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| Religion; Who's right and who's wrong? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 28 2008, 03:13 AM (271 Views) | |
| Szekely | May 28 2008, 03:13 AM Post #1 |
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Reading the other thread, "ok go", I've been coming across some religious talking and thought I'd start this thread about it. So, I'll star it off with this question. Should Mormons be considered Christian? If yes, why yes. If no, why not? I really have no opinion on this, but am willing to be persuaded to either side. Also, feel free to branch off into other debates over religion, this is just the catchall thread. |
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| Goda | May 28 2008, 03:34 AM Post #2 |
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These are some excellent examples of counter-arguments to some reasons for claiming Mormon's are not Christians. http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html |
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| jesusfreak574 | May 30 2008, 03:00 AM Post #3 |
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First, I want to make it clear that I do not enjoy bashing Mormons, or anything of that sort. The question was asked, an argument was raised, and I will respond. I personally do not specifically object to continuing revelation. If God really did continue to hand texts to us, then so be it. I think it would be foolish, and would suggest that God forgot something the first time around, but I'm not God. (Since Christ's resurrection and the years directly following, no new developments have occurred. We're still waiting for his return. Why would we suddenly get new Scripture?) That was in response to the second link. The first I consider more interesting because it touches on my objection to Mormons being considered Christian. I do not consider Mormons to be Christian because their God is different. The Christian God is one and eternal. It is my understanding that the Mormon God is united only in purpose, and that their Jesus Christ was created or not eternal. Elaboration: much can be said about the Trinity. It is entirely true that the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. Trinity is a label that is applied to the three Persons of God that constitute the one God. It is terribly confusing, and someday all Christians hope to understand it fully (ie when we're dead), but it is Biblical. In the Bible, it is clear that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all God. It is also clear that God is singular. If the Bible is correct, then God is three persons in one God. Interesting. I believe that Mormons deny the confusing bit where God is one Being despite being three Persons. They believe in three Persons that are united in purpose, but not in being. Unfortunately, by definition, that is polytheistic, which at a basic level is not compatible with Christianity. Also, if I am not mistaken, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ did not exist for eternity like God the Father. He was created on the same level as the other angels, if I understand their theology correctly. This is fundamentally different from Christianity, which holds that Jesus Christ is infinitely greater than the angels, being a Person of eternal God. Furthermore, the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression, which as I understand it states that God was once like man, and that man can become like God, is completely incompatible with Christian theology. Christians believe that humans and God are on completely different planes, and the only similarities are those that God crafted into us. We have no hope of becoming God. I firmly hold that Mormons are not Christians because they do not worship and believe in the same God as Christians. |
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| d0nk3y | Jun 1 2008, 07:30 PM Post #4 |
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current status: lurking more
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this is not my place to argue, and I hate to resort to ad hominem attacks, but wasn't Joseph Smith an illiterate man with a criminal record of being a con artist? I know that doesn't mean he is exempt from being "visited"... and didn't he claim that he was the only one who could read the magic plates and he had to dictate them to a neighbor through some bed sheets in his kitchen...? Completely irrelevant, if I made up a religion and said Jesus was completely different, god didn't care, etc. would that be Christian? :p I'd say no... but if you want to talk about a crappy religion, look at scientology
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| Goda | Jun 3 2008, 04:25 AM Post #5 |
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Who concretely defines Christianity? Isn't Christianity the same as Judaism, but with the Messiah already arrived? And the same as Islam, but without Muhammad? Different views of scriptures, and which prophets are true, does not change the fact that we are all worshiping the same God. Joseph Smith had a third grade education. Who cares what he did for a few of his teenage years? He admits it himself that he was wandering, and he decided to pray about that, which lead to his second vision. He was a great man from that point on. A man nonetheless, just like you're a man. People expect perfection in others way too often. God commanded that only a select few could see the Gold Plates(they weren't magic...only made of gold, with writing in a different language). They were shown by an angel to Joseph's wife, and 11 other witnesses, whose testimonies are in the front of any Book of Mormon. 11 Testimonies, and not one was denied even by those witnesses who had disagreements with Joseph, or other leaders, and left the Church. Back to Joesph's third grade education. The Book of Mormon contains numerous, changing writing styles. It even has forms of Hebrew poetry(can be found in the Bible as well) that were not discovered until after Joseph's lifetime. Given all this, I find it impossible for anyone, even a genius, to make up the Book of Mormon in those circumstances. Tim, Christ has existed eternally, as have we. But God is helping us advance in our existence. He made us spirits, and then gave us physical bodies. That is putting it really simply. Christ is greater than us, because He is the oldest, and the one chosen to create the world, and to go through with the atonement of our sins. |
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| jesusfreak574 | Jun 7 2008, 04:49 AM Post #6 |
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Okay, I understand what Hebrew poetry is. It is often found in the Psalms, and is usually some form of an acrostic using the Hebrew alphabet. My question is how can a book written in an unknown language and translated to English have Hebrew poetry? The Psalms were written in Hebrew, hence they could have Hebrew poetry. It seems to me that claiming the Book of Mormon has Hebrew poetry is like claiming that I can write French poetry in English (and I don't know French). Second, and probably more important, is this other idea of people existing eternally. I've mentioned differences in the God of Christianity and Mormonism, but this highlights the differences in beliefs about who we are. Christians don't believe they have existed eternally. They think they will spend the rest of eternity somewhere, but not that they already have spent eternity somewhere. If Mormons believe that we have all shared an eternal existence as spirit beings prior to our time on Earth, then this is another incompatibility between Christianity and Mormonism. The God is different and the people are different. One last point. It seems obvious to me that Christianity isn't the same as Judaism or Islam because these religions do not worship the same God. Both Judaism and Islam deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Since the God is not the same, the religion is not the same. The same divide applies to Mormonism. |
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| Goda | Jun 7 2008, 05:22 PM Post #7 |
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Not speaking of the acrostic. I can't remember the name of the form, but it is also in psalms. It has to do with the shaping of the idea, not the words or structure, but the way the idea is presented. That is completely language independent. It was made by the Hebrews, so if its passed down generation to generation, the form can still exist even if the language changes. I didn't say we spent eternity as spirits. I said God created our spirits not long before the world. But we have existed for eternity. You're argument as to what makes the same God breaks Christianity into all of its denominations, each worshiping a different God. Its all the same God, but its different views of scripture and prophets. Jews don't believe in Christ because they believe that the Messiah is going to be a great leader that would make Israel free and great. The thing is, thats totally true, but Christians see it as the Second Coming when that happens. Jews just didn't pick out the two comings of the Messiah. The God is the same. Human interpretations of what the God spoke to prophets is what makes the religions different. |
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| jesusfreak574 | Jun 10 2008, 04:15 AM Post #8 |
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No, this is practically what defines Christianity! God, being one God yet three persons. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, all in one God. Jews don't believe that, Mormons don't believe that, Muslims don't believe that. All Christian denominations do. If they do not, then I will not defend them as Christian. |
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| Goda | Jun 10 2008, 04:22 AM Post #9 |
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Topic Starter
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It seems you won't defend the Twelve Apostles as Christian then... What defines Christianity is the belief in the arrival of the Messiah prophesied of in the Old Testament. I'd also like to comment on the second to last paragraph in your first post. How was God able to make Himself a mortal if He is "on a totally different plane" (not sure what you mean by that). Also, if He was indeed the same being as Jesus Christ, how was He able to do the things that God does, whilst a child? How was He able to be baptized, speak from heaven, and descend like a dove all at the same time? Why does He continually refer to Himself as Father, and as Son? Edited by Goda, Jun 10 2008, 04:28 AM.
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| Szekely | Jun 10 2008, 04:31 AM Post #10 |
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Because he is God... |
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8:55 AM Jul 11