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| Transhumanism; What do you think? | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 28 2012, 06:54 PM (669 Views) | |
| Abouna | Apr 28 2012, 06:54 PM Post #1 |
Give me your knowledge
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I am very interested in the works of scholars such as Ray Kurzweil and Hugo De Garis. For those of you that are not aware of the concept of Transhumanism, have a quick look. The idea that technology will be the only form of sentient life to inhabit the earth seems plausible to me but i feel we are way too far back in advances to say for sure if this is possible. I like the idea of developing technology with the ability to overcome the limitations of human biology but i feel authors such as Kurzweil come across as too arrogant. He gives a date when the Singularity is meant to occur according to a calculation he determined using Moore's law. To claim to have a date and know exactly what and how it will happen seems like wishful thinking to me and should have no standing from a purely scientific perspective. I for one would welcome the technological singularity(assuming it happens) as long as they remove the whole concept of morality out of the equation. One of humanities greatest faults are it's emotions, we have too much compassion, pride, anger and love. So much that it clouds our ability as a species to take actions logically and rationally. If earth was inhabited by 'beings' who do not input any irrational motives into the thought process then we have essentially conjured the most efficient and logical brain. Doing so would allow society to progress through the best path without the drawbacks that humans have endured in modern and ancient history due to our biological disposition. But the most interesting thing i pulled out of this was mind uploading. If we are able to achieve such a feat then we could potentially travel as far as the universe will take us, assuming that it is possible to have more than one copy of ones mind and also that we have the fundamental concepts of space travel under our belt. There would be no need to toy with the idea of reproduction in space flight because we would have a self aware brain that can essentially live forever and create multiple copies in case of destruction. Thoughts? Edited by Abouna, Apr 28 2012, 07:00 PM.
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If God did not intend for us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of meat? - John Cleese And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence. - Bertrand Russell Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca the Younger | |
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| Ulrich | Apr 28 2012, 09:10 PM Post #2 |
Ich habe keine angst
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I think it's a good idea, it can help humanity evolve further and make things like eugenics unnecessary to improve things and cure otherwise incurable diseases. I am for it as tech has never really done us bad, if anything it's improved our lives and is what separates us from animals. |
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| Keksalarm | Apr 28 2012, 09:59 PM Post #3 |
Senior Member
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I am a transhumanist and it's elements are basically what I've been talking about in this forum all the time. The technological singularity is what humanity is ultimately heading at. At the same time it will bring the end of what we would define humanity, and also the seed of the earth which will spread to other earth-like planets. The end of humanity will be either transhumanism, or death in a firestorm before it can be realized. Curious watching for which of these two options people will decide to go! All the issues discussed in this forum, like races, political ideologies, traditional religions etc... seem like wee jokes compared to that! |
| It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. - Charles Darwin | |
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| Dewd | Apr 28 2012, 10:21 PM Post #4 |
Advanced Member
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sounds idealistic but i do like the idea generally and agree with what most have said. if only we'd live long enough to see this singularity happen. for now i think it's worth it to keep developing technology and AI to help humans progress further and enjoy better lives. but we still have so much to deal with and so many problems to get out of the way, most of which are in a way artificial and created by ourselves over differences that aren't that important in the long run and reality. politics and war etc. but i feel many are too blind and only see their own short term selfish problems, so it may be a while till we get real progress. we're far from an ideal world. i feel like we've also sort of slowed down or stalled a bit as far as the rate of revolutionary technology development in recent years, but i have faith that things will get better eventually but anyway, i think emotions are still what make people human. i can see why some would think we'd be better off without em, but then what are we anymore? machines. doesn't sound too comforting really. kind of almost reminds me of a brave new world scenario. i mean supposing even if morality and emotion would enable us to get to a very advanced state, how would we enjoy the fruits of our successful labor if we didn't have these essential human qualities? |
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| Robert | Apr 28 2012, 10:40 PM Post #5 |
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I like the idea of it. Honestly, I would want to stay alive forever even if I were made of Darth Vader parts. |
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| faintsmile1992 | Apr 29 2012, 03:37 AM Post #6 |
A cat of a different coat
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You can't upload the mind because the mind doesn't exist, only behaviour. |
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Scientist - My findings are pointless when taken out of context. Media - Scientist claims "findings are pointless"  
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| Dragos | Apr 29 2012, 04:17 AM Post #7 |
Upper Paleolithic Satyr
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Mind can't be uploaded because it doesn't exist as a singled out entity. That is Matrix Science Fiction. You can't transfer it into bytes of information because memory and thought process is stored in the brain only as long as it is active, and consciousness and the cognitive processes are a particularity of the nervous system. Even though we think of ourselves as highly rational most memories in our brain are imprinted with the help of emotions, it's the way the environment imprints itself on our memory. If you eliminate our organic self, then our conscience could be reduced to a series of algorithms which would actually stop resembling your true self...Otherwise said, your conscience is determined by your organic existence... Unless there may exist "spirit"...i don't think it exists... Edited by Dragos, Apr 29 2012, 04:26 AM.
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| "The savage lives within himself while social man lives outside himself and can only live in the opinion of others, so that he seems to receive the feeling of his own existence only from the judgement of others concerning him." Jean Jacques Rousseau | |
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| Robert | Apr 29 2012, 04:39 AM Post #8 |
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Advanced Member
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There is no singularity that defines the mind as an entity but only reaction to senses and stimuli and already learned behaviors. I can see how that would be a problem for transhumanism. |
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| Infinite_Ammo | Apr 29 2012, 05:34 AM Post #9 |
Student of Knowledge
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An ideology for the weak. |
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| Berserk | Apr 29 2012, 05:49 AM Post #10 |
Advanced Member
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We could have fully robotic bodies while still retaining our brains. The brain can be kept youthful through the use of tiny nanobots that will enter it and repair damage. We could also genetically engineer ourselves not to age. If we could upload our brains and store them so that if we die we can recreate ourselves, that would create many philosophical dilemmas. For instance, if you die and your brain is installed in a new body, would that new you have the right to your property and identity considering that the real you died? This will create many legal complications in my opinion. |
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| faintsmile1992 | Apr 29 2012, 06:06 AM Post #11 |
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A cat of a different coat
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Exactly, people think transhumanism makes sense because it uses sientific sounding language. But its principles are really pseudosientific. The mind is just a user illusion. |
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Scientist - My findings are pointless when taken out of context. Media - Scientist claims "findings are pointless"
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| Crimson Guard | Apr 29 2012, 06:21 AM Post #12 |
Spirit of Vengeance
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Never heard of "transhumanism", sounds too much like transsexual. |
     
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| Berserk | Apr 29 2012, 06:36 AM Post #13 |
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Advanced Member
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LOL! Transhumanism means to go beyond being human. To use advancing technologies to enhance current human abilities so that we can radically exceed current intellectual and physical abilities. This short video summarizes what Transhumanism is all about: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj_-sBNQKcQ[/youtube] And, this clip from the movie Gattaca explains genetic engineering to a certain extent: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP1cCjBkWZU&feature=player_embedded[/youtube] |
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| Keksalarm | Apr 29 2012, 02:31 PM Post #14 |
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Senior Member
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A mind doesn't exist? Wew, that's new to me! We can neither capture nor really measure mind, but that doesn't mean it is not there! We can only measure the effects of mind, which is behavior. Measuring this behavior is all psychology is about! But also brainwaves as a result of mind do exist. Early behaviorists claimed that everything happening in the brain, that can't be measured, is unscientific and shouldn't be dealt with. However, one of these behaviorists, B.F. Skinner, was one of the biggest critics of his own finds. He became famous with his rat experiment on operant conditioning, in which he conditioned rats on pressing a button for food. But if mind can't be measured and thus doesn't exist, then we can't claim it was the examiner who planed the experiment and conditioned the rats, but the rats conditioned the examiner! All the thoughts we have, the emotions, our memory, our behavior, are the result of complicated chemical and electrical constellations of our whole body nervous system. What if it becomes possible to capture and store this constellation some day? This will only be a shot of a moment, but further thoughts and behavior could be simulated by implanting it into other humans or robots. As Dragos already pointed out, an organic system with proper functions and an environment it can perceive will be necessary in order to simulate emotions. But who says that this will not happen? There could be robots or space ships with complicated organic systems, which have even a higher sensitivity to their environment than humans do, like perception of radiation, pressure, higher colour spectrum etc... Intelligence and emotions won't be comparative to what we know of us humans today, it will be very different. But this is what I expect will happen, and the end of humanity, as what we know it, to be. Edited by Keksalarm, Apr 29 2012, 02:35 PM.
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| It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. - Charles Darwin | |
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| Dragos | Apr 29 2012, 02:36 PM Post #15 |
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Upper Paleolithic Satyr
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After i posted that it came to my mind that it could be possible to reproduce the human faculties of sensing into the exact artificial replicas...but not the same mind
Edited by Dragos, Apr 29 2012, 02:36 PM.
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| "The savage lives within himself while social man lives outside himself and can only live in the opinion of others, so that he seems to receive the feeling of his own existence only from the judgement of others concerning him." Jean Jacques Rousseau | |
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| Keksalarm | Apr 29 2012, 02:39 PM Post #16 |
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Senior Member
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Sorry Dragos, but I had to quote this for irony! 
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| It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. - Charles Darwin | |
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| Dragos | Apr 29 2012, 02:43 PM Post #17 |
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Upper Paleolithic Satyr
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That's just a figure of speech...while i usually talk to people i don't try to explain them that we have no mind but use this already established formula be it wrong or right...even though i said there is no mind outside of the body our highly egocentric/anthropocentric selfs like to trick us into believing that there is.
Edited by Dragos, Apr 29 2012, 02:48 PM.
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| "The savage lives within himself while social man lives outside himself and can only live in the opinion of others, so that he seems to receive the feeling of his own existence only from the judgement of others concerning him." Jean Jacques Rousseau | |
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| faintsmile1992 | Apr 29 2012, 03:05 PM Post #18 |
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A cat of a different coat
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If we hold a 'mind' to exist just because humans feel one is there, then the delusions of schizophrenics must be held to be real as well. And whatever the flaws of behaviourism as a school may have been, they were quite right that there's no such thing as mind only behaviour (or that if there is a mind, like God it can't be demonstrated or tested so it doesn't belong in scientific textbooks). Its very hard to define 'mind' in a scientifically meaningful sense, because no one includes all brain or nervous system activity within the concept of 'mind', people relate mind to the fuzzy and unhelpful subject of 'consciousness'. When the existence of consciousness as people perceive it is disproven by the existence of blindsight phenomena. "But if mind can't be measured and thus doesn't exist, then we can't claim it was the examiner who planed the experiment and conditioned the rats, but the rats conditioned the examiner!" What difference does it make to the outcome? This is mere phenomenology. |
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Scientist - My findings are pointless when taken out of context. Media - Scientist claims "findings are pointless"
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| Toiletman | Apr 29 2012, 03:40 PM Post #19 |
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fat megalomanic nerd
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One major step towards transhumanism was recently made creating XNA. XNA and its principles are able to translate the code of our DNA/RNA into it and back. One of our biggest problems in aging is that errors happen everytime our body naturally does DNA/RNA translation and produces proteins eventually. XNA however is very robust and cannot be damaged by acid for example. However, it will in the near future only be a big advance in medicine. Transhumanism is a great idea in general and can also be applied practically. I mean, we must not assume the end goal of immortality as everything transhumanism is. Already our modern medicine is somewhat transhumanism through the use of protheses. Just look at this one guy with the two high end artificial limbs who ran world record times. That is already transhumanism. What I would find worth researching would be being able to get oxygene from water like fish. However, that will still take decades if not centuries and if western civilisation stops and east asians fail,too, it might never happen. |
| If you take anything in this forum overly serious, you should really go and see a doctor. | |
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| JintiNeog | Apr 29 2012, 05:54 PM Post #20 |
Full Member
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Interesting topic! hopefully our next to next generation will have the opportunity to live in a transhuman era...and in case transhumansim succeeded that will gonna be a real threat towards environment and mother earth as a result of excessive population growth...oh why to worry half of the transhuman will left Earth for good ,they,ll be inhabitant of some other earth like planet lol |
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