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'Weimar' Germany
Topic Started: Oct 3 2014, 01:13 PM (298 Views)
Simon Darkshade
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Nefarious Swashbuckler
Challenge: With a PoD of the signing of the Treaty of Versailles, outline a path forward for Germany that doesn't go down political extremism of the left or right, doesn't seek territorial aggrandizement in the East and doesn't accelerate the process of rearmament beyond that which can be tolerated.

Would such a state be a viable long term Great Power?
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Jacapo
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Whatever POD you choose might have to also significantly change USSR or butterfly it away. I think you could get Germany to great power status again, but it would take a while, maybe til 1950s.
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Lelouch

A Strong Democratic Poland that actually beat the Soviets in Ukraine, and could have marched to Moscow.

or

Alternatively, a stronger American Stance on the further exploitation of Germany by the Victorious French & British. The Treaty of Versailles was only the first step in the complete humiliation & destruction of the German Economy. If America had stepped in, and actually stuck to its guns, the entire fiasco could have been avoided.
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Matthew
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An Imperial Germany surviving the war would certainly remove the whole Weimar thing, but its hard to see the 2.5m French and British dead not having any weight at all in deciding if that was going to happen.
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Simon Darkshade
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Lelouch
Oct 8 2014, 03:24 AM
The Treaty of Versailles was only the first step in the complete humiliation & destruction of the German Economy.

If America had stepped in, and actually stuck to its guns, the entire fiasco could have been avoided.
1.) No, that came from German choices not to pay reparations in the early 1920s.

2.) Good luck.
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Chuck
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I personally feel that the Weimar government wouldn't survive regardless. But say that the Beer Hall Putsch failed as historically and Hitler was executed for leading the rebellion, the a Nazi rise to power would be much less likely. Honestly from that point, I'd say that they would realistically go communist. But going down your path of would Germany become a great power without going fascist or commie, then they would have eventually become a respected power again, but not for a very long time. Their industry, technology and infrastructure would be nowhere near where it is today. Nazi Germany was both a good and horrible thing for Germany. I will not defend Nazism, but Nazi Germany continues to benefit Germany today, as well as destroying it in the early '40s.
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Simon Darkshade
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I'd be interested to see you expand on those points, given that my studies of the period and the German economy tend to point at the opposite, particularly given the level of destruction in the final years of the war and the division of Germany for 45 years.

Infrastructure-wise, autobahns are not a solely Nazi idea or development; they didn't do much for ports and railways and airports would grow in time in any case.

Technologically, German advances in WW2 were in spite of the leadership and government, not due to it.
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Basil Fawlty
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Post Tenebras Lux
That's Simon's English gentlemanly way of saying he thinks it's a crock of beans. ;)
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Jacapo
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East germany is also incredibly stunted to this day compared to west germany. Modern germany is more of an exercise in just how good a western state can be when you dont have to spend much on military/are subsidized by America and only have to focus on building your economy. Japan for instance is an eastern state that also benefited from that unique circumstance. I doubt anyone would say Tojo and the fascists were directly responsible for the booms that came 20-30 years after them. (In a good way, they were clearly responsible for the war and being defeated which led to the american management)

The Autobahn was also a relative failure, but people think it was some great success because of what the post war west german government made it into.

The nazis did a lot of flashy things for propaganda purposes, but their economy was hurting badly. Many economists thing they were forced into war to keep getting cheap resources and labor to support themselves or they would have faced collapse in short order.
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