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Why are Jews considered white?
Topic Started: Jun 27 2012, 02:12 PM (5,232 Views)
JewFist
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This is one thing I never understood. Let me break it down.

If white means Caucasoid, then Arabs, Turks, Armenians, Hispanics (although they have Mongoloid and Negroid in them, to varying degrees), and even some Indians are white.

If white means white skinned, then I could point you to many Ashkenazis who don't have white skin, including my mother. There are many that range from olive to being as brown skinned as any gulf Arab (I'll post some examples later). Furthermore, a lot of Middle Easterners and Latinos have white skin. I even knew someone in high school who was Indian, and yet his skin was paler than mine even.

If white means European, then Ashkenazis are only part white, because they are predominantly West Asian. Latinos are also heavily European admixed, sometimes to an even larger extent than we are. American blacks usually have a white ancestor or two, and even when they have some fairly recent white ancestry (such as having a white parent) they are still considered black by most people.

If white means benefiting from white privilege, then a similar argument to the ones made above can be made here. You could also make the case that there are many white privileges that don't quite extend to Jews. Plus, there is such a thing as gentile privilege, which are exclusively held by gentiles. All of this is articulated in the link below, although I clearly disagree with her on several things.

I never understood why people put those other groups in the non-white category and yet make an exception for ethnic Jews.

Anyway, here's that link: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2009/01/26/a-gentile-privilege-checklist/

I apologize in advance for not posting any excerpts from the article here. I'd do that, but I don't want the OP to be too long.
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Semitic Duwa
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As I said, mere labels...
"I know that elections must be limited only to those who understand that the Arabs are the deadly enemy of the Jewish state, who would bring on us a slow Auschwitz - not with gas, but with knives and hatchets."

-Meir Kahane
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Robert
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A lot of those are considered white already.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ErmfiV6nM[/youtube]
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7eleven
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yes white is pretty much a label. but imo it can be used to describe any light skinned caucasoid.
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Mirror
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It's simple: If a Jew gets mistaken for a European that means he looks European and he is white phenotypically. And many Jews look European indeed, especially Ashenazi ones. But Mizrahi or Sephardi ones tend to look non-white.
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JewFist
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Jun 27 2012, 04:47 PM
It's simple: If a Jew gets mistaken for a European that means he looks European and he is white phenotypically. And many Jews look European indeed, especially Ashenazi ones. But Mizrahi or Sephardi ones tend to look non-white.


Lots of non-Judean Middle Easterners and Latinos look very European as well. Why do we still consider them non-white, but not Jews?
Further, I've met plenty of Mizrahi Jews who look virtually no different than Ashkenazi or Sephardi. I wish I had pictures of them.
Edited by JewFist, Jun 27 2012, 05:12 PM.
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Semitic Duwa
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JewFist
Jun 27 2012, 05:04 PM
I've met plenty of Mizrahi Jews who look virtually no different than Ashkenazi or Sephardi. I wish I had pictures of them.
Sephardim and Ashkenazim are basically the same, they plot together and are near-indistinguishable.
"I know that elections must be limited only to those who understand that the Arabs are the deadly enemy of the Jewish state, who would bring on us a slow Auschwitz - not with gas, but with knives and hatchets."

-Meir Kahane
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JewFist
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Semitic Duwa
Jun 27 2012, 05:22 PM
JewFist
Jun 27 2012, 05:04 PM
I've met plenty of Mizrahi Jews who look virtually no different than Ashkenazi or Sephardi. I wish I had pictures of them.
Sephardim and Ashkenazim are basically the same, they plot together and are near-indistinguishable.
Yup.

All I'm asking for is a little consistency here, because otherwise it just looks like people are singling us out. And I know from experience that when we're singled out, it usually isn't for good reasons.
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PortuguesePoster
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Not all Jews are considered white. Most Jews are considered white because they look fully Caucasian and most Jews in the Western world have a centuries long history in various European countries. Exotic looking Middle Eastern Jews are a bit of an oddity outside of the Middle East so most people are much more familiar with European Jews. If America had received mass migrations of Jews from Ethiopia, Morocco and Yemen instead of Poland, Russia and Belarus Jews would not be considered white.

For the record, groups such as Lebanese, Turks, Armenians and, before the emergence of the term "Hispanic" in the 1960s, Spanish-speaking whites from Latin America were legally considered white, although socially they would be more of an "ethnic" rather than "mainstream" sort of white.
Edited by PortuguesePoster, Jun 27 2012, 06:48 PM.
"Meds aren't really dusky wogs, they're just whites with more sunshine in 'em! :P "
faintsmile1992

"Nobody is too white for salsa music"
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Serb_For_Truth
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Most Middle-eastern people and all Europeans regardless from Greece, Sicily or Russia are labeled as white in the US. However a hundred years ago or so, white in US culture meant strictly anglo-saxon.

So the label is changing and morphing. Just politics really.
Ја не одлучујем да ли ћу ићи у битку по томе колика је сила која ми прети, него по томе колку светињу браним.
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Mirror
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JewFist
Jun 27 2012, 05:04 PM


Lots of non-Judean Middle Easterners and Latinos look very European as well. Why do we still consider them non-white, but not Jews?
I dont know.
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Semitic Duwa
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Serb_For_Truth
Jun 27 2012, 06:51 PM
Most Middle-eastern people and all Europeans regardless from Greece, Sicily or Russia are labeled as white in the US. However a hundred years ago or so, white in US culture meant strictly anglo-saxon.

So the label is changing and morphing. Just politics really.
I agree.
"I know that elections must be limited only to those who understand that the Arabs are the deadly enemy of the Jewish state, who would bring on us a slow Auschwitz - not with gas, but with knives and hatchets."

-Meir Kahane
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faintsmile1992
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Serb_For_Truth
Jun 27 2012, 06:51 PM
Most Middle-eastern people and all Europeans regardless from Greece, Sicily or Russia are labeled as white in the US. However a hundred years ago or so, white in US culture meant strictly anglo-saxon.

So the label is changing and morphing. Just politics really.
Deracination.
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Berserk
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Serb_For_Truth
Jun 27 2012, 06:51 PM
Most Middle-eastern people and all Europeans regardless from Greece, Sicily or Russia are labeled as white in the US. However a hundred years ago or so, white in US culture meant strictly anglo-saxon.

So the label is changing and morphing. Just politics really.


Middle Easterners and North Africans are only labeled as white in government forms and on the Census. That doesn't mean however that they're culturally accepted as white. Most Americans view Middle Easterners and North Africans as non-white, especially if they're Muslim. The term white typically describes people who look like they could come from a European country and also happen to be culturally Western. Islam is not culturally Western, so someone like this would not be accepted as white in the U.S.:


Posted Image


Whereas Arabs like Ralph Nader or Steve Jobs would be accepted as white because they're non-Muslim and they grew up in the United States, so they have a Western mindset.

Posted Image Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image
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PortuguesePoster
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Berserk
Jun 27 2012, 10:03 PM
Middle Easterners and North Africans are only labeled as white in government forms and on the Census. That doesn't mean however that they're culturally accepted as white. Most Americans view Middle Easterners and North Africans as non-white, especially if they're Muslim. The term white typically describes people who look like they could come from a European country and also happen to be culturally Western. Islam is not culturally Western, so someone like this would not be accepted as white in the U.S.:


Posted Image


Whereas Arabs like Ralph Nader or Steve Jobs would be accepted as white because they're non-Muslim and they grew up in the United States, so they have a Western mindset.

Posted Image Posted Image
I agree. The vast majority of Jews in the US come originally from European countries, especially Eastern and Central European countries and tend to be light complexioned with "off" features blended away and more importantly they are culturally European/western, unusual religion notwithstanding. If they had come from Morocco, Yemen or Persia instead of Russian and Germany they would probably not be considered white because Jews in these countries are culturally Arab or Oriental. Even in Israel there is cultural/ethnic tension between these groups.

Lebanese Maronites and Armenians, despite not being from Europe, were regarded in the past as "dark Catholic ethnic types" in the US just like southern Europeans. 2nd rate whites but whites nevertheless. Today their descendents are largely assimilated into mainstream whitedom.
Edited by PortuguesePoster, Jun 27 2012, 10:44 PM.
"Meds aren't really dusky wogs, they're just whites with more sunshine in 'em! :P "
faintsmile1992

"Nobody is too white for salsa music"
Gotlander
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Serb_For_Truth
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Berserk
Jun 27 2012, 10:03 PM
Serb_For_Truth
Jun 27 2012, 06:51 PM
Most Middle-eastern people and all Europeans regardless from Greece, Sicily or Russia are labeled as white in the US. However a hundred years ago or so, white in US culture meant strictly anglo-saxon.

So the label is changing and morphing. Just politics really.


Middle Easterners and North Africans are only labeled as white in government forms and on the Census. That doesn't mean however that they're culturally accepted as white. Most Americans view Middle Easterners and North Africans as non-white, especially if they're Muslim. The term white typically describes people who look like they could come from a European country and also happen to be culturally Western. Islam is not culturally Western, so someone like this would not be accepted as white in the U.S.:



Whereas Arabs like Ralph Nader or Steve Jobs would be accepted as white because they're non-Muslim and they grew up in the United States, so they have a Western mindset.
Yes, that's true. But I think it's more due the current political climate rather than religion. Non-integrated muslim Arabs/Persians in the US are not fully accepted as "white" socially today, very similarly to how non-integrated Russians/Soviet immigrants were not socially accepted as "white" in the 50's and 60's America.


Ја не одлучујем да ли ћу ићи у битку по томе колика је сила која ми прети, него по томе колку светињу браним.
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Berserk
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PortuguesePoster
Jun 27 2012, 10:40 PM
I agree. The vast majority of Jews in the US come originally from European countries, especially Eastern and Central European countries and tend to be light complexioned with "off" features blended away and more importantly they are culturally European/western, unusual religion notwithstanding. If they had come from Morocco, Yemen or Persia instead of Russian and Germany they would probably not be considered white because Jews in these countries are culturally Arab or Oriental. Even in Israel there is cultural/ethnic tension between these groups.

Lebanese Maronites and Armenians, despite not being from Europe, were regarded in the past as "dark Catholic ethnic types" in the US just like southern Europeans. 2nd rate whites but whites nevertheless. Today their descendents are largely assimilated into mainstream whitedom.


Exactly! Americans and Europeans are willing to overlook minor differences in facial features and skin tone between themselves and Middle Easterners or Jews, but they're not willing to overlook alien cultural elements like Islam and foreign cultural practices. There was a time in the United States when only Northwest European types were considered white, with the one exception being the Irish since even though they were NW European, the Irish were culturally different from the mainstream Anglo Americans since they were Catholics.

The WASPs of that time saw the Irish as representing a cultural threat to them, since they did not want the Catholic Church influencing affairs in the United States, so that's why Irish people were labeled as non-white, even going so far as to draw ridiculous cartoons of Irish people to make them seem different.


Notice how the Irish man in this pic is portrayed as looking almost like an Australian Aboriginal. From left to right (Irish man, Anglo man, Black man):

Posted Image



An Irish crowd attacking Anglo-American police officers. Notice how they look like monsters:

Posted Image



More cartoons depicting Irish people:

Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image



In the first part of the 20th century, massive immigration from Italy and Eastern Europe scared mainstream WASP Americans since traditionally their population had been made up of NW Europeans, so they regarded those types to be white. It wasn't until the second half of the 20th century that Southern and Eastern European immigrants to the United States were accepted as white because once they assimilated into the mainstream Anglo culture, then there wasn't much difference between them and the WASPs.

Middle Easterners and North Africans on the other hand have a more difficult time assimilating and being accepted as white, because aside from the fact that many of them are too swarthy looking with distinct facial features, most of them practice Islam which has historically been hated by Westerners since it represents a threat to Christianity, and the Christian base upon which Western cultures are built is at odds with Islamic cultural practices.

Ashkenazi Jews don't have this problem because they've been living in Europe for centuries, so they're fully assimilated to European culture, except for the Orthodox Jews, although they tend to keep to themselves for the most part. Someone like Einstein would never be viewed as non-white, except by Stormfront types who are delusional and not in tune with mainstream society.


Posted Image Posted Image
Edited by Berserk, Jun 27 2012, 11:42 PM.
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Aghilas
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PortuguesePoster
Jun 27 2012, 10:40 PM
I agree. The vast majority of Jews in the US come originally from European countries, especially Eastern and Central European countries and tend to be light complexioned with "off" features blended away and more importantly they are culturally European/western, unusual religion notwithstanding. If they had come from Morocco, Yemen or Persia instead of Russian and Germany they would probably not be considered white because Jews in these countries are culturally Arab or Oriental. Even in Israel there is cultural/ethnic tension between these groups.

Lebanese Maronites and Armenians, despite not being from Europe, were regarded in the past as "dark Catholic ethnic types" in the US just like southern Europeans. 2nd rate whites but whites nevertheless. Today their descendents are largely assimilated into mainstream whitedom.
In France , Jews are considered White , yet the majority are Sephardic (from North Africa more often than not). It's just a label.
Edited by Aghilas, Jun 28 2012, 01:56 AM.
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JewFist
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Berserk
Jun 27 2012, 11:38 PM
PortuguesePoster
Jun 27 2012, 10:40 PM
I agree. The vast majority of Jews in the US come originally from European countries, especially Eastern and Central European countries and tend to be light complexioned with "off" features blended away and more importantly they are culturally European/western, unusual religion notwithstanding. If they had come from Morocco, Yemen or Persia instead of Russian and Germany they would probably not be considered white because Jews in these countries are culturally Arab or Oriental. Even in Israel there is cultural/ethnic tension between these groups.

Lebanese Maronites and Armenians, despite not being from Europe, were regarded in the past as "dark Catholic ethnic types" in the US just like southern Europeans. 2nd rate whites but whites nevertheless. Today their descendents are largely assimilated into mainstream whitedom.


Exactly! Americans and Europeans are willing to overlook minor differences in facial features and skin tone between themselves and Middle Easterners or Jews, but they're not willing to overlook alien cultural elements like Islam and foreign cultural practices. There was a time in the United States when only Northwest European types were considered white, with the one exception being the Irish since even though they were NW European, the Irish were culturally different from the mainstream Anglo Americans since they were Catholics.

The WASPs of that time saw the Irish as representing a cultural threat to them, since they did not want the Catholic Church influencing affairs in the United States, so that's why Irish people were labeled as non-white, even going so far as to draw ridiculous cartoons of Irish people to make them seem different.


Notice how the Irish man in this pic is portrayed as looking almost like an Australian Aboriginal. From left to right (Irish man, Anglo man, Black man):

Posted Image



An Irish crowd attacking Anglo-American police officers. Notice how they look like monsters:

Posted Image



More cartoons depicting Irish people:

Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Posted Image Posted Image



In the first part of the 20th century, massive immigration from Italy and Eastern Europe scared mainstream WASP Americans since traditionally their population had been made up of NW Europeans, so they regarded those types to be white. It wasn't until the second half of the 20th century that Southern and Eastern European immigrants to the United States were accepted as white because once they assimilated into the mainstream Anglo culture, then there wasn't much difference between them and the WASPs.

Middle Easterners and North Africans on the other hand have a more difficult time assimilating and being accepted as white, because aside from the fact that many of them are too swarthy looking with distinct facial features, most of them practice Islam which has historically been hated by Westerners since it represents a threat to Christianity, and the Christian base upon which Western cultures are built is at odds with Islamic cultural practices.

Ashkenazi Jews don't have this problem because they've been living in Europe for centuries, so they're fully assimilated to European culture, except for the Orthodox Jews, although they tend to keep to themselves for the most part. Someone like Einstein would never be viewed as non-white, except by Stormfront types who are delusional and not in tune with mainstream society.


Posted Image Posted Image
True. I guess it all boils down to xenophobia. I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family and our culture didn't feel "white" at all. The environment I grew up in always seemed to reflect our Oriental heritage. We never felt white, and we never called ourselves white.

Of course, I'm different since I have a NW European father.
Edited by JewFist, Jun 28 2012, 04:46 AM.
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dapork
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It also has to do with the fact that many Ashkenazi Jews look just like Europeans. When I was a kid I'd heard the term "Jewish" a few times, but it really wasn't until middle-school that I gave it much thought. We were once reading a story about some kid in NY City who came from a Jewish family. The story described some history, in particular how the kid's grandmother had been harassed by Cossacks before coming to America. I asked the teacher, "what country do Jews come from?" and he said, "it's a religion, not a nationality". I still didn't give it too much thought, nor did I realize yet that it's more than just a religion.

As a kid, plenty of my friends were Jews, but I didn't even know and, to me, they were white just as I was. Finally at some point I heard my mom mention something like "it's ridiculous that they fight in Israel, considering they have the same ancestry". I was like "what? what are you talking about? but Jews are white and look nothing like the darker-skinned Middle-Easterners". Eventually, I learned that Jews do have phenotypic differences, and I was then able to distinguish them. I still thought of them as white, because except for a sometimes larger, and more hooked nose, most of the kids I went to school with who were Jewish didn't look much different from the other European-descended people. That's why now, I think Ashkenazi Jews must have mixed with Europeans. It wasn't until I was a teenager that I saw some (what I think were) Sephardic Jews, and they did look more Middle-Eastern.
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