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Immigration -- where do you stand?
Topic Started: Aug 7 2014, 01:20 AM (1,095 Views)
LordZardoz
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BDW
Aug 7 2014, 01:48 PM
Uh...poverty and racism (in the sense you're pushing them as) are NOT prevelant in the geographical areas that Mexicans would enter the country at. Just saying.
If you say so. I am basing that line of reasoning mostly on stereotypes of the American South.

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Skeletonrock
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Yeah, it's pretty obvious you are basing your views on a cartoon version of a stereotype. Also, the "American South" doesn't refer to Texas, New Mexico, California, etc. When people talk about The South, the are generally referring to the southeastern United States; places like Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, etc.
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Tallica
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Skeletonrock
Aug 7 2014, 02:25 PM
Yeah, it's pretty obvious you are basing your views on a cartoon version of a stereotype. Also, the "American South" doesn't refer to Texas, New Mexico, California, etc. When people talk about The South, the are generally referring to the southeastern United States; places like Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, etc.
the reason i think there is merit to Zardoz's "theory" is that most of the people who are adamantly opposed to immigration and most vocal ARE basically real life cartoon stereotypes.
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Wahoo08
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Skeletonrock
Aug 7 2014, 02:18 PM
I don't like the argument, "we are all immigrants" because our ancestors immigrated from somewhere. We simply aren't the same country we were when this nation began. We don't need or want your poor, tired, or huddled masses. To pretend that it's the same as then is pointless.

That said, illegals play a huge role in this country. They are also a huge burden. I don't like that we have this weird, "gray market" if you will of second class citizens that keep of food and housing cheap, but make our schools and healthcare skyrocket.

Also, I get why Lord Zardoz is making his guesses, but he couldn't be further from the truth.

1.). How are we a different country? And why can we no longer accept "your poor, tired, or huddled masses"?

2.). Wouldn't giving illegal immigrant a chance to become legal immigrants (or more specifically, give them a more efficient way to enter in legally) solve many of your concerns?
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LordZardoz
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Wahoo08
Aug 7 2014, 03:23 PM
2.). Wouldn't giving illegal immigrant a chance to become legal immigrants (or more specifically, give them a more efficient way to enter in legally) solve many of your concerns?
I do not think that plan would work when you consider the current immigration situation. People are too angry and defensive about their jobs. The people who complain the loudest about immigration are people who feel like their jobs are threatened by cheap immigrant labour. It does not matter if the jobs your talking about computer programmers who work in the US under and H1-B visa, or taxi drivers, or waitstaff at a restaurant. Someone who is convinced they lost a job to a foreigner are going to be pissed off, and because the foreigner talks funny and looks different, people feel like they can get away with treating them as being less then people.

There was a pretty big scandal in Canada recently about abuses of the Temporary Foreign Worker program. On paper, it was supposed to allow companies to hire employees from other countries if they can prove that hiring locally was too difficult, and they would have to pay. In practice, that was abused and that program has been temporarily suspended because some guy got pissed off about not being able to get a job flipping burgers full time.

For years that program went well. Then someone successfully lobbied to have the jobs that could qualify for that type of work visa to extend to service workers.

The result is that some asshole who owned a few McDonalds locations worked with a company that specialized in getting people from the Phillipines into Canada. The prospective employee would end up paying the company in the Philippines one or two thousand dollars to find them a job. The job was guaranteed to be full time and higher then minimum wage. But the McDonalds owner would tell the worker that an apartment would be provided. The owner then moved the guy into a $1200 a month apartment that he had to share with 3 or 4 guys, and that was sublet to the workers at a total rent of $2000 a month (so owner gets a profit on the apartment). Add to that mandatory long hours with no sick leave or vacation, as well as frequent threats of getting fired and sent back to their country of origin. Also throw in some unpaid overtime or wage theft.

This was how things worked at that location, and other places until random local bitched about not being able to work full time at McDonalds because all the jobs were held by Philipinos. That program has since been put on hiatus and is undergoing review. But restaurant owners are bitching because their costs are going to go up, and because locals tend to be unreliable as far as consistently showing up on time for shifts. The employees that they can threaten with deportation tend to be more reliable.

To my mind, I have no problem if some guy from some other country is willing to flip burgers for shit pay. I consider the owner of the McDonalds to be in the wrong for basically corrupting the system. But a huge amount of the anger from that incident gets directed at the foreign workers. And the only thing those foreign workers did wrong was to work their ass off flipping burgers in foreign country while putting up with spectacular levels of corruption and shit baggery.

I am convinced that if you create a fast track to citizenship for immigrants holding low skill jobs, something will get fucked up because of corruption at some point. Someone will abuse the program, and then it will get shut down once the complaints get loud enough, even if the complaints have almost nothing to do with the potential immigrants.

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Tallica
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LordZardoz
Aug 7 2014, 04:10 PM
Wahoo08
Aug 7 2014, 03:23 PM
2.). Wouldn't giving illegal immigrant a chance to become legal immigrants (or more specifically, give them a more efficient way to enter in legally) solve many of your concerns?
I do not think that plan would work when you consider the current immigration situation. People are too angry and defensive about their jobs. The people who complain the loudest about immigration are people who feel like their jobs are threatened by cheap immigrant labour. It does not matter if the jobs your talking about computer programmers who work in the US under and H1-B visa, or taxi drivers, or waitstaff at a restaurant. Someone who is convinced they lost a job to a foreigner are going to be pissed off, and because the foreigner talks funny and looks different, people feel like they can get away with treating them as being less then people.

There was a pretty big scandal in Canada recently about abuses of the Temporary Foreign Worker program. On paper, it was supposed to allow companies to hire employees from other countries if they can prove that hiring locally was too difficult, and they would have to pay. In practice, that was abused and that program has been temporarily suspended because some guy got pissed off about not being able to get a job flipping burgers full time.

For years that program went well. Then someone successfully lobbied to have the jobs that could qualify for that type of work visa to extend to service workers.

The result is that some asshole who owned a few McDonalds locations worked with a company that specialized in getting people from the Phillipines into Canada. The prospective employee would end up paying the company in the Philippines one or two thousand dollars to find them a job. The job was guaranteed to be full time and higher then minimum wage. But the McDonalds owner would tell the worker that an apartment would be provided. The owner then moved the guy into a $1200 a month apartment that he had to share with 3 or 4 guys, and that was sublet to the workers at a total rent of $2000 a month (so owner gets a profit on the apartment). Add to that mandatory long hours with no sick leave or vacation, as well as frequent threats of getting fired and sent back to their country of origin. Also throw in some unpaid overtime or wage theft.

This was how things worked at that location, and other places until random local bitched about not being able to work full time at McDonalds because all the jobs were held by Philipinos. That program has since been put on hiatus and is undergoing review. But restaurant owners are bitching because their costs are going to go up, and because locals tend to be unreliable as far as consistently showing up on time for shifts. The employees that they can threaten with deportation tend to be more reliable.

To my mind, I have no problem if some guy from some other country is willing to flip burgers for shit pay. I consider the owner of the McDonalds to be in the wrong for basically corrupting the system. But a huge amount of the anger from that incident gets directed at the foreign workers. And the only thing those foreign workers did wrong was to work their ass off flipping burgers in foreign country while putting up with spectacular levels of corruption and shit baggery.

I am convinced that if you create a fast track to citizenship for immigrants holding low skill jobs, something will get fucked up because of corruption at some point. Someone will abuse the program, and then it will get shut down once the complaints get loud enough, even if the complaints have almost nothing to do with the potential immigrants.

END COMMUNICATION
Jmose, can you please give us cliff notes? :)
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19nate79

Wahoo08
Aug 7 2014, 03:23 PM
Skeletonrock
Aug 7 2014, 02:18 PM
I don't like the argument, "we are all immigrants" because our ancestors immigrated from somewhere. We simply aren't the same country we were when this nation began. We don't need or want your poor, tired, or huddled masses. To pretend that it's the same as then is pointless.

That said, illegals play a huge role in this country. They are also a huge burden. I don't like that we have this weird, "gray market" if you will of second class citizens that keep of food and housing cheap, but make our schools and healthcare skyrocket.

Also, I get why Lord Zardoz is making his guesses, but he couldn't be further from the truth.

1.). How are we a different country? And why can we no longer accept "your poor, tired, or huddled masses"?

2.). Wouldn't giving illegal immigrant a chance to become legal immigrants (or more specifically, give them a more efficient way to enter in legally) solve many of your concerns?


Not really but are they legitimate concerns really?
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Blanka

Immigration is great. Getting the right kind of people into your country who are willing to contribute to your economy in a positive way is amazing. Imagine the actual millions of dollars is costs to actually raise a citizen from birth to an age where they finally contribute and when you get someone in here who is already educated and ready to contribute that is an amazing deal for your country.

People want to point out the negatives and freeloaders. But even they are amazing for the economy. It really isn't a bad thing that someone who is on welfare or any type of assistance exists because basically they are paid government employees only their actual job is just to distribute that free government money through the economy which benefits everyone in the long run anyways. I was talking about this with a friend who really hates that welfare people go and blow their checks on liquor or at a casino and I pointed out to him that it is just another way to keep those people at the stores or casinos gainfully employed at dirt cheap prices same with the mcdonalds and walmarts frequently visited by that class of people.
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Wahoo08
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Zardoz,

I think the problems you described are legitimate, but they are in large part caused by the second rate citizenship that is given to immigrants (both illegal and legal). A citizen has less to fear from speaking up about illegal working/living conditions. An immigrant that fears deportation is going to be less inclined to speak up than one that lives under the threat of being turned in or having their work visa revoked by their employer or landlord.

I'd imagine that immigrants most often do compete with lower wage service workers for jobs, but I'm not really arguing for larger number of immigrants. I'm arguing that we should make it easier for immigrants that are coming over to do it legally. Legal immigration is better than illegal immigration for everybody involved.
Edited by Wahoo08, Aug 7 2014, 06:25 PM.
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LordZardoz
Aug 7 2014, 04:10 PM
Wahoo08
Aug 7 2014, 03:23 PM
2.). Wouldn't giving illegal immigrant a chance to become legal immigrants (or more specifically, give them a more efficient way to enter in legally) solve many of your concerns?
I do not think that plan would work when you consider the current immigration situation. People are too angry and defensive about their jobs. The people who complain the loudest about immigration are people who feel like their jobs are threatened by cheap immigrant labour. It does not matter if the jobs your talking about computer programmers who work in the US under and H1-B visa, or taxi drivers, or waitstaff at a restaurant. Someone who is convinced they lost a job to a foreigner are going to be pissed off, and because the foreigner talks funny and looks different, people feel like they can get away with treating them as being less then people.

There was a pretty big scandal in Canada recently about abuses of the Temporary Foreign Worker program. On paper, it was supposed to allow companies to hire employees from other countries if they can prove that hiring locally was too difficult, and they would have to pay. In practice, that was abused and that program has been temporarily suspended because some guy got pissed off about not being able to get a job flipping burgers full time.

For years that program went well. Then someone successfully lobbied to have the jobs that could qualify for that type of work visa to extend to service workers.

The result is that some asshole who owned a few McDonalds locations worked with a company that specialized in getting people from the Phillipines into Canada. The prospective employee would end up paying the company in the Philippines one or two thousand dollars to find them a job. The job was guaranteed to be full time and higher then minimum wage. But the McDonalds owner would tell the worker that an apartment would be provided. The owner then moved the guy into a $1200 a month apartment that he had to share with 3 or 4 guys, and that was sublet to the workers at a total rent of $2000 a month (so owner gets a profit on the apartment). Add to that mandatory long hours with no sick leave or vacation, as well as frequent threats of getting fired and sent back to their country of origin. Also throw in some unpaid overtime or wage theft.

This was how things worked at that location, and other places until random local bitched about not being able to work full time at McDonalds because all the jobs were held by Philipinos. That program has since been put on hiatus and is undergoing review. But restaurant owners are bitching because their costs are going to go up, and because locals tend to be unreliable as far as consistently showing up on time for shifts. The employees that they can threaten with deportation tend to be more reliable.

To my mind, I have no problem if some guy from some other country is willing to flip burgers for shit pay. I consider the owner of the McDonalds to be in the wrong for basically corrupting the system. But a huge amount of the anger from that incident gets directed at the foreign workers. And the only thing those foreign workers did wrong was to work their ass off flipping burgers in foreign country while putting up with spectacular levels of corruption and shit baggery.

I am convinced that if you create a fast track to citizenship for immigrants holding low skill jobs, something will get fucked up because of corruption at some point. Someone will abuse the program, and then it will get shut down once the complaints get loud enough, even if the complaints have almost nothing to do with the potential immigrants.

END COMMUNICATION
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Ash
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Skeletonrock
Aug 7 2014, 02:25 PM
Yeah, it's pretty obvious you are basing your views on a cartoon version of a stereotype. Also, the "American South" doesn't refer to Texas, New Mexico, California, etc. When people talk about The South, the are generally referring to the southeastern United States; places like Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, etc.


I suspect we've got a Texan here!
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split decision
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Porn savant
I read Zardoz's post and he describes the problems with the Canadian Temporary Foreign Worker Program accurately.

But I resist the attitude that we can't have a fast-track program because it's going to be abused. Most government programs can and are abused. We have to be more vigilant and politicians have to be more accountable.

We need more Sheila Frasers in this country, an auditor general who knew her shit and brought a lot of politicians to their knees (or at least made them look awfully bad).
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19nate79

Supposedly the unions were against immigration last time around

Seems that would alleviate the fears of them undercutting construction workers and whatnot
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Strongo
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cockcrusher
How can you write that much about immigrants on a mma forum.

zardos out.
Edited by Strongo, Aug 8 2014, 04:01 PM.
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Strongo
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cockcrusher
oh and i didn't read. way too fucking long.
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