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Phenotype of pure ASI (Ancestral South Indian)
Topic Started: Jun 28 2012, 04:35 PM (21,206 Views)
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Crimson Guard
Jul 14 2012, 12:58 AM
They're clearly Australoid. That plot is just confusing if you'er not paying attention to the image and the accompanying text, due the west eurasia triangles being all over the place but the Vedda nearer to admixed Caucasoids, Melanasians, Negroids, Negritoid and other Australoid peoples in the PC1.

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Fig. 1. Principal coordinate analysis of 31 world populations computed from Smith's MMD, based on 13 crown traits. AA, Australian Aborigine; A/P, Afghanistan/Pakistan; B, Bengal; EE (bs), Early Eurasia (Black Sea); EE, Early Egypt; ENE, Early North Europe; ELB, Early Lake Baikal; EJ (Jo), Early Japan (Jomon); ESEA, Early South East Asia; ET, Early Taiwan; IHG, Indian hunting/gathering; J, Japan; M, Myanmar; Me, Melanesia; Mi, Micronesia; N, Nepal; NA (AA), North Africa (Afro-Asiatic); NA (In), North American (Indian); NA (I), North American (Inuit); NC (M), North China (Mongolia); NE, North Europe; NME, Near Middle East; P, Polynesia; SA (B), South Africa (Bantu); SA (In), South American (Indian); SC, South China; SI, South India; SLHG, Sri Lankan hunting/gathering; SLS, Sri Lankan Sinhalese; SLT, Sri Lankan Tamil; T, Thailand.

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[blockquote]
"The dental phenotype of Vedda has close affinities with those of early south Asian populations. They are far different from Sino American and Sunda pacific populations. Vedda shows closer affinities to Sahul Pacific and South African (Bantu) populations."[/blockquote]
Thanks for that PCA. South Indians are within the Australoid cluster.

It also shows that the Jomon Japanese are closest to Australian Aboriginies.
Edited by Crimson Guard, Jul 14 2012, 02:17 AM.
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Crimson Guard
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Eh, forgot to bold the AA and JO when I originally put it together, fixed.
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faintsmile1992
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Now we're discussing the trihybrid migration theory it's interesting the Veddah are close to Melanesia (Me) but not to Australian mainlanders (AA). This suggests there's more than one component in the peopling of the southwest Pacific, but not that the Veddah are especially related to South Asian Carpentarians because Melanesians are closer to Murrayans and Tasmanians than to the Carpenterians.

What part of Australia's the AA sample from anyway, CG?

If you ignore the 'proper' Sundadont samples as representing admixed populations as well as that useless early southeast Asian sample (ASEA), then PC1 separates a Sinodont cluster from a Europeoid-Veddoid-Melanesian-Bantu group with Australians, Jomonese and Polynesians inbetween (as a side note, notice that early Taiwanese are Sino-Americans). Only the PC1 scores for the Sinodont cluster have an obvious phylogenetic signal.

PC2 separates South Americans, Inuit, Polynesians, early Black Sea populations and early North Europeans as furthest from four or five 'Australoid' populations with all the other samples including the Melanesians and Bantu inbetween them. I've no idea what the positive score for PC2 might represent but the four populations with the lowest score on PC2 have all been considered as Australoid in the old wastebasket sense, so it might have a phylogenetic signal.

According to PC2, the Veddah are closest to the Jomon (EJ(Jo) ), Australians (AA) and Sri Lanka hunter gatherers (SLHG - who do they represent, Balangoda man?), then the early Baikalian sample (ELB - which age, race and archaeological culture?).

If the similar low scores on PC2 do represent a phylogenetic signal despite the distance along PC1, then it means mainland Australians can't be an offshoot of generalised southeast Asians because of their closeness to Jomonese (along PC1 as well!) and the Veddah and SLHG samples. Though it makes sense, I'm still not convinced this is a phylogenetic signal. I'd like to see where Aterians and neanderthals would fit on PC2...
Edited by faintsmile1992, Jul 14 2012, 09:05 PM.
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Crimson Guard
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Faintsmile
 
What part of Australia's the AA sample from anyway, CG?


Dont know. Aninu and Australoid people are often mixed with Mongoloid for many thousands of years. That nature journal citation I provided before makes sense to me.

Anyway, this is interesting:

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-Ancient Indian History And Civilization
By Sailendra Nath Sen

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People of India: Maharashtra, Volume 1
By Kumar Suresh Singh

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-Mohenjo-Daro and the Indus Civilization: Being an Official Account of ...
By John Marshall
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Rasko
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This is a very interesting discussion, minus the unnecessary hostility. According to the Reich study the bulk of "ANI" admixture is quite recent dating from 3500 years and onwards. What does this tell us regarding the inhabitants of the Indus Valley civilisation? It's exceedingly unlikely that all ASI groups had the same phenotype all across India. India is a diverse place in terms of latitude and climate. Skulls from the Indus Valley weren't similar to those of Melanesians, Andaman Islanders and Australian Aborigines.
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The fact is that South Indians are related to Australoids. It's a fact that can not be denied. The northern invading Indo-Aryans later mixed with these Australoids.
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jalu
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Jul 23 2012, 02:24 PM
The fact is that South Indians are related to Australoids. It's a fact that can not be denied. The northern invading Indo-Aryans later mixed with these Australoids.
I think you are missing the bulk of the Indians, people of Dravidian origin. How do they fit in with the Australoids and Indo-aryans?
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treopod
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Jul 23 2012, 02:24 PM
The fact is that South Indians are related to Australoids. It's a fact that can not be denied. The northern invading Indo-Aryans later mixed with these Australoids.
No, ASI and Indians are not related to australoids at all, they are completely separate races, and very distant both genetically and phenotypically. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

And the aryan invasion never happened, at most an aryan migration happened but thats far from confirmed.

Also based on the Balangoda man, we have evidence of "europoid" phenotypes in South Asia pre-neolithic, so based on that there are only two options for you guys:

1. If ANI is responsible for all europoid characterics in south asia then ANI must have been present since the Balangoda man and that means that we dont need any invasion or even neolithic migration to explain the ANI ancestry in south asia, the bulk of ANI could have been there far earlier.

2. If Balangoda was pure ASI, then that is definite proof that pre ANI south asians did not look anything like sahul australoids or andaman islanders.

You cant have it both ways, however Balangoda being pure ASI doesnt prove the aryan invasion, and balangoda being ANI does not prove ASI being related to australoids either.

This is my last post in this thread because it is obvious that some people here do not want to change their minds regardless of the facts, for whatever agenda they may have, and when they get called on it all they have to do is ban or suspend you, but it doesnt matter because I know im right about this.
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Oxy
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lol, welcome back. :biggrin:
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Rasko
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FFS tripod just give up and embrace your non-West Eurasian heritage. That's the reason you can pass as mulatto, quadroon or Latino like I can. Who wants those distinctive Middle Eastern ethnic traits anyway. It's better to be able to pass for a generic brown person who fits in across South Asia, much of the Middle East, North Africa and Latin America.
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Racial Reality
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treopod
Aug 2 2012, 12:01 AM
No, ASI and Indians are not related to australoids at all, they are completely separate races, and very distant both genetically and phenotypically. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

And the aryan invasion never happened, at most an aryan migration happened but thats far from confirmed.

Also based on the Balangoda man, we have evidence of "europoid" phenotypes in South Asia pre-neolithic, so based on that there are only two options for you guys:

1. If ANI is responsible for all europoid characterics in south asia then ANI must have been present since the Balangoda man and that means that we dont need any invasion or even neolithic migration to explain the ANI ancestry in south asia, the bulk of ANI could have been there far earlier.

2. If Balangoda was pure ASI, then that is definite proof that pre ANI south asians did not look anything like sahul australoids or andaman islanders.

You cant have it both ways, however Balangoda being pure ASI doesnt prove the aryan invasion, and balangoda being ANI does not prove ASI being related to australoids either.

This is my last post in this thread because it is obvious that some people here do not want to change their minds regardless of the facts, for whatever agenda they may have, and when they get called on it all they have to do is ban or suspend you, but it doesnt matter because I know im right about this.

Your first post back and you repeat the exact same unsupported claims that got you suspended and that were disproven throughout this thread. :shakehead:

Take another two weeks off. If you haven't learned your lesson by then, you'll be permanently banned.

And P.S. Balangoda Man was not "Europoid". He was Australoid:

[blockquote]"4. The affinities between Balangoda Man and recent Melanesians and Australian Aborigines (p. 191)."

http://sundaytimes.lk/041107/plus/books.html [/blockquote]
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faintsmile1992
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Aug 2 2012, 02:13 PM
And P.S. Balangoda Man was not "Europoid". He was Australoid:

[blockquote]"4. The affinities between Balangoda Man and recent Melanesians and Australian Aborigines (p. 191)."

http://sundaytimes.lk/041107/plus/books.html [/blockquote]
Well, that ink actually says "Amongst the salient points to have been addressed", not stating a conclusion or providing evidence for one.
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Crimson Guard
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RR is correct with the citation, that fossil is predominately Australoid with some Neanderthal overtone characters:

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-A History of Sri Lanka
By K. M. De Silva, Oxford University Press, 1981
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Wild Ram
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Is it a topic about South Asia cromagnoid? This exist?
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treopod
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Crimson Guard
Aug 3 2012, 01:01 AM
RR is correct with the citation, that fossil is predominately Australoid with some Neanderthal overtone characters:

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-A History of Sri Lanka
By K. M. De Silva, Oxford University Press, 1981
I promised not to post in this thread again, but one last point needs to be made, that old study posted by crimson guard still uses the australoid term in the same loose sense that Faintsmile mentioned, as a wastebasket name for numerous populations of widely different genetics and phenotypes. That does not work today, eventually they will be classified as something else.
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time
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Andaman Islanders without a doubt resemble some of the Ancestral South Indians. Their nose shape, lips and headshape are found in South Asians. Full lips found in African populations as well as wider noses are non-existent in Andaman Islanders. If they had straight hair they would be considered South Asians. It is only the hair that is throwing people off.

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This woman above is an Andaman Islander. She looks exactly like other South Indian populations. The only difference is her hair.
Edited by time, Aug 16 2012, 05:42 PM.
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treopod
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intasar
Aug 16 2012, 05:41 PM
Andaman Islanders without a doubt resemble some of the Ancestral South Indians. Their nose shape, lips and headshape are found in South Asians. Full lips found in African populations as well as wider noses are non-existent in Andaman Islanders. If they had straight hair they would be considered South Asians. It is only the hair that is throwing people off.

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This woman above is an Andaman Islander. She looks exactly like other South Indian populations. The only difference is her hair.
That picture is of a person from the "great andmanese" tribe

The great andamanese tribe is different from the onge and jarawa, in that they have Indian and south east asian admixture on their y-dna, they have L and O lineages.

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In contrast to the single Y haplogroup
observed in the Onge and Jarawa males, the
Great Andamanese had five different binary
mutation haplotypes, falling into haplogroups
O, L, K, and P, among ten men. This suggests
admixture with Indian (L-M11 and P-M45)
and East Asian (O-M122 and O-M95) male
lineages.[...] These findings reflect the history of
the Great Andamanese in colonial times. The
tribe was pacified forcibly by the British in the
19th century and coexisted with thousands of
male laborers and convicts from the Indian
mainland. The few surviving members of the
Great Andamanese tribe are now settled in
Strait Island in the Andamans and bear little
physical resemblance to other Andamanese.


http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/CB_2002_p1-18.pdf

So they are mixed with indians and that is why they share some features. "Pure" andamanese like the jarawa and Onge look nothing like Indians, they look like this:

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Bulletproofpride
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You got people in Bollywood who look as white as Lebanese and people as dark as Andamanese and then you have the guts to call horners mutt and Indian pure lol
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treopod
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Bulletproofpride
Aug 16 2012, 07:35 PM
You got people in Bollywood who look as white as Lebanese and people as dark as Andamanese and then you have the guts to call horners mutt and Indian pure lol
I have never said Indians are pure, and that is because Indians are not one ethnic group, they are tons of different ethnic groups in India. but Andamanese are different people, they are only considered "Indians" based on the fact their islands are owned by India.

Horners however are a recent mutt population, and especially you somalis since you are only one single ethnic group of around 10 million, that makes you the perfect definition of a hybrid population.
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Bulletproofpride
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India is mutt just like you said because they have 100 founding lineages.
We have 1 Paternal founding lineage who's ancestral father CF was born in east africa.

Edited by Bulletproofpride, Aug 16 2012, 07:46 PM.
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