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ok go; let's talk about morals
Topic Started: Apr 29 2008, 02:28 AM (452 Views)
jesusfreak574

There is a distinction in Hebrew between the words murder and killing. The King James got this wrong in the Ten Commandments, I believe. Killing is killing, that is obvious. But murder is killing without cause, and that is prohibited by God's moral law. What we forget in our culture is that actions bring with them consequences. God never killed those who were not acting evilly. The punishment for evil, which is a great offense against God, is death. I think Adam had it right here. These people (specifically the Canaanites) burned their infants in pagan sacrifices, they had sex with anything that moved, and they were dangerous to everyone alive, basically. They had no intentions of "behaving," and God, who oversaw the beginning of their lives, was justified in ending them as a direct consequence of their actions. Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. That's what they got.

Also, I don't think that animals have souls. Genesis says that God created man in his image. If a soul is part of the image of God, then humans have it but not animals. Also, I think animals exhibit a deep loyalty, but not quite love. Love requires conscious self-sacrifice. It is deeper than loyalty, I think.

Furthermore, any argument which treats homosexuality as a way of increasing reproductive frequency does two things: it defies common sense, and it treats homosexuality as a choice (which most people do not believe), because the homosexual then chooses to reproduce with a female, even though it shouldn't be natural or pleasing for him to do so. It's like saying that I, a straight man, might just choose to sleep with a man for the heck of it. Furthermore, I don't think analogies can be made between eunuchs and homosexuals. They aren't the same functionally or psychologically, unless you believe that homosexuals are just males with missing body parts that cause infertility and low testosterone.
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d0nk3y
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current status: lurking more
I don't really wish to debate the bible (partly because of my "stereotypical" reasons above, partly because I am rather unfamiliar..), but...

What about the people who lived more than 2,000 years ago who (also?) couldn't read the Bible? What about the Native Americans? Or the Chinese?
Adam, you don't get to answer this one because as far as I know, Mormons are the only ones who really attempt to..


Why don't the Ten Commandments include commandments against rape (oh wait..) or incest, or cloning, or pedophilia, or drug use, or abortion?


Quote:
 
In some translations of ancient texts, individuals identified as eunuchs seem to include men who were impotent with women, those we would now call transsexuals and effeminate homosexuals, and those who were simply celibate.


Now, some females are drawn to homosexuals, or they may be accepted into their "group". As a heterosexual (or a solitary person in general) I can only speak for myself, but perhaps there are degrees of homosexuality because I do not think they fear women or are repulsed by them. In the past, the gene may have been less active, or helpful in an unknown way. I wouldn't call it a defiance of common sense (or an implication of choice) but I don't think we know enough to make a valid conclusion (and it doesn't really speed up reproductive frequency..).

I still believe it is possible that the genes may lie dormant (perhaps until they meet with the right other ones), before revealing themselves; and when they do, they may be coupled with beneficial effects...


(in all seriousness, ) Does Christianity have a better explanation?


If you want to read through Dawkin's 1993 letter; here, 3rd question.
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Goda
Topic Starter
just a quick mention. the ten commandments hardly cover all the commandments in the old testament. i don't think they were even the most important.
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jesusfreak574

I still think that we're thinking too much about if homosexuality can aide in reproduction. It may be that the simplest answer is the best.

Another mention about the Ten Commandments. Murder covers abortion, as the fetus is genetically not part of the mother. Adultery covers pedophilia and incest, because the Bible is fairly explicit as to who cannot be married and slept with (Leviticus 18). However, Jesus, when asked what the greatest commandment is, sums up the Commandments by saying "Love your God and love your neighbor" (Matthew 22:36-40). God is not about rules so much as attitudes, I think.

Is the question does Christianity have a better explanation for homosexuality? I'm thinking about that one...
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Goda
Topic Starter
even with Christ's commandments, all those commandments about sexual things still apply...its the attitude of respecting what God wants us to use our power of creation for.

can anyone come up with other reasons for homosexuality besides it being a (sub)concious choice, or genetic? i believe its a choice, but it would easy if it were genetic, because it will be bred out of the species.
Edited by Goda, May 2 2008, 04:10 AM.
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jesusfreak574

i agree with goda on that last one.
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d0nk3y
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Okay, had a little vacation ;)

First, I can't remember quite how homosexuality is relevant to the topic, and (hopefully) the last I will say about it is: simply because it's genetic does not mean it will be 'weeded out'. Hundreds of genetic disorders exist, including: 22q11.2 deletion syndrome, Angelman syndrome, Canavan disease, Celiac disease, Charcot-Marie-Tooth disease, Color blindness, Cri du Chat, Cystic fibrosis, Down syndrome, Duchenne muscular dystrophy, Haemophilia, Klinefelter syndrome, Neurofibromatosis, Phenylketonuria, Prader-Willi syndrome, Sickle-cell disease, Tay-Sachs disease, and Turner syndrome
I'm not saying that it's a disease or anything, but you can't really just dismiss it like that.

However, we still disagree on the existence of morals (though we probably will continue to).

All that's really been made clear is that "the bible tells us all we need to know about morals." What do the following have in common..:
(I put it in quotes so it's easy to scroll past..)
I realize I haven't really read through the bible, and thus I did not find these examples myself.. It's not the point

Quote:
 
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Kill Witches

Kill Homosexuals

Kill Fortunetellers (but not priests?)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

Death for Cursing Parents

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Kill Nonbelievers

Kill False Prophets

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

Kill Followers of Other Religions (again, I guess god wanted that clear)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath


"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)"


"And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)"

"Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)"

"The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)"

Kill Sons of Sinners

God Will Kill Plenty of Children..

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt..

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Sampson's Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.)

Peter Kills Two People

Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)


You Have to Kill?
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)


And there are PLENTY of other massacres left out, committed by "God" or by his command...

The above merely lists murder in the bible.. when it's acceptable, etc. There is plenty of other "immorality" in the bible.

However, you will most likely refute this all by saying some were justified, the rest were lies. I hope that somehow you won't, but then it would be hard to disagree when I say the bible is not the place to collect your moral values.

And one further, for most of the history of humans, the bible has not been available, geographically or chronologically. While most civilizations had very similar moral views, they did not have the same religion or scripture. The Greeks had a pretty nice civilization going on before Jesus came around to say hi.


I'm sure that's not all I have to say, but that's it for now..
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calvinist

yeah, thanks for that there donkey. You did my dirty work. Thats not very nice of God. Which is usually what makes people question the Bible. Why would an all-loving, father-like figure do something like that and then be totally hypocritical and tell us not to? I think thats where the scare tactic of...."you're gonna go to hell for that" comes into play. Don't go against God because he'll condemn you for eternity. Again, that ain't cool. What a hypocrite. If I wrote the Bible, I would definitely leave those verses out. I don't care what the BIG MAN would do.
Edited by calvinist, May 11 2008, 09:47 PM.
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jesusfreak574

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to call lies, but they're lies!!! There, I feel better. Anyway, some were justified, sure. I think another distinction to make is that the Bible also serves an important role as relating history. Just because it reports occurrences doesn't mean that God approves of them. Then another little point: PLENTY is a pretty vague term, especially coming from an individual who has admitted that he hasn't read the entirety of what he's talking about.

I think this is where the biggest disagreement about killing in the Bible comes in. I believe that humans are basically evil, and since God has declared in the Bible that the appropriate punishment for evil is death, it doesn't strike me as terribly hypocritical of God to kill people. When he allows us to live, it is on borrowed time. Death is justified.

I have never met anyone who doesn't believe in the Bible who also believes that people are evil like I do (not saying they don't exist, but I haven't found one). From this point of view, killing people is basically always bad. I agree that it's tragic, because I looks at things as a fellow human, but I think that I deserve death. I'm not ridden with guilt, but instead so very thankful to God because He has not given me what I deserve.

One last thing then. An loving father (not sure if I'd say all loving. He certainly doesn't love everything; everybody, yes), if he is a good father, still must be a fair and just father. It is just to punish for wrongdoing. When my dad used to spank me, it wasn't because he stopped loving me temporarily.
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Goda
Topic Starter
i like that last line a lot tim...also its quite possible i liked other parts, but ive clearly forgotten what you said and dont feel like reading it again
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