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War in Israel and Palestine
Topic Started: Jul 17 2014, 09:36 AM (2,022 Views)
19nate79

I don't recall but did we condemn England when they were in India or France in all the countries they were in?
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Darc Requiem
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19nate79
Jul 18 2014, 12:35 AM
I don't recall but did we condemn England when they were in India or France in all the countries they were in?
The US didn't really become a world power until after WWII.
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Skeletonrock
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This is an interesting video. Not entirely sure why it's edited the way it is, but interesting still. From 2013
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19nate79

Darc Requiem
Jul 18 2014, 01:16 AM
19nate79
Jul 18 2014, 12:35 AM
I don't recall but did we condemn England when they were in India or France in all the countries they were in?
The US didn't really become a world power until after WWII.
The British left Hong Kong in 1999 I believe.
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19nate79

As to the video
Any country in the middle east < Israel and not by a small margin

I mean seriously compare their record to any of their neighbors
Are they perfect? No. Do you see what surrounds them? How would you handle people around you like that?
Edited by 19nate79, Jul 18 2014, 03:57 AM.
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spasgur
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split decision
Jul 17 2014, 11:08 PM


As I said, both sides have made transgressions. But the anti-Semitic sentiment here extends beyond this thread. It's a handful of people, but you'd have to make an effort to turn a blind eye to it.

I don't know if you're directing your post at me or not but I'm not trying to spew anti-semitic stuff here. I don't like the way that Israel are handling this situation and have been handling it ever since they were given their land after WWII. Nor do I like the way that they were given their land.

I also do not like the way Hamas works though. I'm not picking sides here, I think both are at fault but I cannot blame Palestinians for being pissed off about being thrown out of their land because of a European guilt trip.

I was half-joking when I said they should have given the jews Vermont or Maine. Moving them from one place where they were percecuted, Germany and Eastern Europe, to another place where they were and still are disliked was a big mistake IMO.
Edited by spasgur, Jul 18 2014, 03:20 PM.
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spasgur
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19nate79
Jul 18 2014, 12:35 AM
I don't recall but did we condemn England when they were in India or France in all the countries they were in?
I don't know how large public condemnation was against the imperialist European countries but at least they've left a lot of the countries they occupied. However, it's debatable how well they handled running those former colonies and how well they've prepared those countries for independence.
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spasgur
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I lol'ed at that airforce officer at the end of that video just saying "you're absolutely wrong about that and we're moving on". Not giving a counter argument, not letting Scheuer respond or elaborate.
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I just don't like the fact that the US is drawn into this shit the way it is. We shouldn't support Israel. That doesn't mean we SHOULD support Palestine. We just need to get the fuck out of there and tell them to handle their own shit and remove ourselves from Israel's tit.
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Skeletonrock
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19nate79
Jul 18 2014, 03:54 AM
As to the video
Any country in the middle east < Israel and not by a small margin

I mean seriously compare their record to any of their neighbors
Are they perfect? No. Do you see what surrounds them? How would you handle people around you like that?
I dont want to make his point for him, because I 'm not sure I agree with him, but I think what he was saying is he doesn't want US citizens dying for and spending their money for Israel; not that it is or isn't better than the other countries around it.
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danl08
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spasgur
Jul 17 2014, 09:41 PM
It was a pretty stupid idea to give the jews Israel after WWII. They should've given them Vermont or Maine or some other state that noone cares about
jews have have lived in the area continuously for centuries. There were Jews living in Gaza before 0 AD, there are census reports from the late 1400s showing thousands living there then and even up to the middle of the 20th Century. Why should they have to live somewhere else in the world? The ones that came after the forming of Israel were at one time from Judea/Samaria and left/were forced to leave after being invaded by Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Ottoman, etc.

After WWII the territory was being run by the Brits and the UN decided to form a Jewish state and an Arab one that would sit next to it. The Arabs didn't like that and chose instead to attack the Jews otherwise there would be 2 states today. All of the countries in this area were formed in similar manners - Syria, Iraq, Jordan, etc...
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danl08
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Darc Requiem
Jul 17 2014, 09:47 PM
dhk1980
Jul 17 2014, 09:44 PM
btw, if the holocaust never happened, would they have gotten their land after WWII?
Nope and it really wasn't their land at the point. The Palestinians were living there. The world looked the other way while Hitler slaughtered the Jews. To apologize, they went to Palestine and carved out Israel. It's a classic case of two wrongs don't make a right.
There were no such things as Palestinians at the time. Those people were mostly Jordanian and there were plenty of Jews that already lived there. For example, go look up Hebron Massacre 1929. This is a place where thousands of Jews lived (which they are now forbidden from living in). The two states were formed to allow both groups to have their own country since Jews living in Arab lands tended to live under their thumb and never has any autonomy.

Proportionality nonsense: Imagine what Hamas would do to Israel if they had military superiority. Do you think they'd be making targeted strikes, calling before bombing places and going out of their way to avoid killing people? If they had a nuclear bomb they would immediately drop it to kill as many Jews as possible. Thats all they care about - killing Jews.

Also, have you ever heard of any country not using their superiority over an enemy? Its absurd. The US does it all the time We take out people with drones, we "Shock and Awe" countries we are attacking, we give everything we have to fight an enemy. When NATO bombed Serbia they killed thousands, guess how many NATO soldiers died - 0. That list goes on and on and on. Only Israel is expected to have some idiotic approach of only being able to throw rocks at people who throw rocks at them.
Edited by danl08, Jul 18 2014, 02:57 PM.
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spasgur
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danl08
Jul 18 2014, 02:28 PM
jews have have lived in the area continuously for centuries. There were Jews living in Gaza before 0 AD, there are census reports from the late 1400s showing thousands living there then and even up to the middle of the 20th Century. Why should they have to live somewhere else in the world? The ones that came after the forming of Israel were at one time from Judea/Samaria and left/were forced to leave after being invaded by Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Ottoman, etc.

After WWII the territory was being run by the Brits and the UN decided to form a Jewish state and an Arab one that would sit next to it. The Arabs didn't like that and chose instead to attack the Jews otherwise there would be 2 states today. All of the countries in this area were formed in similar manners - Syria, Iraq, Jordan, etc...
Jews have lived there for centuries but so have muslims and before both of those religions there were even older civilizations. I don't think the jews who lived there pre WWII should have to move at all, but the founding a jewish state in the middle of a predominantly muslim/Arab area was pretty much bound to mean trouble. Jews have a religious connection to Israel and Jerusalem so I can somewhat understand how it is such a holy place for them but that is IMO not a good reason to split up the land there.
Jews have been persecuted for millennia and I can see how it must be important to find a place where they can live in peace, away from primitive and medieval bigotry but the way it was handled was poor IMO, and how it has been handled since is just a result of giving them a country in a hot zone.

The Arabs are not without fault though and I'm not trying to imply only jews and the West are to be blamed. It should be possible to for the muslims and jews to live together but religion and ignorance can turn people into intolerant and hateful dicks.
I can't see this ongoing conflict ever ending. There might be periods of low activity and truce might come into effect but eventually there will be a suicide bombing or a rocket attack and then we're back to the endless revenge merry-go-round.

EDIT: What I meant by disproportionality was, that Israel seem to kill way too many civilians to how many Hamas they kill. Many of the attacks are done on speculative grounds and we the information is two way. I don't mean that they should use the same kind of attacks as Hamas and only use primitive rockets, I only think that they should do their attacks a little less recklessly than they're currently doing. A recent Vice News video showed that an Israeli rocket hit just meters away from the international hotel in Gaza City where a lot of the international press live when they're in the Gaza strip and there were a report a couple of days ago of a rocket hitting a beach where kids were playing. There are too many of these cases. I'm not implying that only Israel does this, the West are very good at fucking up too.
Edited by spasgur, Jul 18 2014, 03:14 PM.
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split decision
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spasgur
Jul 18 2014, 08:06 AM
split decision
Jul 17 2014, 11:08 PM


As I said, both sides have made transgressions. But the anti-Semitic sentiment here extends beyond this thread. It's a handful of people, but you'd have to make an effort to turn a blind eye to it.

I don't know if you're directing your post at me or not but I'm not trying to spew anti-semitic stuff here. I don't like the way that Israel are handling this situation and have been handling it ever since they were given their land after WWII. Nor do I like the way that they were given their land.

I also do not like the way Hamas works though. I'm not picking sides here, I think both are at fault but I cannot blame Palestinians for being pissed off about being thrown out of their land because of a European guilt trip.

I was half-joking when I said they should have given the jews Vermont or Maine. Moving them from one place where they were percecuted, Germany and Easter Europe, to another place where they were and still are disliked was a big mistake IMO.
Spasgur, my problem is with those who like to spout off with:

"Fuck the Jews (or the Muslims or the Christians or whoever), they're all like this..."

The stereotyping drives me crazy!

The only time I would consciously do that is when referring to sworn members of radical groups like ISIS, like Al-Qaeda, who have pledged their lives to wipe out Westerners. Those are the enemy.

There are good people and assholes within every other group. No need to make sweeping statements about them all (not saying you did).

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JC-Freakhead
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Hamas is not really that far from the Taliban and it's only their lack of resources that prevents them from killing large amounts of Israeli civilians. Women are not allowed to dance in Gaza, for example. I just have to root for the side that shares my values more. I mean, was it right to give that piece of land to Israel? Probably not, but on the other hand, do we really need another hardcore islamist country?
Edited by JC-Freakhead, Jul 18 2014, 03:41 PM.
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