Marcus Absent

Jul 30 2012, 04:16 AM

The true threat is finding pre-islamic 'proto qurans' like some german archeologists found under an ancient yemeni site

GenoMann

Jul 30 2012, 01:57 PM

Marcus Absent

Jul 30 2012, 04:16 AM

The true threat is finding pre-islamic 'proto qurans' like some german archeologists found under an ancient yemeni site

What would explain the quiblas that face Jerusalem.

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GenoMann
That is why the Saudi government does not permit archeologists to go digging

GenoMann

Aug 1 2012, 03:21 PM

I think that the archaological evidence, the strange behavoir of Uthman in dealing with the manuscripts, and the nature of the language used indicate that the practices of Mohammed were not successfully passed down to later generations.

That is why the Saudi government does not permit archeologists to go digging. That is why Uthman burned the original recordings, and that is why Muslims try to pretend that Judaism and Christianity were re-written to exclude Islamic truths.

The account of the non-supernatural history of Islam requires an acceptance of a conspiracy theory. That is why apostacy must carry the penalty of death. If the punishment were any less Islam could not stand. You don't need armed guards to keep people in paradise.

Conspiracy and projection.

P.Beverly

Aug 1 2012, 03:27 PM

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GenoMann
That is why the Saudi government does not permit archeologists to go digging

yes thy allowed archeologists to go digging the findings are published .

and GenoMann you can hypothesis as mush as you like the facts is what is important

Bulletproofpride

Aug 2 2012, 05:00 AM

I have answered all the 3 points you made but it seems you can't handle it.
You keep reposting weak questions but in diffrent wordings.

Marcus Absent

Aug 3 2012, 04:38 AM

genomann is trying to pull the 'hagarites/hagarism' card...

Geno, it's been debunked, read up on it.

These kinds of theories is what happens when Western scholars try to ignore NATIVE Muslim scholarship...as if muslims are some kind of red indians or something, with no historical ethos of their own.

History is propaganda... You cannot invent a history for a people who have their own.

Bulletproofpride

Aug 3 2012, 04:22 AM

Oh, sorry but now you are a bit clearer because your previous question was mosque built at the time of the Prophet (PBUH) and not after as you have stated it now.

Ok I will answer it:

Some people made claims that archaeological evidence points to mosques that are not aligned towards Makkah. Now what does this prove?

In the first two centuries of Islâm, when mosques were being built from Andalusia to Central Asia, the Muslims had no truly scientific means of finding the Qibla. Clearly they knew roughly the direction they had taken to reach wherever they were, and the direction of the road in which pilgrims left for Mecca could be, and in some cases actually was, used as a Qibla. But they also followed two basic procedures, observing tradition and developing a simple expedient.
In the first case, some authorities observed the Prophet Mohammed had prayed due south when he was in Medina (north of Mecca) and they advocated the general adoption if this direction for the Qibla. this explains why many early mosques from Andalusia to Central Asia face south.

Other authorities held that the Qur’ân required one to stand precisely so that one faced the Ka’ba. Now the Muslims of Meccan origin knew the when they were standing in front of the walls or corners of the Ka’ba they were facing directions specifically associated with the rising's and settings of the sun and certain fixed stars. The major axis of the rectangular base of the edifice is said to point towards the rising point of Canopus, and the minor axis is said to point to summer sunrise and winter sunset. These assertions about the Ka’ba's astronomical alignments, found in newly-discovered medieval sources, and have been confirmed by modern measurements . . .

. . . The corners of the Ka’ba were associated even in pre-Islamic times with the four main regions of the surrounding world, Syria, Iraq, for example, one should stand in the same direction as if one were standing right in front of the north-eastern wall of the Ka’ba. Thus the first Muslims in Iraq built their mosques with the prayer walls towards winter sunset because they wanted the mosques to face the north-eastern wall of the Ka’ba, Like wise the first mosques in Egypt were built with their prayer walls facing winter sunrise so that the prayer hall was parallel to the not-eastern wall of the Ka’ba. Inevitably there were differences of opinion, and different directions were favoured by particular groups. Indeed, in each major region of the Islamic World, there was a whole spectrum of directions used for the Qibla. Only rarely do the orientations of medieval mosques correspond to the Qiblas derived by computation. Recently some medieval texts have been identified which deal with the problem of the Qibla in Andalusia, the Maghrib, Egypt, Iraq and Iran, and Central Asia, Their study has done much to clarify the orientation of mosques in these areas. In order that prayer in any reasonable direction be considered valid, some legal texts assert that while facing the actual direction of the Ka’ba is optimal, facing the general direction of the Ka’ba is also legally acceptable." This is clearly based on the Hadîth of the Prophet: 'Qibla is between the East and the West.'"


In the light of these facts the Wasit and Baghdad mosques being off by 33 and 30 degrees towards north respectively is not so bad.

Bulletproofpride

 

You asked me about the reason why the 3rd caliph burnt the Qur'an's and I gave you a good and simple answer.

Bulletproofpride

 

You asked me about a certain mosque that was facing 30 degrees away from Makkah ( due to lack of scientific materials available to get the precise direction) and I gave you good and simple answer.

Bulletproofpride

 

I gave you answers from the Qur'an and Sunnah ( the 2 sources that make up islam)Forget about islamic, non-islamic history or conspiracty theories.

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Inventing a history for a people who have their own is exactly what Muslims attempt to do. Muslims scolars try to ignore Christian history written down by the natives of Jerusalem when they listen to the a-historical version of Christianity that is cooked up for them. It is unwise to start throwing stones if you own a greenhouse. As far as I am concerned the ethos of Muslim history is difficult to distinguish from a conspiracy theory, as it requires that all extant religious material belonging to both Christians and Jews to have been rewritten.

Bulletproofpride

Aug 4 2012, 04:16 AM

Ok let me put forth a similitude that you are using.

Imagine I had money and decided to construct a mosque.
I then realised that after the completion of the masjid that its 33 degrees away from makkah.

I ask you this simple question now.

Have I distored the teachings of the Propeht (PBUH) or have I (Bulletproofpride) gone wrong in my measurements.


The change of Qibla came during the time of the Prophet. We stick to this, not what came afterwards.