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Red hair is most common in Ireland
Topic Started: Oct 27 2011, 10:11 PM (6,859 Views)
Trog
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Red hair today is generally associated with the Scots and Irish, but there have been no consistent efforts to establish the prevalence of the condition.

“It has actually become harder to find the prevalence of red hair today,” said Rees. “More and more women — and some men — now dye their hair and we simply have no idea if a redhead is a real one or if a blonde is a redhead under the dye. As a result the incidence of red hair in Britain is still a bit of a mystery.”

Enter the scientists of the People of the British Isles project: thanks to their efforts, this most distinctive characteristic is now opening up its mysteries for the first time. Testing their white cell samples for two of the half-dozen red-hair versions of the MC1R gene, they were able to show their frequency in each area of the British Isles. The results were intriguing.

Where one is the maximum value, they got figures of 0.16 and 0.23 for the frequencies of red-hair genes in Cornwall and Devon. The frequency in Oxfordshire was 0.07; in Sussex and Kent 0.13; in northeast England 0.11; in Lincolnshire 0.07; and in Cumbria nil. In Wales the figure was 0.21, and in Orkney a high 0.26. But the highest was in Ireland. Using data from other research studies, the team got a figure for Ireland of 0.31, confirmation of the stereotypical image of the red-haired Irishman. The results are remarkable, as Sir Walter Bodmer, the Oxford geneticist leading the project, acknowledges: “I was amazed at them. I didn’t expect to see something like this.”

The research gives us, for the first time, an insight into the startling numbers of native people who have been described as having red hair in ancient times.

Here is why red hair is so common in Ireland:


But why do we have such numbers in these parts of the British Isles today and not others? The answer, says Bodmer, is that red-hair genes were common among the first Britons and that populations in the archipelago’s fringes still carry their bloodline. “Genes for red hair first appeared in human beings about 40,000 to 50,000 years ago,” agrees Rees.

These genes were then carried into the islands by the original settlers, men and women who “would have been relatively tall, with little body fat, athletic, fair-skinned and who would have had red hair”, says David Miles, of English Heritage.

Redheads therefore represent the land’s most ancient lineages.
So if you want an image of how those first people appeared, don’t think of a hairy savage with a mane of thick black hair. Contemplate instead a picture of a slim, ginger-haired individual: Prince Harry, perhaps, or the actress Nicole Kidman who has Scottish and Irish descent.

Why did those early Britons have so many redheads in their midst in the first place? Is there an evolutionary advantage to having red hair in this part of the world? According to Rees, the answer may be yes.

The MC1R variants that cause red hair also have an effect on the skin. As a result, redheads do not make enough of the dark pigment melanin to protect them against the sun’s powerful ultraviolet rays. Their skin rarely tans. It just burns or freckles.

In Africa, where modern humans first evolved 150,000 years ago, this would have been fatal. In northern Europe, however, melanin-free skin could have provided an advantage because we make vitamin D in our skin when sunlight shines on it.

Dark-skinned people were protected against the African sun, but their ability to make vitamin D would have been badly affected in relatively gloomy northern Europe. This could have caused rickets, resulting in weak bones and curved legs — bad news for a hunter-gatherer. Rickets is particularly damaging for women, as it increases pelvic deformations, raising the risk of death in childbirth. So, the theory goes, we evolved white, melanin-free skin that has no dark pigment to block sunlight and cause rickets. Red hair was a side effect.

So there it is: being a redhead could mean you possess an evolutionary advantage over non-red-haired people.


http://irishtribesman.blogspot.com/2007/01/red-hair-is-most-common-in-ireland.html
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Berserk
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Wow. So, 31% of Irish people have reddish hair? I guess a lot of Irish people are dying their hair darker or blonde then.


I don't like this part of the article:


Quote:
 

But why do we have such numbers in these parts of the British Isles today and not others? The answer, says Bodmer, is that red-hair genes were common among the first Britons and that populations in the archipelago’s fringes still carry their bloodline. “Genes for red hair first appeared in human beings about 40,000 to 50,000 years ago,” agrees Rees.

These genes were then carried into the islands by the original settlers, men and women who “would have been relatively tall, with little body fat, athletic, fair-skinned and who would have had red hair”, says David Miles, of English Heritage.

Redheads therefore represent the land’s most ancient lineages. So if you want an image of how those first people appeared, don’t think of a hairy savage with a mane of thick black hair. Contemplate instead a picture of a slim, ginger-haired individual: Prince Harry, perhaps, or the actress Nicole Kidman who has Scottish and Irish descent.



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Red hair has nothing to do with facial features or body type. The most ancient Britons and Irish people might have had a high percentage of red haired people but that doesn't mean those red haired people looked like Prince Harry or Nicole Kidman. The influx of Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavian invaders over thousands of years have made modern Britons and Irish people look more Nordic in terms of their features than they would have looked like 10,000 years ago. The original population was made up of Meds who settled that region when Briton was still connected to France and Ireland was connected to Britain.


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Keep in mind that Neanderthals are also thought to have had red hair and they certainly did not look like Prince Harry or Nicole Kidman, nor were they tall or lean; they were short and robust.
Edited by Berserk, Oct 27 2011, 11:18 PM.
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Trog
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To be honest, having travelled through quite a lot of Ireland, red hair didn't seem all that common to me, so I really don't understand the figures. But it's worth debating. BTW, that so called "Med" thing really has no basis, not if speaking genetically and the figures suggest that red hair is less common in areas settled by Norse/germanics. So it seems red hair is connected to the original populations and as noted before, red heads seem to crop up more in dark-haired siblings rather than blonde, an example being Victoria Beckham who has a ginger sister.
Edited by Trog, Oct 27 2011, 11:52 PM.
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Mjora
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The Udmurts have often been described as an extremely red-haired and light-eyed people,[3] and there have been claims that they are the "most red-headed" people in the world.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people
Edited by Mjora, Oct 27 2011, 11:54 PM.
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HoboWithAShotGun
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To be honest, having travelled through quite a lot of Ireland, red hair didn't seem all that common to me, so I really don't understand the figures.


If not Ireland, than which countries do the sight of red hair seem common to you ? Romania ? Albania ? Armenia ?
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Berserk
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To be honest, having travelled through quite a lot of Ireland, red hair didn't seem all that common to me, so I really don't understand the figures. But it's worth debating.



The article insinuates that lots of Irish people are dying their hair since their genes don't match up with the visual accounts. So, people with the genes for red hair are walking around Ireland that don't have red hair, because they're dying it blonde, brown, or black. The 30% figure seems reasonable if you look at Irish children since hair dying is a practice of adults:


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Quote:
 
BTW, that so called "Med" thing really has no basis, not if speaking genetically and the figures suggest that red hair is less common in areas settled by Norse/germanics. So it seems red hair is connected to the original populations and as noted before



I didn't say that red hair came from the Germanics. I said that the original population of Briton and Ireland most likely had a high frequency of red haired people but that they wouldn't have looked Nordish like Nicole Kidman.



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, red heads seem to crop up more in dark-haired siblings rather than blonde, an example being Victoria Beckham who has a ginger sister.


Lindsay Lohan, who is a redhead, has a dark haired sister:


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Bender
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I recall reading scotland is the most redhead place reaching 13% of their population. In Ireland It's said 10% of the population exhibit redhead feature although nearly 40% of their population carries the gene. The percentages should vary depending on how certain hair color shades such as strawberry blond and auburn/reddish-brown are included/excluded of the red haired pool.
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Berserk
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Bender
Oct 28 2011, 12:46 AM
I recall reading scotland is the most redhead place reaching 13% of their population. In Ireland It's said 10% of the population exhibit redhead feature although nearly 40% of their population carries the gene. The percentages should vary depending on how certain hair color shades such as strawberry blond and auburn/reddish-brown are included/excluded of the red haired pool.
Strawberry blonde haired people are extremely rare, however if reddish brown haired people were included in the figure, I think the percentage would be much higher than 10% for Ireland. Someone like Scottish actor James McAvoy for instance:


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Or American actress Kristen Stewart:


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Edited by Berserk, Oct 28 2011, 12:52 AM.
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Trog
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The article insinuates that lots of Irish people are dying their hair since their genes don't match up with the visual accounts. So, people with the genes for red hair are walking around Ireland that don't have red hair, because they're dying it blonde, brown, or black. The 30% figure seems reasonable if you look at Irish children since hair dying is a practice of adults:


My family is exactly like this. Most have dark brown hair and have brown eyes, including myself. Yet 23andme noted the 'ginger gene' in me. The figure of 30% is not reasonable from my experience of actually having been to Ireland many times and having family in Ireland, and I say this knowing that I have a red-haired nephew. Punching "red haired Irish kids" into google simply doesn't cut it with me. Did you happen to notice some of those kids in your selection were from Canada?


Quote:
 
I didn't say that red hair came from the Germanics. I said that the original population of Briton and Ireland most likely had a high frequency of red haired people but that they wouldn't have looked Nordish like Nicole Kidman.


Who can say?



Quote:
 
Lindsay Lohan, who is a redhead, has a dark haired sister:



Not sure if she's all Irish though, so she doesn't count.

PS and there's no way I would ever consider James McAvoy or Kirsten Stewart of being red heads.
HoboWithAShotGun
Oct 27 2011, 11:58 PM
If not Ireland, than which countries do the sight of red hair seem common to you ? Romania ? Albania ? Armenia ?
You need to work on your reading comprehension. Red hair isn't common in any country. It is a more noticeable minority in Ireland and the UK, but it still remains exactly that, a minority. So fucking stop trying to get smart with me, Homowithashotcunt.
Berserk
Oct 28 2011, 12:50 AM

Bender
Oct 28 2011, 12:46 AM
I recall reading scotland is the most redhead place reaching 13% of their population. In Ireland It's said 10% of the population exhibit redhead feature although nearly 40% of their population carries the gene. The percentages should vary depending on how certain hair color shades such as strawberry blond and auburn/reddish-brown are included/excluded of the red haired pool.


Yes, thank you Mr Wikipedia.

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Strawberry blonde haired people are extremely rare, however if reddish brown haired people were included in the figure, I think the percentage would be much higher than 10% for Ireland. Someone like Scottish actor James McAvoy for instance:


I don't see a reddish cast at all to him or Kirsten Stewart.

Edited by Trog, Oct 28 2011, 01:09 AM.
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Mjora
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Udmurts:
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This is Udmurtia's location:
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thanks Mjora. interesanting finding :)
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Trog
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You could show me brunettes from Russia and then from Wales and I'm 99% certain the differences will be obvious;similar results if it were of blonde examples. But red heads seem the same no matter if it's the far east, or far west of Europe.
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Bender
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Oct 28 2011, 12:50 AM
Bender
Oct 28 2011, 12:46 AM
I recall reading scotland is the most redhead place reaching 13% of their population. In Ireland It's said 10% of the population exhibit redhead feature although nearly 40% of their population carries the gene. The percentages should vary depending on how certain hair color shades such as strawberry blond and auburn/reddish-brown are included/excluded of the red haired pool.
Strawberry blonde haired people are extremely rare, however if reddish brown haired people were included in the figure, I think the percentage would be much higher than 10% for Ireland. Someone like Scottish actor James McAvoy for instance:


Posted Image Posted Image


Or American actress Kristen Stewart:


Posted Image Posted Image
His hair simply doesnt look reddish brown to me, but more dark brown with some medium/redish hues, yet not really a proper example of redish brown.
Edited by Bender, Oct 28 2011, 01:40 AM.
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Mjora
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mneserb
Oct 28 2011, 01:26 AM
thanks Mjora. interesanting finding :)
You're welcome dear ;)
I guess most people on Anthrofora knows them(red headed udmurts)
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HoboWithAShotGun
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You need to work on your reading comprehension. Red hair isn't common in any country. It is a more noticeable minority in Ireland and the UK, but it still remains exactly that, a minority. So fucking stop trying to get smart with me, Homowithashotcunt.


Redheads are very common in the U.K and Ireland compared to the rest of the world, especially when you consider that in the vast majority of countries in the world the percentage of natural redheads is well below 1%.

So if you are from a country where natural redheads make up less than 1% of the population, and you step foot in Scotland for example, you are going to think that country has a lot of redheads. In most countries in the world you can go days, weeks, or even years without seeing a natural redhead in person. That is not the case with the U.K and Ireland.
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Those aren't frequencies of red hair. They're frequencies of genes for red hair. Not the same thing.

Red(dish) hair runs ~5% in Scotland and Wales, and ~9% in Ireland.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X3.htm
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X2.htm
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The press article is mostly stereotypical sensationalism in nature, apparently trying to attach red hair to the archaic human migration and probably ultimately an old idea of an English national type which is popularly known for redheads. Even Gorilla's have red hair on top of their heads and the rest of their hair is black along with their skins. Anyway the article is saying 100,000+ years ago "modern humans" were dark due to living in Africa but by 50-60,000 years ago red hair and fair skin developed out've mutation to cope with the lack of sun and colder gloomier weather in a place like prehistoric Britain or Northern Britain. And the idea that 5-9% of Britain(mainly Irish and Welsh) is the true British" type due to having red hair, slim figures and fair skins which blister when sun exposed that is pretty preposterous but if that is what they want to believe, it is their thing. Red Heads arent of one phenotype as there is no red haired phenotypes.

Archaic humans werent particularly slim and Coon's red haired irish are noted for being stocky not slim. Neanderthals not at all slim while anatomically modern humans were slim but whatever that means .

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Anatomically, modern humans can generally be characterized by the lighter build of their skeletons compared to earlier humans. Modern humans have very large brains, which vary in size from population to population and between males and females, but the average size is approximately 1300 cubic centimeters. Housing this big brain involved the reorganization of the skull into what is thought of as "modern" -- a thin-walled, high vaulted skull with a flat and near vertical forehead. Modern human faces also show much less (if any) of the heavy brow ridges and prognathism of other early humans. Our jaws are also less heavily developed, with smaller teeth.

Scientists sometimes use the term “anatomically modern Homo sapiens” to refer to members of our own species who lived during prehistoric times.


http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-sapiens


Irish are overwhelmingly brown/dark brown haired and there is more Black hair in Scotland then there is in red:

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In Scotland, the systematic study of 7000 adult males and of half a million schoolchildren makes our knowledge of the regional distribution of hair color relatively complete. Black hair ranges among adults from 0 to 8 per cent by counties, but nowhere attains the figures observed in Cornwall, Devonshire, and Wales. Dark brown hair accounts for 38 per cent of the population; the medium to light brown shade, with 42 per cent, is the most numerous; fair hair runs to 11 per cent, and red to 5 per cent.


Same for Wales:

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In Wales, 10 per cent of the total have black hair, and only 8 per cent are fair in the English sense. Dark brown predominates over medium brown, while red, which averages 5 per cent, runs as high as 9 per cent in small localities. Beddoe finds as much as 86 to 89 per cent of black and dark brown hair in such places as Newquay and Denbighshire Upland. On the whole, Wales, in accordance with its mountainous character and its general preservation of ancient cultural traits, is a region of strong local variability, which manifests itself particularly in pigmentation.



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The hair color of the Irish is predominantly brown; black hair accounts for less than 3 per cent of the total, while the ashen series (Fischer #20-26) amounts to but one-half of one per cent. Forty per cent have dark brown hair (Fischer #4-5); 35 per cent have medium brown (Fischer #7-9); reddish brown hues total over 5 per cent (closest to Fischer #6, #10), while clear reds (Fischer #1-3) run higher than 4 per cent. The rest, some 15 per cent, fall into a light brown to golden blond category (Fischer #11-19). Thus the hair color of the Irish is darker than that of most regions of Scandinavia, but not much darker than Iceland; it is notably different from Nordic hair, as exemplified by eastern Norwegians and Swedes, in its almost total lack of ash-blondism. The rufous hair color pigment reaches a world maximum here; not so much in reds as in the prevalance of golden hues in blond and brown shades. The lightest hair is found in the Aran Islands, where the commonest shade is, nevertheless, medium brown; in the southwestern counties there are more goldens and at the same time more dark-browns than in Ireland as a whole, while the Great Plain runs fairest of all. Red hair, with a regional maximum of 8 per cent, is commonest in Ulster, rarest in Waterford and Wexford.


And the description for the old minority UP(which to Coon back then a Neanderthaloid) of lore is actually of a very broad featured type not a Nicole Kidman or Prince Harry:

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By means of this study it is possible to reconstruct with some probability the living appearance of the Upper Palaeolithic men. They were typically tall, broad-shouldered, large-chested; their heads were large, their browridges heavy to medium; their foreheads broad and high; their faces were broad and slightly flattish, the mouth large, with lips of moderated thickness and little eversion, the lines around the mouth deeply drawn, the whole lower jaw wide and deep, with a prominent chin. The nose was of moderate to large size, straight to concave-profiled, with a moderately thick, upturned tip. The hair was brown and wavy, frequently rufous, of medium abundance on beard and body; the eyes light-mixed blue. The skin was typically inclined to freckling, and very fair.


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Variations in human hair make some sense in terms of what we have just learned. The concentration of reddish and dark hair in the foggiest, rainiest parts of Western Europe follows Gloger's rule, as explained in the section on skin color. Blond hair in general and in particular that kind of blond hair which lacks red-pigment cells, reflects 32 % of light at 7000 angstrom wave length, compared to 18% reflected by light-brown, 15% by reddish-brown, 12 % by red-hair, 8% by dark red, and 1% by black hair.


Persons with straight or wavy blond hair have no other substantial protection against the sun's rays to compare with the air chambers trapped in individual Mongoloid hairs and the collective mats of Negroid hair, In Europe the zone of blond hair reaches far eastward from the Baltic to the steppes of southern Russia and even beyond in regions of hot summer sun. In Australia blond hair is concentrated in the hottest deserts. The distribution does no violence to Gloger's Rule, which states that populations of a species living in humid regions tend to have black or red hair, or feathers, whereas those living in arid, open country tend to have tawny hair or feathers. In this as in other respects human beings are just as subject to the laws of nature as other animals.



http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2393899/1/#new

Edited by Crimson Guard, Oct 29 2011, 06:22 PM.
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HoboWithAShotGun
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Oct 29 2011, 01:07 PM
Those aren't frequencies of red hair. They're frequencies of genes for red hair. Not the same thing.

Red(dish) hair runs ~5% in Scotland and Wales, and ~9% in Ireland.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X3.htm
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X2.htm
According to this 13% of Scottish people have red hair, not 5%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Modern
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HoboWithAShotGun
Oct 29 2011, 10:30 PM
According to this 13% of Scottish people have red hair, not 5%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Modern

You should check the citation before quoting figures from Wikipedia. It's a BBC article that says "As many as 10% of Scots and Irish people have ginger or strawberry blond hair", which is very vague and also unsourced. Coon's 5% figure for Scotland is based on "the systematic study of 7000 adult males and of half a million schoolchildren".
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Bender
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HoboWithAShotGun
Oct 29 2011, 10:30 PM
Racial Reality
Oct 29 2011, 01:07 PM
Those aren't frequencies of red hair. They're frequencies of genes for red hair. Not the same thing.

Red(dish) hair runs ~5% in Scotland and Wales, and ~9% in Ireland.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X3.htm
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-X2.htm
According to this 13% of Scottish people have red hair, not 5%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Modern
Right, Scotland 13%, Ireland 10%, england 6%. Those are the figures that are commonly found among hair color studies of the UK.
Edited by Bender, Oct 31 2011, 02:11 AM.
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