VK Private

 

Jonah 3:5 The people of Nineveh believed in God, and they declared a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them. 3:6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he got up from his throne, took off his royal robe, put on sackcloth, and sat on ashes. 3:7 He issued a proclamation and said, “In Nineveh, by the decree of the king and his nobles: No human or animal, cattle or sheep, is to taste anything; they must not eat and they must not drink water. 3:8 Every person and animal must put on sackcloth and must cry earnestly to God, and everyone must turn from their evil way of living and from the violence that they do. 3:9 Who knows? Perhaps God might be willing to change his mind and relent and turn from his fierce anger so that we might not die.” 3:10 When God saw their actions – they turned from their evil way of living! – God relented concerning the judgment he had threatened them with and he did not destroy them.

Jonah preached that God will destroyed Nineveh if they do not repent from their sins. They believed in God and were saved, but this faith resulted in repentance from sin.

Does it not follow that true faith should result in repentance from sin IF it's to be salvific?

(not my argument, just trying to play the advocate for that view)

Thanks
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Posted: 20 Sep 2009 01:43 PM

Marty Cauley

 

should, yes.

will, no.

must, yes: to be temporally salvific.
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Posted: 22 Sep 2009 08:55 PM

Von McCrea

 

VK, first of all, it seems I have seen it said that the Ninevites repented of their sins and were saved from earthly temporal destruction but not eternal destruction. They were not Israelites. If they were indeed saved from eternal destruction, we have here an example of non-Israelites being saved without becoming Israelites. Did this occur before Israel was formed?

Second, true faith should not result in repentance from sin IF it's to be salvific. What makes faith salvific? Believing that you have the everlasting life offered to you by Christ. There's nothing in that statement that has anything to do with repenting from sin. I visited a new Baptist church on Sunday, kind of a Southern Independent Baptist church, and it wasn't too bad a church (this isn't Baptist country and I expect it to close) except the preacher said a person must repent of his sins to be saved. He talks about victory in Jesus, but apparently his kind of victory in Jesus goes only as far as you repented of your sins. He talked over and over about "Salvation is only by the shed blood of Christ." Okay, I got that the first time you said it; do you have to say it over and over for twenty minutes? Let's go on to something else. He did an altar call at the end and there were only about six in the congregation. Maybe he did it just for practice. I did a Google search last night on "believing in Jesus means" and most of the sites said that believing in Jesus means obeying Lordship Salvation, which was kind of eye-opening.
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Posted: 22 Sep 2009 09:21 PM

Trent H

 

Hi Von. In the old testament, I think you could believe in Yawheh with out becoming a Jew, and you could convert and become a Jew with out being a Believer. Jews did not even then gain eternal life because they followed the Law. They followed the Law because they were a covenant nation and God promised certain things to them if they did so. They voluntarily chose to enter this covenant. Before they became Isreal people gained eternal life, and after you have stories like Rahab and others where non Jews believed in the Jewish God. I think of the woman Elijah lived with and others.

That said, it does not follow that any or some ninevites gained eternal life. Some may have and some may not have, but repentance is to avoid God's wrath for believers and non believers alike. It can set the stage for belief as it does bring you closer to God. As the point of Jonah was not about eternal life, we will have to wait and see.

I think you probably already agree with most of what I said but thought I would jump in anyway.

Grace and Truth

Trent
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Posted: 23 Sep 2009 11:45 AM

VK Private

 

well, here is the problem. Jesus preached repentance (in the sense of salvation, right?)

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach this message: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Now, if repentance is in order to save human life, then how could it be tied with the kingdom of heaven?

Perhaps misthological entry is in view, but then 'repent' would mean "believe in Me for justification, but also change your life so that you can gain victorious entry", which impregnates 'repent' to the same degree as LS does with the word 'faith'.
Notice also, in Matt
12:41 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them – and now, something greater than Jonah is here! 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon – and now, something greater than Solomon is here!

Now, which repentance Jesus is talking about when he talks about the Ninevites? Is it their change of ACTIONS or their belief?

If it's their faith and not repentance, then why talk about their repentance?
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Posted: 24 Sep 2009 10:25 PM
Originally Posted: 24 Sep 2009 10:21 PM

VK Private

 

Also, check out this on the Revelations 9

9:20 The rest of humanity, who had not been killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so that they did not stop worshiping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood – idols that cannot see or hear or walk about. 9:21 Furthermore, they did not repent of their murders, of their magic spells, of their sexual immorality, or of their stealing.

Is it possible that the beievers will be among those who did not stop worshiping demons and idols?
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Posted: 24 Sep 2009 10:32 PM

Von McCrea

 

VK:
well, here is the problem. Jesus preached repentance (in the sense of salvation, right?)

Where did Jesus ever preach repentance in the sense of everlasting life?

VK:
Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach this message: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
Now, if repentance is in order to save human life, then how could it be tied with the kingdom of heaven?
Perhaps misthological entry is in view, but then 'repent' would mean "believe in Me for justification, but also change your life so that you can gain victorious entry", which impregnates 'repent' to the same degree as LS does with the word 'faith'.
Notice also, in Matt
12:41 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them – and now, something greater than Jonah is here! 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon – and now, something greater than Solomon is here!

It is common knowledge among Free Grace dispensationalists that the Israelites were supposed to repent because the Millennial Kingdom was being offered to them.

VK:
Now, which repentance Jesus is talking about when he talks about the Ninevites? Is it their change of ACTIONS or their belief?
If it's their faith and not repentance, then why talk about their repentance?

The Ninevites quit doing their abominable actions and God spared them from destruction, so it was their actions.

VK:
Also, check out this on the Revelations 9
9:20 The rest of humanity, who had not been killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so that they did not stop worshiping demons and idols made of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood – idols that cannot see or hear or walk about. 9:21 Furthermore, they did not repent of their murders, of their magic spells, of their sexual immorality, or of their stealing.
Is it possible that the beievers will be among those who did not stop worshiping demons and idols?

I suspect this is talking about a vast majority of unsaved people and not a small remnant of Israelites and Christians. It sounds like the people have no desire at all for God and righteousness.
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Posted: 25 Sep 2009 11:48 AM

Von McCrea

 

Trent H:
They voluntarily chose to enter this covenant.

People could drop in and out of Judaism with no penalties? Wasn’t there a law that you had to circumcise your son and stuff?

Trent H:
Before they became Isreal people gained eternal life, and after you have stories like Rahab and others where non Jews believed in the Jewish God. I think of the woman Elijah lived with and others.

It may be hard to find an example of a non-Jew being saved after Judaism was instituted and before Pentecost that would convince Mid-Acts Dispensationalists.
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Posted: 25 Sep 2009 11:55 AM

VK Private

 

So, Jesus called Israelites to repentance in the sense of changing their walk, changing their actions?

In order that the Kingdom of Heaven can be realized on the earth? (Hypothetically, what would happen if Israel repented in the sense Jesus was calling them?)

And if that's how repentance was used by Jesus, then how do we interpret the Apostles using the same terms in the book of Acts?
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Posted: 25 Sep 2009 12:08 PM

Von McCrea

 

VK:
So, Jesus called Israelites to repentance in the sense of changing their walk, changing their actions?

Uh, yes.

VK:
In order that the Kingdom of Heaven can be realized on the earth?

Uh, yes.

VK:
(Hypothetically, what would happen if Israel repented in the sense Jesus was calling them?)

Uh, the Kingdom of Heaven would have been realized on the earth. But God knew the Israelites wouldn’t accept Christ as their Messiah, so He had nothing to lose by making the offer.

VK:
And if that's how repentance was used by Jesus, then how do we interpret the Apostles using the same terms in the book of Acts?

Uh, the same way. There ought to be Free Grace dispensationalists who can answer these questions as good or better than I can, but where are they when you need them?
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Posted: 25 Sep 2009 12:35 PM

Vlad (Chicago-IL)

 

So, what is the GOSPEL then?

Mar. 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Am I to interpret Jesus as saying that men should repent in order to bring Kingdom of God on the earth..? But what would the Gospel people were called to believe?

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

If repentance here means that one should turn from their sins, then Calvinists and LS are ultimately right in their definition of 'faith alone'.
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Posted: 25 Sep 2009 10:36 PM

Trent H

 

Von, Isreal as a nation did volunteer to enter in, and there was a set policy for those who wanted to become part of that covenant. No where did I hint that you could get back out... of course you could just stop, however you may not like the consequences.. The Jews over and over again did that whenever they left worshipping Yahweh. Maybe not convincing, however they are arguing from Silence again. Where does it state that only a Jew can be justified by Faith? Rahab was a non Jew.
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Posted: 26 Sep 2009 11:40 AM

Trent H

 

VK, the gospel is good news. It is an adjective. It can describe many different things depending on context. Thats why when you try to make it a noun, the NT gets confusing. "My wife just had a healthy baby boy", thats Gospel. I think I did a post on this on my blog.

The Gospel depends on context. But if your question is "what do I have to do to have eternal life, then we can go to jn 3:16, Acts 16:31, etc. And that is Gospel!
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Posted: 26 Sep 2009 11:43 AM

Vlad (Chicago-IL)

 

Hi Trent, but if "gospel" can be anything, then what did Paul mean by some preaching 'another gospel' in Galatians 1?
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Posted: 26 Sep 2009 07:08 PM

Trent H

 

Determined by context. What is the good news that was being corrupted? In that case based on the books topic, I think he was dealing with the gospel of grace. Thats why he specifies the gospel preached by him. Then to further clarify when he recieved this gospel and that it is the gospel that he preached among the gentiles. Its contrasted with the gospel given to Peter for the circumcised. It was in conflict with what Peter was pushing.

For different Gospels, you have Mark 1:1 where the good news is the story of Jesus Christ.

Matt 24:14 the Gospel of the kingdom

Matt 26:13 is another

Other times, the gospel is a information that may include the death, ressurection and other truths about Christ. The confusion comes when we pigeon hole it based on "Christian" Traditions where we think it is only one thing.. we (as Christians) do the same thing with the word salvation and assume it means eternal life with out looking at context.

Grace and Truth
Trent

Please visit my blog at
http://sola-scriptura-truth.blogspot.com
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Posted: 27 Sep 2009 12:19 PM

Von McCrea

 

Here’s some links, VK.

http://bible.org/article/what-gospel

http://www.salembible.org/biblestudies/gospelofkingdom.htm

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/ponepone.htm

Trent, did Rahab have to be saved in order to help the Israelites? If Rahab did become saved, didn’t she also become an Israelite?

I'm retired from Christianity and it feels great!
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Posted: 27 Sep 2009 05:03 PM

Trent H

 

Rahab was "physically" saved when she helped the Isrealites. She gained eternal life when she believed and was justified. Which came first? Who knows. Of course we know that both took place, but otherwise, one could have happened with out the other. Did she eventually convert to Judaism as well? I don't know or remember if it says. However converting to Judaism is full of "works"

Grace and Truth
Trent

Please visit my blog at
http://sola-scriptura-truth.blogspot.com
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Posted: 28 Sep 2009 11:15 AM

Von McCrea

 

Tell that to a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist and I reckon he'll dispute it.
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Posted: 28 Sep 2009 01:19 PM