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Topic Started: Apr 30 2011, 05:42 PM (680 Views)
Basil Fawlty
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Post Tenebras Lux
A discussion of all kinds of historical superlatives, both good and bad.

To start off: Who are some historical figures that you consider the most underrated or least known, given their impact or talents? James Polk strikes me as one of the top examples in U.S. history -- he is probably the most successful one-term president ever, yet is all but forgotten in popular culture.
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JBK
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Tamerlane, Ghengis Kahn?
Konstantin Rokossovskiy (don't know much about his politics, but he sounds a bit of a barbarian to me), without a doubt a more able commander than Patton, but not know nearly as well. Same with Koniev.
Edited by JBK, May 3 2011, 05:45 PM.
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Basil Fawlty
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New topic.

A recent article on the Pacific War suggested Winston Churchill was "arguably the greatest man of the 20th Century." While rankings are always somewhat arbitrary, it would be interesting to explore this for the 19th Century, where there were quite a few capable statesman, industrialists, inventors, and other significant figures.

Who was the greatest man of the 19th Century?
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Doctor_Strangelove
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Edited by Doctor_Strangelove, Nov 11 2016, 07:56 AM.
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Basil Fawlty
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Influence is certainly one category. I think there also has to be a transformative aspect to whatever the individual did, as well as a positive moral dimension. Hitler may have been the most influential man in the 20th century, but I doubt anyone would argue he was the greatest.
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Simon Darkshade
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Nefarious Swashbuckler
Possibly Napoleon. His influence was not all malign, although did have many bad aspects, and the consequences of his actions were profound.
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Matthew
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I would be tempted to say Lenin was more influential than Hitler in the 20th Century in the long run (even if not starting an actual world war) though thats up for debate I suppose.

I would have to agree with Simon that Napoleon is probably the greatest, there, in terms of influence, in the 19th century.
As for the definition, I think greatness was not generally considered goodness, per se, though as EQ said, it depends on who you go by. For great and good individuals, 'big' men if you will, Lincoln would be up there. Bismarck might fit under the former category (I don't know much about his personality though, so I cannot comment on his 'good'-ness). Metternich certainly had a profound influence on the course of events through the 19th century, good, and at times bad, though from what I was reading a lot of the latter was just trying to make the best of a frustrating situation.

Not very many other individuals were able to have such an influence as Napoleon and those three, in the era, but there was a lot of slightly lesser personalities. William Pitt, Disraeli and Gladstone, Franz Joseph, Garibaldi and Cavour, Napoleon III, TR, and so on.
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JBK
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Somehow I do not quite think that Napoleon could be called the 'greatest man of the 19th century'. He was undoubtedly influential, but the main thing for which he is rightly remembered is a 15 year long destruction of Europe. This bringing of death on a huge scale, for often no reason makes it impossible to call him great. The same goes for Bismarck, who unwillingly paved the way for the greatest destruction the world has ever seen.

For that reason I would like to choose either Churchill, who was undoubtedly a great man or Franklin D. Roosevelt. I do not know allot about the man, but he dragged the USA out of the depression and had his fair share in saving the free world from totalitarianism.
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Simon Darkshade
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Neither of those chaps are applicable to the 19th century.
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Basil Fawlty
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Churchill vaguely could be, I suppose, but his greatest achievements were clearly made in the 20th C.

It is reminiscent of a problem I have with Napoleon: namely, he is more of an 18th century man, outside of the mainstream of Victorian culture, and I have trouble perceiving him as the greatest 19th century figure. Admittedly, this is in no small part due to his actions being the catalyst for the 19th century we know.

Bismarck probably has the best claim. His unification of Germany may have led to bloody wars, but it was not something he desired and he managed to avoid it during his generation.
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Doctor_Strangelove
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Edited by Doctor_Strangelove, Nov 11 2016, 07:56 AM.
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Basil Fawlty
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And with that, Kaiser Equuleus solves the entire debate. :P
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Simon Darkshade
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I do see the point on Boney being more of an 18th century fellow in terms of manipulating politics for personal power, but his influence in law, empires, countries, war and many other areas is greater than Bismarck and several others combined, as combined statesman, general and law maker. He was definitely not among the good and great, regardless of what his apologists contend. However, the majority of the 19th century in Europe was shaped by what Napoleon did and the forces he unleashed.

The 19th century produced many great men, but few that could claim the label of Great Man.
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JBK
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Simon Darkshade
Jun 20 2011, 10:56 PM
Neither of those chaps are applicable to the 19th century.
Obviously, got mixed up there.
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Basil Fawlty
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Who, in your opinion, was the greatest composer of all time?
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Simon Darkshade
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Mozart by a whisker from Beethoven. Wagner is right up there, but I've gone off him a little over the past few years.
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Basil Fawlty
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I don't know. Somebody said it best: one deaf man was more talented than all the musicians of today.
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JBK
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Gosh, up there they are all great. There are all the great ones like Beethoven, Bach, Mozart. I personally think that Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and Mussorgsky are great as well. My dad, who is a musician says that Shostakovich is right up there with the other big ones and will soon be recognised as being on par with them.
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Basil Fawlty
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Post Tenebras Lux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1500_Monster

An example of extreme Nazi lunacy.
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Petar
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The General
Basil Fawlty
Jul 19 2014, 02:34 AM
Among others, such as the Maus, the Ratte, and others.
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Delta Force

What about the H class battleship proposals and the Breitspurbahn broad gauge railway?
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Simon Darkshade
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H-39 was alright, if oversize and not economical. Beyond that, it got very silly; still, it kept the designers away from the Eastern Front.

The railway...much as I like large trains and high speed rail, it is an idea in search of a role.
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