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ok go; let's talk about morals
Topic Started: Apr 29 2008, 02:28 AM (450 Views)
d0nk3y
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current status: lurking more
Well, the first half of the list is comprised mostly of orders... not necessarily specific examples. It is slightly hypocritical to tell someone 'you shall not kill' and then tell them to kill (because they work on a certain day of the week??etc).

I said "plenty" because I did not and will not count the number of people god killed in the bibles. You can just as well google for "murder in the bible". It's not really important.


Why not make us (intrinsically) good?

If death is our punishment for being evil, why is death such a good thing?

Do you consider yourself evil?

Do you consider me evil?



I see the bible as a collection of human-made lessons which were made to the benefit or beliefs of the authors. A large part of it is scare-tactics to encourage participation (and later, donations, too). The rest of it is persuasion based on prejudice, fear, and evolutionary, non-transcendent "morals".
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jesusfreak574

I agree; there were a lot of people killed in the Bible. There were also a lot of children sacrificed to those dead people's gods, Molech, Chemosh, Ba'al, and Astoreth.

We were made intrinsically good. We were created for perfect fellowship with God (the whole Garden of Eden thing). We then chose to disobey and became intrinsically bad. We were created to live forever, in all likelihood, but as a consequence of our wrongdoing against the perfect God, we got death.

I don't think death is a good thing. The majority of people will die and will realize that they were wrong. While living, they had separated themselves from God, and so for eternity He won't force them to be close to Him. That, of course, will be very unpleasant. On the other hand, death is a very good thing if you have repented of your evilness, and believed and trusted in Jesus Christ who paid your punishment for wrongdoing. Then eternity can be spent with God, enjoying His wonders.

I know myself and my desires. They are very evil. I am fully capable of committing the atrocities of the most despotic world leaders. We are all similar in this manner. The Bible is clear that everyone has sinned, or committed wrongdoing against God, and this makes them evil. So, I'm not trying to be cruel, or even single anyone out (because I believe the same about everyone), but yes, I consider you just as evil as myself.
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Goda
Topic Starter
Adam and Eve were made intrinsically ignorant. Therefore intrinsically(we like this word dont we?) innocent. They were told to reproduce and not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They ate the fruit. They then were no longer ignorant, and could not be innocent, so they had to leave God's presence. Then they could have kids and start mankind. We start out ignorant, but when we learn, we choose good or evil. God encourages good, Satan encourages evil. We can't be good all the time, so Christ willing takes our imperfections.

(anyone interested on a debate about "original sin"?)

Why not make us intrinsically good? Well the point of putting us here was so we could learn. If we are all good, we can't make mistakes, and if we can't make mistakes, then how can we learn enough?

I think an interesting relevant piece of my Church's doctrine fits here. Before the creation, we were all living with God. He had a council to discuss what we were to do on Earth when it was made. First the angel who was to become Satan purposed that he make everyone be good, and bring them all back from their mortal life, to God. Then he would get glory. Then Christ purposed the plan that God made. He said that we would all have a choice, and then offer the choice to recieve mercy for mistakes, through Christ. Then all the glory would be God's. This is what caused the war in heaven that resulted in Satan being cast out.

---


The thing is, death doesn't matter a whole lot if its not the actual end. From an omnipotent point of view, it's a small step. God provided the chance for people to repent. If they died without that chance, then they are innocent anyways, because they basically are ignorant of what they are doing wrong.
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jesusfreak574

Goda, you're contradicting yourself. Not that I believe what you wrote (I consider most of it heresy; don't be offended because you think I'm deceived as well), but if people were cast out of God's presence for no longer being ignorant and innocent, how can they not receive the consequences of their actions when they die because they are ignorant and innocent?

And what glory does it bring God for Christ to give mercy to those who believe in him as well as those who spit on him?
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Goda
Topic Starter
Thats not a contradiction. You need to be perfect to be with God. I didn't say that people who are ignorant of what they do wrong are perfect, but they can gain the mercy that they did not know they could recieve, even after they die.

For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Moses 1

I know you don't believe in the source of that scripture. But considering that it would be way off topic to discuss it, I won't further.

Oh and way to be obvious with the heresy thing. Everyone is a heretic to everyone else...thats the way it is.
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jesusfreak574

So, I have been reading some C.S. Lewis recently, and he makes an interesting analogy when speaking about morals.

If we were to consider humankind a fleet of ships, with each man being his own ship, then it is generally agreed that each man should not endanger the ships around him. (It is morally wrong to hurt others.) The question is then, does it matter what happens within the ship itself?

Lewis says the answer depends on whether the ship belongs to the man, or the ship belongs to another and the man is merely taking care of it. Christians believe the latter; most others believe the former. The problem is that both cannot be correct.
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Goda
Topic Starter
could you tell me the source of that?
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jesusfreak574

Absolutely. Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

Book 3 (Christian Behaviour), Chapter 1 (The Three Parts of Morality). I'm pretty sure there are multiple editions, but in mine it's on page 74.
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d0nk3y
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So all I see is that the Christian Church wants us to feel guilty...
is it coincidence that by giving them my money I will feel less guilty?


Since there is no god, and there are no morals, we are not intrinsically good or bad. Death is not good or bad. You are not evil. I am not evil. I'll spare you some time.
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jesusfreak574

The Christian church wants you to understand yourself. You are not perfect, yet you were created to be. That's a problem you shouldn't feel good about.

Giving money just means that you approve of the cause/message. The same applies to donating to charity. I don't give to charities expecting to feel instantly better about myself. I just want their work to continue. You shouldn't feel better about your actions after giving money to church.

How long would your beliefs about no morals last if I drove up to your house, gunned down everyone in your family except you, stole your electronics and refrigerator, and drove away? Would you shrug it off, saying that there is no right and wrong, and neither of us is evil, so it really doesn't matter? Or would you get mad, justifiably, because I had wronged you and your family terribly?

Morals do exist. We see it every day.
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