begin picking and choosing what you will or will not do in spite of your religion. that starts you toward being agnostic at least.

if you can't quote the bible or koran to defend a deplorable act you are left with because i want to as your only defense and that won;t hold up to the scrutiny of even the simplest mind


This part of your statements make way more sense. You should cut out the first part. It doesn't jive with the second. It's like two people that think they are arguing on the same side when it actually looks they are arguing against each other. In any case...

Most of the arguments against Islam is a really an argument against Arabic culture. But Atheists don't want to be seen as attacking culture, because it goes what they believe. They are "hiding" behind arguments of religion. You can switch the words "religion" with "culture" and Islam with "Arabic culture", and then you will see where the real issue lies.There are Muslims in the USA, but have adopted more aspects of American culture are fairly peaceful.

I'm not saying culture is the only issue here (political and economic issues are actually a bigger issue), but people who make arguments against religion should really direct the arguments against culture.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 24 2014, 03:13 PM.
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HugeMMAFan
Oct 24 2014, 02:52 PM
I'm not saying culture is the only issue here (political and economic issues are actually a bigger issue), but people who make arguments against religion should really direct the arguments against culture.
I think it's a combination of all the factors you mention.

Some people rightfully blame religion in certain circumstances. In other instances, people tend to immediately say religion is the cause of certain actions when cultural, political or financial motivations are equally or more so the actual motivation.

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split decision
Oct 24 2014, 04:41 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 24 2014, 02:52 PM
I'm not saying culture is the only issue here (political and economic issues are actually a bigger issue), but people who make arguments against religion should really direct the arguments against culture.
I think it's a combination of all the factors you mention.

Some people rightfully blame religion in certain circumstances. In other instances, people tend to immediately say religion is the cause of certain actions when cultural, political or financial motivations are equally or more so the actual motivation.

I've said this before, but I concede that religion CAN be the issue. However, I think cultural, political, and economic issues need to be dealth with before you can even touch religion.
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19nate79

HugeMMAFan
Oct 24 2014, 09:51 PM
split decision
Oct 24 2014, 04:41 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 24 2014, 02:52 PM
I'm not saying culture is the only issue here (political and economic issues are actually a bigger issue), but people who make arguments against religion should really direct the arguments against culture.
I think it's a combination of all the factors you mention.

Some people rightfully blame religion in certain circumstances. In other instances, people tend to immediately say religion is the cause of certain actions when cultural, political or financial motivations are equally or more so the actual motivation.

I've said this before, but I concede that religion CAN be the issue. However, I think cultural, political, and economic issues need to be dealth with before you can even touch religion.
Again you can look at the polls and go to the best countries on there and still significant minorities (30% or so) believe in heinous shit like suicide bombing. So WHY do the best examples possible have deplorable opinions? why do the ones in England and america still hold these beliefs in such incredibly large numbers?
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19nate79

also if you watch the debate i posted at the 1 hour 10 minute mark roughly sam addresses your point hugemma and reiterates some of what i said earlier. those factors you name are not as big as you think
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19nate79
Oct 24 2014, 11:45 PM
also if you watch the debate i posted at the 1 hour 10 minute mark roughly sam addresses your point hugemma and reiterates some of what i said earlier. those factors you name are not as big as you think


Like I said, I think he's wrong. If you look at where conflicts exist, it's more often in places where culture has yet to catch up modernity, economics are failing, and political structures are outdated. Look at almost every nation that's on the uprise. Stable Economy? Check. Modern Culture? Check. A fair and Accountable Political System? Check.

Look at every failed state in the Middle East that has the most extremists. Iraq's Economy? Failing. Political Structure? Weak. Culture? Man, I don't even want to go there. Or look at Syria. Failing state politically, about break up into separate entities.

Any "stable" Middle Eastern has one of these issues. Saudia Arabia, alright economy (if you have oil or royalty money), but politically rigid and unfair system. Culturally at odds, where the cultural norms apply to regular but the upper class sometimes get to break. Or Bahrain, which has gotten very rich over the years, but if you stand up to the political system, you get your ass beat down. Or Jordan, which is an "ally" which is a monarchy.

Hardly any of the Middle Eastern states, failed or non-failed, qualify as a modern democracy, save Turkey and Israel. (Interestingly enough non-modern Turkish people aren't originally from the Middle East anyway, which makes me wonder how different their culture is).

19nate79
Oct 24 2014, 11:15 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 24 2014, 09:51 PM
split decision
Oct 24 2014, 04:41 PM
HugeMMAFan
Oct 24 2014, 02:52 PM
I'm not saying culture is the only issue here (political and economic issues are actually a bigger issue), but people who make arguments against religion should really direct the arguments against culture.
I think it's a combination of all the factors you mention.

Some people rightfully blame religion in certain circumstances. In other instances, people tend to immediately say religion is the cause of certain actions when cultural, political or financial motivations are equally or more so the actual motivation.

I've said this before, but I concede that religion CAN be the issue. However, I think cultural, political, and economic issues need to be dealth with before you can even touch religion.
Again you can look at the polls and go to the best countries on there and still significant minorities (30% or so) believe in heinous shit like suicide bombing. So WHY do the best examples possible have deplorable opinions? why do the ones in England and america still hold these beliefs in such incredibly large numbers?


You don't address my point - what makes you think those minorities believing and actually doing bad things are about religion and not about culture, politics, or economics?

I never dispute that some of those people believe in heinous things. What I do dispute though, is "what" those people are. You say they are minorities are people of "Islam". I say they are minorities of the people of "Arabic cultures", regardless of what their religious tendencies.. That's the difference.

If you look deeper into what I said, my argument is actually more damning than yours. In fact, I probably include a larger (yet possibly different subset) of people than you do. I'm not being "nice" in what I'm saying.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 25 2014, 01:30 AM.
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19nate79

Arabic like the Iranians? Or do you mean middle eastern and Africa and Asia and a slight drop off in the first world?
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19nate79

i guess you didn't watch the video. i don;t want to just ype out what was said in it

you have people from the us, germany, etc... that "sign up" for isis. they have money. they have opportunity. they leave here to go there and blow themselves up. we're talking about drs, engineers, etc...

the 9/11 hijackers were college grads

economics seems to play the opposite role

politics is another discussion, but it's not the main reason people do this stuff at all
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19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 01:53 AM
i guess you didn't watch the video. i don;t want to just ype out what was said in it

you have people from the us, germany, etc... that "sign up" for isis. they have money. they have opportunity. they leave here to go there and blow themselves up. we're talking about drs, engineers, etc...

the 9/11 hijackers were college grads

economics seems to play the opposite role

politics is another discussion, but it's not the main reason people do this stuff at all
There are undoubtedly some well-educated recruits among ISIS.

But you can't prove there are many, or anywhere near a majority. It makes for great news stories when people are even more shocked to find out a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer signed up to become a jihadist but I'll bet most of their ranks are listless young men who don't have a stable job or future prospects.
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19nate79

Well that answer is more complex
How about an incredibly abbreviated version which is that religion makes you not only able but happy to blow yourself up. The political environment, like palestine, provides the platform
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19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 01:44 AM
Arabic like the Iranians? Or do you mean middle eastern and Africa and Asia and a slight drop off in the first world?


If you look at where the current hotbeds of large number of militants, they are substantial parts of the ancient Eastern Roman Empire, which includes Egypt, tiny parts of Iraq, some parts of Syria, and parts of North Africa. I think I've said something similar before. No, I'm not blaming the ERE, but a large part of where this is all happening was part of the ERE at certain points.

19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 01:53 AM
i guess you didn't watch the video. i don;t want to just ype out what was said in it

you have people from the us, germany, etc... that "sign up" for isis. they have money. they have opportunity. they leave here to go there and blow themselves up. we're talking about drs, engineers, etc...

the 9/11 hijackers were college grads

economics seems to play the opposite role

politics is another discussion, but it's not the main reason people do this stuff at all


Didn't I say before that, just because INDIVIDUALS are educated become terrorists, doesn't mean the SOCIETIES they come from are more likely to be educated or to produce terrorists (whichever you are trying to prove or disprove).

First off, if what you say was true, then places where terrorists come from should have high levels of college education for men. I don't know if this is true or false, but let's look at it the other way. If what you say is true, places with higher levels of education tend to be terrorist havens or more likely to produce terrorists, which is not true. Everyone in the United States and Western Europe would be much better candidates for terrorists because they are college educated, but that's simply not true.

Maybe a better economic status for individuals MIGHT make INDIVIDUAL terrorists (and I don't believe that), but does economic status of a REGION make it likely to breed terrorists or become terrorist havens? No, it doesn't.

Also, tell me what you kind of "terrorist" you are talking about. If you are talking about the terrorists that attacked the USA directly, I don't think I dispute that they might be college educated (I don't have the facts on hand, but I'll concede that one). But what about the majority of "Terrorists" in Afghanistan, Iraq, and in Syria? Are most of them college educated? There's a lot of them to be simply college educated.

So, which set of "terrorists" are you talking about? Are you talking about ALL terrorists, including ones that have not attacked the United States directly? Are you talking about local terrorists who may or may not have access to education?

split decision
Oct 25 2014, 02:27 AM
19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 01:53 AM
i guess you didn't watch the video. i don;t want to just ype out what was said in it

you have people from the us, germany, etc... that "sign up" for isis. they have money. they have opportunity. they leave here to go there and blow themselves up. we're talking about drs, engineers, etc...

the 9/11 hijackers were college grads

economics seems to play the opposite role

politics is another discussion, but it's not the main reason people do this stuff at all
There are undoubtedly some well-educated recruits among ISIS.

But you can't prove there are many, or anywhere near a majority. It makes for great news stories when people are even more shocked to find out a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer signed up to become a jihadist but I'll bet most of their ranks are listless young men who don't have a stable job or future prospects.


I agree. Is anyone really that surprised that the leaders of these groups are the most educated, and therefore, the most able to lead these groups? It doesn't mean they are the norm or even the representative sample of the group.

19nate79
Oct 25 2014, 04:06 AM
Well that answer is more complex
How about an incredibly abbreviated version which is that religion makes you not only able but happy to blow yourself up. The political environment, like palestine, provides the platform


Look, no one has ever denied that religion contributes PARTLY to the problem. However, what I saying (over and over, until people get it) economics, politics, and culture contribute more than religion does. I also posit that when people complain about religion, what they are really complaining about is culture.
Edited by HugeMMAFan, Oct 25 2014, 02:58 PM.
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19nate79

And youre wrong
Jihad is real
It's in the Koran
The prophet did it
He's the example these people follow
They say they are going to do it
They say islam demands it
You don't need me than that but there is more
Isis hamas Hezbollah and more than I'm not going to attempt with auto correct at the helm are just the most extreme edge and unfortunately the fringe isn't 1 or 2%. That's the problem

So we really need to address the Muslims that don't believe in stoning adulterers and cutting off the hands and feet of criminals. Unfortunately that number is too fucking low. Sharia law cannot be tolerated and look at those numbers. That's the problem. This rreligion is still followed in a pretty fundamental way by a massive number of people.

The fact remains that in the best countries on that list like turkey you still have large numbers. Those people have money education and opportunities and yet they yearn for worse conditions

You look at the ones in first world countries and they still hold those beliefs and convert people to it, who might already be crazy (debatable).

I literally believe that you come from such a sheltered (for lack of better term) first world life you can't comprehend people actually wanting this.
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19nate79

I wonder if white people were muslims if you'd have the same issue with denouncing them. No white guilt to default to
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