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September 8, 2008 What I Actually Said in a Q &A at 2007 ETS
Topic Started: Dec 26 2008, 05:48 PM (150 Views)
lightninboy

What I Actually Said in a Q &A at 2007 ETS

Posted by: Bob_Wilkin

A new book makes an inaccurate claim about my answer to a series of questions at the 2007 meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society (ETS). I presented a workshop in San Diego on the need for our evangelism to be exegetically sound. I digitally recorded that session, including the question and answer time, that day and it has been available for free download at the GES website ever since. Here is what has been reported that I said: One proponent of this view stated that it is possible for a person to get saved in the present age by believing in Jesus, then die and go to heaven, whereupon he is surprised learn that the Jesus who saved him also died and rose again for his sins. (Bob Wilkin, Question & Answer time during Wilkin’s presentation at the 2007 Meeting of the Evangelical Theological Society in San Diego, CA, entitled, “Our Evangelism Should Be Exegetically Sound,” November 15, 2007.)[1] What follows is a complete transcript of the questions I was asked and the actual answers I gave. See if you can find anywhere where I suggest that a person might be surprised when he gets to heaven to learn that Jesus died on the cross for his sins and rose from the dead. Q: Thank you, Bob, outstanding, man. I really appreciate your message. Probably no one’s had a greater impact on my life the last twenty years theologically than you and I always appreciate your thoughts. In light of the topic here, evangelism, um, one of the key issues I think in the evangelism enterprise is, um, what precisely a person must believe about Jesus to have eternal life. Bob: Right. Q: We all agree you have to believe in Jesus to have eternal life. My question is what specifically about Him must we believe to have eternal life, and I wonder if you can answer that question particularly as it relates to the death and resurrection of Christ. Bob: Well in terms of what we must believe about Jesus, John 20:30-31 makes it real clear. We must believe [that] He is the Christ, the Son of God. John 11:25-27 makes it very clear. First John 5:1 [says], “Anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.” What does that mean? That’s explained and unpacked in John 11:25-26. Where does the death and resurrection of Jesus come in? Well, actually the Lord Jesus in John 11 doesn’t explain His death and resurrection, nor does He explain it in John 3, for example, although He does allude to it when He talks about the serpent being lifted up. So my view would be those things explain why it is He fulfills the promise. They’re the eighth sign in the Gospel of John; the greatest sign. But if you’re asking the question, Is that specifically what a person must believe? [the answer is] No. There are lots of people who believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins and rose from the dead and who don’t believe that simply by faith in Jesus they have everlasting life. Q: Sure, but is it possible for someone to have eternal life who has no explicit knowledge whatsoever… Bob: Well, is the opposite possible? I’d say the apostle Peter is a good example. The apostle Peter believed in Jesus for eternal life and in Matthew 16 Jesus praises him, “Blessed are you Simon bar Jonah for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father has revealed it to you.” And his statement was, “You are the Christ, the Son of God.” The same statement [as in John 11:27; 20:31; 1 John 5:1]. Q: Today is it possible? Bob: Well the apostle Peter isn’t living today, but if it was possible for the apostle Peter, it’s certainly possible today.[3] But if you ask me have I ever met such a person? [the answer is] No. I don’t know of anyone who has not believed that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and rose from the dead who has everlasting life.[4] But the problem is many people make that the object of saving faith. The Lord Jesus never did. Why do we make that the object of saving faith? The object of saving faith is Jesus and His promise of life. I have written a 20+ page article-length review of the book which makes this charge. The review will appear in our Spring 2008 Journal, which should go to the printer within the week and should be mailed out in late October. (We hope to have a quick turn around on the Fall 2008 and get it printed and mailed by the end of December so that we can get back on schedule.) While I do not recommend the book, it is fascinating to read a person—one who calls himself Free Grace—deny that those who simply believe in the Lord Jesus Christ have everlasting life. And it is fascinating to see him state that we cannot find out what the content of saving faith is in any single passage in the New Testament, but that we must come up with what he calls a “synthesis” of various passages. Exactly how he determined which passages should be included was not clear. I guess we are now dealing with a synthetic gospel. ——————————————————————————– [1] Page 154, n. 19. [2] Begins at 34:58 in the message. [3] Though I didn’t say it that day, obviously Peter did come to believe in the cross and resurrection before he died. But he was born again before he believed that. In my view if there have been any people in the church age who came to faith in Christ for eternal life and didn’t believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins and rose again, something I consider highly unlikely, it is almost certain they would have, like Peter, come to learn of that and believe that soon after they were born again and long before they died. My point is that a person can believe that Jesus died on the cross for his sins and rose from the dead and not believe in Him for eternal life and hence remain unregenerate. [4] This statement occurs at the 37:17 mark in the message
No I will not, No I will not
Not go quietly
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lightninboy

Comments:

1. Diane
Dear Friends,
John was written to tell us HOW to have eternal life (John 20:31). No place are we told in John (or anyplace else) that the requirements to be believed have changed. And notice that… JOHN WAS WRITTEN LONG AFTER the cross and resurrection. If we make His WORK a REQUIREMENT to be believed in order to be saved……… then we’ve MADE THE GOSPEL OF JOHN UNUSABLE FOR IT’S INTENDED PURPOSE!!!!!
IS THAT A BIG DEAL OR NOT?
For me….. THAT’S A BIG DEAL!!!!! Maybe we never thought about it this way before, but it’s a BIG DEAL when we change the purpose for which God intended in His inspired writings.

Appreciate you, Bob, so much and all of my friends at GES.
September 10th, 2008 at 10:02 am


2. Diane
One other thought…
Rather than say……. “We can have eternal life by believing in the WORK and PERSON of Jesus Christ”….
why not say it biblically…… “Jesus Christ gives eternal life as a gift to all who will believe in Him, and He can do this BECAUSE He died on the cross to pay for our sins and He rose from the grave.”
AMEN! Praise God!!!
September 10th, 2008 at 10:04 am


3. Mike Smith
Dr. Wilkin you asked, “See if you can find anywhere where I suggest that a person might be surprised when he gets to heaven to learn that Jesus died on the cross for his sins and rose from the dead.”

I may be missing it, but whoever was asking you the question and then the questions that follow the original question was trying to get your answer, to this: “Is it possible for someone to have eternal life who has no explicit knowledge whatsover of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?”

I took your answer to be, “yes,” by your statement, “..it’s certainly possible today.”

If your answer is “yes,” wouldn’t it be possible for “this person” to be surprised when he gets to heaven to learn that Jesus died on the cross for his sins and rose from the dead?

What I find fascinating is your statement, “Where does the death and resurrection of Jesus come in? Well, actually the Lord Jesus in John 11 doesn’t explain His death and resurrection, nor does He explain it in John 3, for example, although He does allude to it when He talks about the serpent being lifted up. So my view would be those things explain why it is He fulfills the promise.”

Am I correct to understand you think Jesus only “alluded” to his death and resurrection in John 3:14-15?

The Apostle John just casually sliped-in the O.T. story of when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness?

Dr. Radmacher’s Study Bible says, “Every time the words “lifted up” occur in the Gospel of John there is a reference to Jesus’ death (8:28;12:32,34. When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness (see Num. 21:9), those who looked at it lived. So it is with the Son on Man (1:51).”

In your newsletter article, “Easter Myth or Gospel Truth?” (March-April 1998)? Your last point in the article was, “Don’t Uncouple the Resurrection from the Gospel.” Do you [now] uncouple the death and resurrection of Christ from His guarantee of eternal life and the forgiveness of sins to all who believe in Him for it?

Thanks,

Mike

Commentator Note: The article in question can be found here http ://faithalone.org/news/y1998/98mar1.html
September 10th, 2008 at 2:50 pm


4. Bob_Wilkin
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your comments.
Yes, the death of Christ is alluded to in John 3:14-15. However, it is highly unlikely that Nicodemus or the disciples understood this. After all, look at Matt 16:21-22. After the Lord Jesus told Peter and the other disciples explicitly that he was going to be killed in Jerusalem, Peter said, “this shall not happen to You!” (See also my comments below on John 2:19 and 2:22.)
A better question is this: would John’s unbelieving Jewish readers have understood John 3:14-15 as a reference to Calvary. The answer would be a resounding Yes. Surely after the Cross any astute reader would get it. But before the Cross it is unlikely that anyone got such a reference. But you are of course correct that the apostle John knew when he wrote that these words by Jesus were prophetic about Calvary and he included them for that reason.
Yes, I did suggest at ETS 2007 in that Q & A that it is possible, not probable, that a person today could believe in Jesus for eternal life and yet not have any explicit knowledge of His death and resurrection at that time. But that is not what the author suggested I said. He said that I said it is possible a person would die and get to heaven and then learn of the cross and resurrection. He didn’t ask me about that nor did I answer that. As I say in this post, even if a person somehow came to faith in Jesus for eternal life without ever having heard about the Cross and empty tomb–a highly unlikely possibility–then once he came to faith he would surely learn of that and believe in the Cross and resurrection.
No, I do not uncouple the resurrection from the guarantee of eternal life. I teach, as Diane comments above, that the Cross and empty tomb explain why Jesus indeeds fulfills His promise of eternal life to all who simply believe in Him. Remember that in John’s Gospel the death and resurrection of Jesus are the eighth sign (John 2:18-22). Now it is interesting that John tells us that though Jesus was alluding to His death and resurrection there, it wasn’t until He had risen from the dead that “His disciples remembered that He said this and they believed the Scripture and word which Jesus had said” (John 2:22). The fact that the death resurrection of Jesus is the greatest sign designed to lead unbelievers to faith in Jesus is different than saying that the object of saving faith is the cross and resurrection. The Lord Jesus is the object of our faith, as He Himself made crystal clear.
September 11th, 2008 at 11:04 am


5. Diane
Dear Friends,

I wanted to try and make this very important point. I believed at the moment I was saved that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins, and that He rose from the dead. I ALSO believed in Jesus for His free gift of everlasting life. At that moment I was eternally saved. Not because I believed the truth of His death and resurrection, but because I believed in Him for His free gift of everlasting life. Why make that distinction?
Here’s WHY it is important to make that distinction…..
Because JOHN was written to tell us how to have eternal life as a gift.
For me, I never doubted my salvation BECAUSE of the promise of John 3:16. BUT, if we must include HOW He saved us as a requirement to be believed in order to be saved, John 3:16 NO LONGER IS ENOUGH for that assurance. We can’t use it. It becomes ONLY a history book. I’ve had friends tell me that I can’t use that verse ALONE anymore for assurance because it doesn’t give enough information. How horrible is that!!!
Now I must look elsewhere for my assurance. But where do I go? What verse is enough? I hope you all can see the problem here.

I praise God always for His death on the cross for me!!! He’s alive, and I rejoice that He saved a sinner like me. I’m saved and know it because of His promise….. John 3:16.
:D
September 11th, 2008 at 8:58 pm


6. Mike Smith
Dr. Wilkin, Thanks for your answers.

I am still trying to understand why believing that Jesus is God is not a part of believing in Christ for eternal life. The Apostle John put the information in the first chapter. It seems that he wanted the readers to connect that foundational truth with believing on Him for eternal life. John 20:31 seems to say the same thing. The Apostle said, “…Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…” Isn’t that a clear reference of the Deity of Christ?

Diane,
How long have you been a believer?

Thanks,
Mike
September 16th, 2008 at 9:52 am


7. Diane
Hi Mike,

I’ve been a believer for over 45 years now. I was a teenager when that glorious light was turned on for me. Now you know how old I am!!! OLD!
:D

BTW…. Zane Hodges answers a question regarding the LOGOS in John 1 in a message he brought at the 2008 GES Conference. It was during the Q & A time at the end of his 2nd message…
“Miraculous Signs and Literary Structure in the 4th Gospel”

He said regarding LOGOS in John 1:1-14… John is making a point of contact with the people he wants to evangelize. John is talking to a literate audience in Ephesus. This word (Logos) is used nowhere else in the New Testament. Logos was a key word in philosophy of their day. John would be saying… “The Logos you have heard about in these philosophical discussions is the person I’m talking to you about.”
Zane went into a lot of the history of the kind of people John would have been talking to.

His message was very helpful to me.

A friend in Christ,
Diane
September 25th, 2008 at 3:02 pm


8. Mike Smith
Diane & Dr. Wilkin,

Diane, you are the “first lady” of demonstrating grace. I wish all of us would be more gracious and Christlike in this debate. The blogs are becoming like soap opera instead of iron sharpening iron.

I do not question the fact that you have eternal life. I don’t question the fact that you are growing in Christ.

You said, “I believed at the moment I was saved that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins, and that He rose from the dead. I ALSO believed in Jesus for His free gift of everlasting life. At that moment I was eternally saved. Not because I believed the truth of His death and resurrection, but because I believed in Him for His free gift of everlasting life.”

I question this statement, “…Not because I believed the truth of His death and resurrection, but because I believed in Him for His free gift of everlasting life.”

I do not question your salvation. I know you believe your statement today, but (my point in bringing it up) no one in 1963 separated the work of Christ from His offer to believe in Him for eternal life. That is what it meant to believe in Christ for eternal life. It’s has only been in the last few years that GES has taken “the work of Christ” out of the equation of what it means to believe in Christ for eternal life.

This is the main issue in this debate.

This is my testimony of believing in Christ for eternal life: I know I have eternal life because I believe in Christ. For me believing in Christ included who He was (God), and what He did (the work of Christ). The moment I believed, I had the gift of eternal life. The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. I did not separate the work of Christ from His offer to believe in Him for it!

A question for you and Dr. Wilkin is, Do you question the fact of my eternal salvation?

Mike
October 1st, 2008 at 12:15 pm


9. cargilju
Greetings. Just trying to clarify this. You write:

“Yes, I did suggest at ETS 2007 in that Q & A that it is possible, not probable, that a person today could believe in Jesus for eternal life and yet not have any explicit knowledge of His death and resurrection at that time. But that is not what the author suggested I said. He said that I said it is possible a person would die and get to heaven and then learn of the cross and resurrection….even if a person somehow came to faith in Jesus for eternal life without ever having heard about the Cross and empty tomb–a highly unlikely possibility–then once he came to faith he would surely learn of that and believe in the Cross and resurrection….f there have been any people in the church age who came to faith in Christ for eternal life and didn’t believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins and rose again, something I consider highly unlikely, it is almost certain they would have, like Peter, come to learn of that and believe that soon after they were born again and long before they died.”

You are saying:
1) it is possible but not probable for a person to be saved (ie believe Jesus for eternal life) and not know about his death and resurrection at the moment they are saved.
2) it is “almost certain” that such a person will surely learn of the death and resurrection once he has believed that Jesus grants eternal life.

But when would that person learn of the death and resurrection? You suggest “soon after they were born again.” Are you thinking that in the one witnessing encounter they would believe Jesus’ offer of eternal life (and so be saved) and then in that same encounter they would hear of Jesus’ death and resurrection and would inevitably believe that too? Fair enough. But it is theoretically possible (though unlikely) that after they hear and believe that Jesus gives eternal life they don’t hear of his death and resurrection. This is something they’d believe if they did hear it but they didn’t hear it then. Say then that they are killed a couple of days later. If so then we do have an instance of a person going to heaven who doesn’t know about Jesus’ death and resurrection. Isn’t this at least theoretically possible even if highly unlikely? If so then the observation made by the critic re your comments is correct. Or am I missing something?

Thanks
Justin
October 27th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
No I will not, No I will not
Not go quietly
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