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Human Bioderversity in Europe; A look at IQ and racial feautures in Europe and its correlates to today's economic vitality
Topic Started: Sep 20 2011, 08:49 PM (14,658 Views)
JayMan
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Hi everyone. I'm a brand new poster here and I'm obviously someone very interested in HBD. I'll be posting a lot here, and to start, here's something that I recently posted on another forum, one that didn't contain that many people versed on human evolution. I didn't read through all of the posts on this board, so forgive me if some of this strikes you guys as old news. Here I go:

Here is a map I drew graphing the differences in average IQ for the different European nations:

Posted Image
(clickable)

The color codes represent national IQs, rounded up. I split the UK, Spain, and Italy into their constituent regions to show the important regional diversity in those countries. I drew most of these values from Richard Lynn's and Tatu Vanhanen's works, as well as these sources: Lynn, 2010a, Lynn, 2010b, IQ cline in Spain and Italy, IQ vs. Religiosity. Still, some of these are estimates (L & V's).

But the thing that becomes obvious is that—despite a few oddball outliers (e.g., Lithuania, Slovenia)—most of these follow the lines of the major ethnic groups in Europe. Overall, the Germanic groups (English, Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians, Austrians, Swiss) do the best, all with average IQs upwards of 100. Next are the North Slavs (Russians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Belarusians, Ukrainians), who all have average IQs around 98. The Uralic groups (Finns, Hungarians, and Estonians)—originally from North Asia—also do well, as well as the Germans and Slavs, but they possess some Asian ancestry (something that is rather obvious when one looks at the Hungarian facial averages below).

Poorer showing are the Mediterranean countries, as evidenced by the poor scores of Portugal, southern Spain, southern Italy (with Sicily averaging an IQ of 90) and Greece. The Balkan region, populated by South Slavs, also fares poorly, but population genetics has shown these people are intermixed between the relatively new coming Slavs and the original Mediterranean peoples (mostly Dinaric). And finally, the Celts: the Irish, Scots and Welsh—also fare relatively poorly (except the Welsh), with Ireland averaging 92, and Scotland coming in at about 96.

France, with it's very mixed history, of Celtic (the ancient Gauls), Mediterranean, and Germanic heritage comes in with an average IQ of 98.

The decline in IQ in Spain and Italy can be explained by racial differences in the population; the northern parts of both countries contain a more Germanic stock, whereas the southern parts are more Mediterranean in origin. That the various European groups are separable into these ethnic subtypes becomes visible when you look at these facial averages (from The Postnational Monitor):

Germanics:

English, Dutch, German, Austrian, Swiss, Swedish
Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image


Celts:

Irish, Welsh
Posted ImagePosted Image Posted Image

North Slavs:

Russian, Polish, Czech, Ukrainian
Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image

Baltic:

Lithuanian/Latvian composite:
Posted Image


Uralic:

Finn, Hungarian
Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image

South Slavs:

Serbian
Posted ImagePosted Image

Mediterranean:

Spanish, Italian, Greek
Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted ImagePosted Image

Caucasian:

Posted Image

Other:

Posted Image

The previous two images are from Facial Averages of East Europe

Genetic analyses also confirm these relationships.

With the ongoing fiscal troubles in Europe, this has obvious implications. Here's a breakdown of the unemployment rates, as current as I could find them, in the various European countries, grouped by ethnic family, derived from Eurostat, and retrieved from the Google Public Data Explorer, except where otherwise noted. Nothing saying that these numbers are truly comparable from country to country, but it's still interesting to see:

Denmark: 7.1%
Sweden: 7.4%
Norway: 3.3%
Germany: 6.1%
Austria: 3.7%
Luxembourg: 4.6%
Netherlands: 4.3%
England: 7.8%

Lithuania: 15.6%
Latvia: 16.2%

Poland: 9.4%
Czech Republic: 6.4%
Slovakia: 8.4%
Russia: 6.5%
Ukraine: 9.5%
Slovenia: 8.4%
Croatia: 14.7%

Finland: 7.9%
Estonia: 12.8%
Hungary: 9.7%

Ireland: 14.5%
Scotland: 8.1%
Wales: 8.4%

Belgium: 7.5%
France: 9.9%

Spain: 21.2%
Italy: 8%
Greece: 15%
Portugal: 12.3%

Georgia: 16.9%

Armenia: 6.6%, (7.1%)

Note that the Germanic countries are doing fairly well, way ahead of the struggling Mediterranean countries. The Slavic countries are somewhere in between, despite the fact that all have fairly recently adopted market economies. In short, the productivity of Southern Europe lags behind that of the North, and as the IQ data demonstrates, this problem is to an extent intractable.

Some of these groups are very interesting; the Baltic region seems to be important for one reason: this appears to be the source of blue eyes. The Balts are the most blue-eyed people in the world, and the trait spread from there to much of Europe and as far east as Afghanistan it seems. This may have taken place during the barbarian invasions of Rome, as Baltic groups may have hitched a ride with German tribes, possibly the Vandals.

In appearance they appear to be intermediate to Germanic and Slavic groups, as is obvious as seen here going from Swedish, Lithuanian/Latvian, Russian:

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

The IQ for the Baltic region is somewhat problematic. No values are available for Latvia, only estimates, so I went with Lynn's & Vanhannen's estimates, of 97. L&V originally estimated Lithuania's IQ to be also 97, however in their second book, this was revised all the way down to 91. One paper I found reported a value of 90 based on a 1999 sample of 259 8- to 12-year olds, agreeing with L&V's numbers.

Also, the unemployment data for the Baltic states (Lithuania: 15.6%, Latvia: 16.2%) does support the notion that these countries have slightly lower average IQ's than the countries that surround them. Why the Balts would stand out among the other European groups when much of their histories was shared with them is not clear. Newer measurements are needed (an online IQ test seems to yield values of 97 for the capital cities of both countries).

The Georgians appear to be the descended from the original inhabitants of the Caucasus. In appearance they seem to be similar to the Northern/Western European groups, and who knows, as the Caucasus is commonly considered to be the origin of Europeans (hence the term "Caucasian" and "Caucasoid"), perhaps this is because peoples from this area went on to populate the rest of Europe.
I could find no IQ data for Georgia, so I stuck with L&V's estimate of 94.

The Armenians appear to be their own people, an Indo-European group distinct from all other Indo-Europeans (like the Albanians), but who seem to have genetic and linguistic ties with the Greeks (as is obvious here). That Kim Kardashian is Armenian is obvious looking here:
Posted Image

The Armenians seem to have a reputation internationally similar to the Ashkenazi Jews, that is, as talented middle men. And indeed, it seems historically they have occupied that role. I could find no good IQ data for Armenia, only a reference (in the comments) that states that studies have shown that the IQ of Armenians in Armenia is 94, but of Armenians outside the country it is 107! A prolonged brain drain could have easily produced this result, however, Armenia is also known for a producing disproportionate share of chess champions. It is possible that the country's average IQ is fairly high. Again more study is needed.

Cochran and Harpending argue that the Caucasus was the origin of the original Indo-Europeans, who managed to impose their language and culture across Europe and Asia as far east as Northern India. C&H propose they were able to do this because they were the first true milk-drinkers—the first group to develop lactose tolerance. This gave them a competitive advantage that they used to impose their ways on the people they conquered. The Ossetians who live in the Caucasus are proposed to be their descendents.

Part of this exercise is to understand the origin of these differences. In lieu of The 10,000 Year Explosion, many ethnic and racial differences evolved recently, since the advent of agriculture. Indeed, it was the Greeks, and later the Romans (via the Etruscans), who were the first Europeans to embrace civilization, yet it seems it was the Germans and the Slavs—who embraced civilization later—who came to dominate Europe, especially since the fall of Rome. (The Balkan peoples, who remained continuously in civilization under the Byzantine and later the Ottoman Empire seems to have fallen short today.) But why? One could argue, in the vein that Harpending and Cochran would, that the Germans and the Slavs initially were not well adapted to civilization because after they arrived Europe was plunged into a Dark Age from which it didn't fully emerge until the Renaissance nearly 1000 years later. Perhaps the Germans possessed certain traits that, once shaped by civilization's pacifying influence, allowed them to dominate European history. These are interesting questions for research, now that we know that genes are inextricably linked to historical events.
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Giray
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why should i believe this map? its obviously made by racist/nordicist researchers. so kazakhs have lower iq than russians hah? and iranians are stupid?
this map trying to say "if you are not blonde, than you are stupid" >:(
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Dutch Feline
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Sep 20 2011, 09:01 PM
why should i believe this map? its obviously made by racist/nordicist researchers. so kazakhs have lower iq than russians hah? and iranians are stupid?
this map trying to say "if you are not blonde, than you are stupid" >:(
This map is not like you say so. Its got nothing to do with pigmentation, it seems to be that Europeans (of all creeds) have highers IQs than neighbours of non europeaness. Thats what the map says anyways.
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JayMan
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I'm simply reporting the data as I found it. For certain countries, the IQ values are estimates. Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan's values are estimates according to L&V (I didn't even have them filled in initially). I suspect the true value is higher, considering their Central Asian heritage.

That said, national average IQ is highly correlated with national development economically, even within countries, as this chart I forgot to include of the historical unemployment in Italy demonstrates:

Posted Image

Notice the abysmal numbers in the South (Mezzogiorno).

Of course, I assume that it's understood on this forum that these are averages; there are smart AND dumb individuals in every ethnic group, just not in equal proportions in every group.
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Cava
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This have been discussed
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Crimson Guard
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Quote:
 
The decline in IQ in Spain and Italy can be explained by racial differences in the population; the northern parts of both countries contain a more Germanic stock, whereas the southern parts are more Mediterranean in origin. That the various European groups are separable into these ethnic subtypes becomes visible when you look at these facial averages (from The Postnational Monitor):


That map and conclusions are junk really, the quasi-Nordicist/Germanicist spin is equally junk. That"Germanic stock" crap is nonsense and played out. These topics have appeared before. Your post's data appears to be from Richard Lynn whom is not a good source and primarily plucked from the PISA scores of adolescents which is not a good indicator of intelligence, we dont know the actual regional intelligence difference but from the information we have from Italy, the differences are very negligible in actuality.

Lynn made up the average IQ scores primarily based on the PISA for southern Italy which he said was in the 89-92 range, both Lithuania(the mean between 90-92)and Ireland ( a figure of 93) in his national averages in his books "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" and "Race differences in intelligence: an evolutionary analysis".

Richard Lynn
 
Apart from the lower IQs in the Balkans, there are three other countries with IQs somewhat lower than the European average. The first is Lithuania, with an IQ of 90-92. These low figures may be sampling errors because they are rather lower than in neighboring Russia (97), Poland (99), and Estonia (99). The second is Ireland, for which the mean IQ of the four studies is 92


Posted Image

And even according to Lynn's crazy IQ estimates, they dont show dramatic wide gap between Northern and Southern Europe(or northern and southern Italy):

Posted Image

His work on Italy has been thoroughly refuted:

More Criticism of Richard Lynn

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-criticism-of-richard-lynn.html


Richard Lynn Further Refuted

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

Refuting Richard Lynn's Italian "IQ" Study

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/refuting-richard-lynns-italian-iq-study.html

Italian Facial Composites:

Soccer Player Facial Composites

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2011/07/soccer-player-facial-composites.html

Northern and Southern Facial Composites

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/northern-and-southern-facial-composites.html


European Population Structure:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/920185/1/#new

Italian Genetics:

http://racialreality.110mb.com/italians.html

http://racialreality.110mb.com/sicily/


And the only actual legit IQ of nations was conducted by Buj back in the 1980's:

Posted Image

Furthermore:

Southern Italy's Economy Underestimated

http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/09/southern-italys-economy-underestimated.html
Edited by Crimson Guard, Sep 20 2011, 11:18 PM.
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GenoMann
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Sep 20 2011, 09:01 PM
why should i believe this map? its obviously made by racist/nordicist researchers. so kazakhs have lower iq than russians hah? and iranians are stupid?
this map trying to say "if you are not blonde, than you are stupid" >:(
The map does seem show darker where resistance to an invasion of Europe stopped.
Thomas Mann
 
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.lin
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JayMan
Sep 20 2011, 08:49 PM
Also, the unemployment data for the Baltic states (Lithuania: 15.6%, Latvia: 16.2%) does support the notion that these countries have slightly lower average IQ's than the countries that surround them.
No, it does not support that notion. Anyone who is familiar with the situation in the Baltic states knows that unemployment stats are rather irrelevant because they do not reflect the real situation - the reason for this is a huge amount of people like me who have emigrated to other countries but simply did not bother to officially declare that they have done so and are thus included in the "unemployed" number in the official stats.
GenoMann
Sep 21 2011, 04:49 PM
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Sep 20 2011, 09:01 PM
why should i believe this map? its obviously made by racist/nordicist researchers. so kazakhs have lower iq than russians hah? and iranians are stupid?
this map trying to say "if you are not blonde, than you are stupid" >:(
The map does seem show darker where resistance to an invasion of Europe stopped.
No it does not seem to show that. See the Baltic states again.
Edited by .lin, Sep 21 2011, 09:59 PM.
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Vukodav
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this map is stupid. when I saw last results on the news, Slovenians were 1st and Serbians 3rd. I will try to find that results
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Dutch Feline
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IQ results differ per study. One study one group is top, second study group one are only mid tier.
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People who try to connect intelligence with genes and not with other factors that define it are stupid.
People want authenticity — to live in a way that’s in
tune with the truth of who they are as human beings and the world
they live in.

You dont get anything worth getting by pretending you know things you actually dont know anything about.(i.e. religions)
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JayMan
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Hi Crimson, I've read some of your posts here, glad to finally talk to you. :)

In the spirit of full disclosure, let me point out that I am not by any stretch a "Nordicist" or anything like that. And while I do have some Germanic ancestry, believe me, any "Nordicist supremacist" or anyone of the sort wouldn't want me…

My interest is entirely scientific; I believe what the facts compel me to believe, whatever that happens to be.

To begin, I must ask if we can please not play the ad hominem/appeal to authority game? All that matters is WHAT the data says, not WHO says it (or for that matter—for the most part—what they think about what their data says).

I've read the things you've pointed me to, and boy was that a lot, as evidenced by the very long delay for me to reply. :) Very little of the criticism of Lynn's claim really seems to refute the general point that there is an IQ decline in Italy from north to south. Indeed, a good chunk of it appears to be much of the old tired race and/or IQ denial arguments, which I'll return to. If I missed an important fact, I'm sure you'll point it out to me. :)

Much of the most legitimate criticism—at best—amounts to relatively minor errors here and there on Lynn's part, not the wholesale manipulation of data on the level of say Stephen J. Gould. And a lot of it is to be expected of anyone making claims as controversial as Lynn is.

As Lynn points out, and as Charles Murray agrees here, scholastic achievement tests like the PISA and the SAT are basically forms of IQ tests, highly correlated to g. But, there is the issue of motivation; we never know if students are performing their hardest on the test. So while it's probably unlikely a test like the PISA will overestimate a student's IQ, it is entirely possible it can underestimate it. But that's not likely to be happening here, as we'll see.

A key thing that has been missing in all the discussion and the so called "refutation" of Lynn is this paper. Within which, Lynn presents three lines of data of the decline in IQ in Italy from north to south. Sorry I don't have a free link, I've been looking and will continue to see if I can find one.

Here are the results of different IQ tests with samples drawn from different parts of the country, as copied from said paper:

Regional IQs in Italy


Location

N

Age

Test

IQ

Reference



Florence

2462

11–16

SPM

103

Tesi, G., & Young, B. H. (1962). A standardisation of Raven's Progressive
Matrices. Archive di Psicologia Neurologia e Psichiatrica, 5, 455−464.



Pisa

500

6–11

CPM

103

Prunetti, C. (1985). Dati normativi del test P.M. 47 Coloured su un campione
di bambini italiani. Bolletino di Psicologia Applicata, 176, 27−35.



Pisa

459

7–11

CPM

99

Prunetti, C., Fenu, A., Freschi, G., & Rota, S. (1996). Aggiornamento della
standardizzazione italiana del test delle Matrici Progressive Colorate del
Raven. Bolletino di Psicologia Applicata, 217, 51−57.



Genoa

600

6–11

CPM

95

Galeazzi, A., Castelli, G., & Saccomani, M. V. (1979). Contributo alla taratura
delle PM47 per soggetti in eta dai 4 agli 11 anni. Bolletino di Psicologia
Applicata, 152, 79−91.



Rome

1350

Adults

CCF

102

Buj, V. (1981). Average IQ values in various European countries. Personality
and Individual Differences, 2, 168−169.



Sicily

5370

18

CCF

90

Pace, F., & Sprini, G. (1998). A proposito della “fairness” del Culture Fair di
Cattell. Bollettino di Psicologia Applicata, 227, 77−85.



Note: SPM: Standard Progressive Matrices; CPM: Coloured Progressive
Matrices; CCF: Cattell Culture Fair.

Regional IQs in Italy from internet source and PISA


Region

IQ-Internet

IQ-PISA



Trentino

102.2

101



Friuli-Venezia

104.5

103



Veneto

102.2

101



Lombardy

101.1

100



Piedmont

97.4

100



Emilia Romagna

99.8

100



Liguria

96.7

97



Tuscany

98.8

-



Marche

103.0

-



Umbria

98.4

-



Lazio

97.3

-



Abruzzo

98.9

92



Molise

96.7

-



Puglia

95.5

91



Campania

92.6

92



Basilicata

97.8

92



Calabria

93.1

-



Sardinia

93.5

90



Sicily

91.8

89




The data speaks for itself. None of this data was collected by Lynn himself, so it's not like he could have fudged the data. As you see, an actual IQ test done on adults found that the average IQ in Sicily is 90. This is the same type of test that Buj used to find an average IQ of 102 from his Roman sample. These data are in good agreement with each other. The convergence of data from three different lines demonstrates that the pattern is real.

It's worth mentioning that background, education level, and socioeconomic status cannot be used correct for IQ differences, as Lynn put it:
Quote:
 
CBGMT argue that the north–south differences in the PISA data are reduced “when one corrects for family and background variables” such as family incomes and school variables such as financial resources, teacher tenures, and tracking”. They conclude that “correcting for family and context background removes a sizable part of the postulated genetic differences between regional groups.” This correction for family background, SES, and other variables is known as “the sociologists' fallacy” identified some forty years ago by [Jensen, A. R. (1973). Educability and group differences. London: Methuen]. As Jensen observed “SES classification is more a result than a cause of IQ variance”. The fallacy of the method is that the SES, earnings, etc. of the family are themselves products of the families' IQs, which determine the IQs of the children.

The economic vitality of a region is affected by the IQ of its inhabitants in a type of positive feedback loop: higher IQ populations establish more industries, create more opportunity for wealth creation through higher-wage work (which leads to increased consumer demand), create a larger tax base, which leads to more funding for social programs like education and health care; which only serves to sustain development providing more opportunities for higher-IQ children. The trend operates similarly—though in the opposite direction—for lower IQ groups. Fewer industries, less highly paid work, fewer social services, poorer education, poorer health, and fewer opportunities. This is a huge part of the disparate levels of economic development between the First and Third Worlds.

It's also worth mentioning that in addition to differences in IQ, other psychological factors almost certainly contribute to the economic development of different areas. One of the biggest one of those is work ethic. Some groups are more inclined to work hard than others, which evolved in response to the advent of agriculture, as described by Cochran & Harpending. Modern industrial society overwhelmingly favors harder workers. No doubt a level of this plays a role in economic productivity across world, if not necessarily here (though it may).

And to this issue of economic development in Italy, and that the south possesses an "underground" economy, even if it is a robust one, doesn't serve to indicate that do not have lower IQ's. As "Silver" pointed out here, the economy is apparently lacking of cognitively demanding occupations. And indeed, an underground economy is consistent with the stereotype of southern Italians as "mobsters" and the like. But a collection of shady/illegal activities and off-the-books businesses is much what you expect if the population was lacking in a "cognitive elite" as well as individuals that are not necessarily as inclined to engage in "legitimate" work, which tends to happen when you look at lower IQ groups. At the very least, this doesn’t prove anything either way, but is consistent with the notion that there is a lower average IQ in the south.

I don't believe Richard Lynn's claim that IQ's in southern Italy are lower because the population is more intermixed with North Africans, as genetic tests clearly show otherwise (at least recently, anyway). But, that said, there is nothing saying that non-European admixture is necessary to lower the average IQ of a European population, as Ireland and Scotland, as possibly Lithuania, demonstrate.

Really, as we don't know when modern levels of IQ evolved, the whole notion of admixture really is a red herring. Indeed, as Cochran and Harpending point out, much the increase towards modern IQ levels could have—and probably did—happen fairly recently. The claim that certain populations have certain IQs today is independent from any claim on how such IQ levels evolved. The former does not depend on the latter, and refuting any claim about the latter has nothing to do with the validity of the former.

I wouldn't be surprised if the source of at least some of the decline in IQ in Italy as you go south is due to a northward "brain drain." No doubt that has played a role, and at the very least probably had widened an existing gap, if it didn't cause it.

The facial composites of Italy were interesting. Obviously, the models and the statesmen are select groups and are unlikely to be representative of the population. The soccer players however are more likely to be more representative. I find it interesting, because we are aware anecdotally of physical differences between northern and southern Italians. It'll be interesting to look at in more depth. In any case however, it is still tangential to whether or not there is an IQ cline in the country; it does suggest that perhaps a northward brain drain is the primary source of the IQ cline.

What strikes me as interesting in much of discussion against Lynn's claim about southern Italy is that, while I assume most people here accept differences in average IQ between "major" races, the validity of IQ as a stable mental trait with strong predictive ability, and that IQ is something that IQ tests measure reasonably accurately—especially in adulthood, when these methods are used to look at differences within the "major" races, all the same tired old IQ denial arguments are rehashed in order to refute it.

I will concede that it doesn't appear that Lynn is the most meticulously paranoid of researchers, as he ought to be considering the controversial nature of his claims. But that doesn't invalidate the observations he makes, especially in the face the evidence.
Edited by JayMan, Sep 22 2011, 08:06 PM.
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PPBB
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The rather large IQ differences between Italian regions should be ascribed to environmental factors, due to the fact that, as far as I know, genetic differences within Italy are slight. If I'm not mistaken, Finland's IQ was ver low a few decades ago, when most of the Finns were peasants, while now it is very high. Food and education, not genes, are the cause.
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Why are only Italy and Spain divided in subregions?

Because, in the case of Germany, it is well known that the southern most regions, Bavaria and Swabia, have far better results in PISA tests etc. than the northern regions.
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JayMan
Sep 22 2011, 05:02 PM
scholastic achievement tests like the PISA and the SAT are basically forms of IQ tests, highly correlated to g

Incorrect.

[blockquote]"Whereas the correlations indicate that around 50% to 60% of the variance in GCSE examination points score can be statistically explained by the prior g factor, by the same token a large proportion of the variance is not accounted for by g. Some of the remaining variance in GCSE scores will be measurement error, but some will be systematic. Thus, non-g factors have a substantial impact on educational attainment. These may include: school attendance and engagement; pupils' personality traits, motivation and effort; the extent of parental support; and the provision of appropriate learning experiences, teaching quality, school ethos, and structure among other possible factors (Petrides, Chamorro-Premuzic, Frederickson, & Furnham, 2005; Strand, 2003)."

http://www.elsevier.com/authored_subject_sections/S05/S05_357/top/intel.pdf

"Working with data from the PISA study (OECD, 2007), Lynn (2010) has argued that individuals from South Italy average an IQ approximately 10 points lower than individuals from North Italy, and has gone on to put forward a series of conclusions on the relationship between average IQ, latitude, average stature, income, etc. The present paper criticizes these conclusions and the robustness of the data from which Lynn (2010) derived the IQ scores. In particular, on the basis of recent Italian studies and our databank, we observe that : 1) school measures should be used for deriving IQ indices only in cases where contextual variables are not crucial: there is evidence that partialling out the role of contextual variables may lead to reduction or even elimination of PISA differences; in particular, schooling effects are shown through different sets of data obtained for younger grades; 2) in the case of South Italy, the PISA data may have exaggerated the differences, since data obtained with tasks similar to the PISA tasks (MT-advanced) show smaller differences; 3) national official data, obtained by INVALSI (2009a) on large numbers of primary school children, support these conclusions, suggesting that schooling may have a critical role; 4) purer measures of IQ obtained during the standardisation of Raven's Progressive Coloured Matrices also show no significant differences in IQ between children from South and North Italy."

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2010.07.001

"The first argument put forward by Lynn is that IQs in Italy are higher in the North than in the South. The problem with this statement is that, in most of his study, the author does not use a direct measure of IQ but a proxy, namely results in the PISA tests. It is true that a high correlation between PISA scores and the results of IQ tests has been reported (Rindermann, 2007). However, there are a number of factors which may affect the different performance of students in the PISA tests and which may have nothing to do with IQ. A first possible factor is school quality. There is a well-established literature dealing with regional differences in school quality in Italy, one which the author does not cite and seems to be unfamiliar with. The work by Checchi and Jappelli (2004), for instance, reports a quality score of public schools by regions in 1993 (both as perceived by parents and as measured by indicators of school resources). Table 1 clearly indicates the presence of a North-South gradient, with Campania, Apulia, and Sicily at the bottom. There is no doubt that differences in PISA scores are not just caused by school quality. The influential report by Coleman (1966) shows the presence of a strong correlation between family and social backgrounds and schools' performance. Yet, once again, this has nothing to do with racial differences in intelligence: in the case of Italy, the different results in the PISA scores may be due to different socio-economic conditions, not to regional differences in IQ.

"Firstly, Lynn makes an incorrect use of proxy variables. The correlation between an unmeasured variable (in this case, IQ) and its proxy (results in PISA tests) is a necessary condition for the validity of a proxy, not a sufficient one. For the proxy to measure the effect of the variable it is replacing on another variable, it must also be the case that the proxy used is uncorrelated with other unobserved variables in the original regression equation. In this case, Lynn is trying to explain the variation in income and other variables using IQ. However, there are variables, such as school quality or socio-economic conditions, which affect income but are not included in Lynn's model. When Lynn replaces the variable 'IQ', with the proxy 'results in the PISA test', for the proxy to be valid, it should be the case that results in the PISA tests are not correlated with these other indicators. However, as shown in Table 1 for the case of school quality, the correlation between PISA scores and income may be due to the fact that both variables are correlated with school quality and socio-economic conditions, not to the fact that they are both correlated with IQ."


http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2010.09.004 [/blockquote]
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None of this data was collected by Lynn himself, so it's not like he could have fudged the data.

You must be joking.

[blockquote]"The majority of studies on IQ test performance of Africans not taken into account by Lynn (and Vanhanen) and Malloy showed considerably higher average IQs than the studies that they did review. We judge the reviews of Lynn (and Vanhanen) and Malloy to be unsystematic. These authors missed a large part of the literature on IQ testing in Africa, failed to explicate their inclusion and exclusion criteria, and made downward errors in the conversion of raw scores to IQs (Wicherts, 2007)."

[...]

"We argue that their review of the literature is unsystematic, as it involves the inconsistent use of rules to determine the representativeness and hence selection of samples. [...] We found that Lynn and Meisenberg's assessment of the samples' representativeness is not associated with any of the objective sampling characteristics, but rather with the average IQ in the sample. This suggests that Lynn and Meisenberg excluded samples of Africans who average IQs above 75 because they deemed these samples unrepresentative on the basis of the samples' relatively high IQs. We conclude that Lynn and Meisenberg's unsystematic methods are questionable and their results untrustworthy."


http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2011/08/devastating-criticism-of-richard-lynn.html [/blockquote]
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"The fallacy of the method is that the SES, earnings, etc. of the family are themselves products of the families' IQs, which determine the IQs of the children."

Lynn is the one committing a fallacy.

[blockquote]"As stated at the outset, the aim of this analysis is not to demonstrate that IQ in Southern Italy is the same or higher than that in the North. On the other hand, a simple statistical exercise, based on correlations among variables, such as that by Lynn, is far from conclusive. Recent studies have shown a significant statistical relationship (p-value = 0.008) between the presence of storks in the European continent and the birth rate (Matthews, 2000); an association which seems particularly remarkable in the case of Germany (Höfer et al. 2004). We know how hard it is to explain causality by means of statistical exercises and certainly causal relationships are not captured by simple statistical correlations."

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.socec.2011.08.017 [/blockquote]
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That said, national average IQ is highly correlated with national development economically, even within countries [...] Notice the abysmal numbers in the South (Mezzogiorno).

Same fallacy as above, and in fact refuted by history.

[blockquote]"In the past, the Southern Italian economy has at times been more advanced than the Northern one; for example during both the Roman antiquity and the high Middle Ages. Perhaps the North and the Centre were more advanced than the South in the late Middle Ages; although nothing certain can be said on the matter. The following decline of the Italian economy as a whole, from the late Middle Ages until the end of the 19th century, probably cancelled the existing economic differences. When per capita GDP diminishes and approaches the level of bare subsistence, differences among regions disappear. In the 19th century, Italy was a relatively backward country both in the North and the South. The statistical material available from the end of the 19th century onwards, does not actually indicate a deep North-South divide, in economic terms. The start of modern growth from then on affected the North much more than the South and economic disparity began to exist between the two parts of the country."

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.socec.2011.08.017 [/blockquote]
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I wouldn't be surprised if the source of at least some of the decline in IQ in Italy as you go south is due to a northward "brain drain." No doubt that has played a role, and at the very least probably had widened an existing gap, if it didn't cause it.

Finally you say something intelligent.

[blockquote]"Remarkable emigration from the South to the North, especially between 1950 and 1975, increased the North-South diversity since emigration, in Italy as elsewhere, is always selective."

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.socec.2011.08.017 [/blockquote]
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Obviously, the models and the statesmen are select groups and are unlikely to be representative of the population.

You might have a point if we were talking about beauty or tanning, since models are more beautiful than average and statesmen are less tanned. But we're talking about phenotype, and the full range of Italian variation is represented in both demographics.

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I assume most people here accept differences in average IQ between "major" races

If the data is presented by researchers other than Lynn and his gang, then yes. But I reject "biological" explanations. Variation in IQ is best explained by the Flynn Effect.

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The decline in IQ in Spain and Italy can be explained by racial differences in the population; the northern parts of both countries contain a more Germanic stock, whereas the southern parts are more Mediterranean in origin.

[...]

In the spirit of full disclosure, let me point out that I am not by any stretch a "Nordicist" or anything like that.

Suuuuure, we believe you. :rolleyes:


And P.S. The English are mostly of non-Germanic, native British ancestry like the Celts; and Kim Kardashian is only half Armenian, and she resembles her Northern European mother more than she does her Armenian father.
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Gapn
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I'm Germanic and Slavic. Since I'm German and Russian
So according to this I should be SUPER smart. lol NOT!
I'm very bright but I have met Asians who are WAY smarter
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Arch Hades
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Ashkenazi Jews genetically cluster with Southern Europe (especially Southeastern Europe on more detailed analysis) before Central/Northern or Eastern Europe on genome wide association studies...and they have the highest IQs in the world. So I win. :cool:


[blockquote]"Using a genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) panel, we observed population structure in a diverse group of Europeans and European Americans. Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group. Ashkenazi Jewish as well as Sephardic Jewish origin also showed >85% membership in the “southern” population, consistent with a later Mediterranean origin of these ethnic groups. "[/blockquote]

SOURCE : Seldin MF, Shigeta R, Villoslada P, Selmi C, Tuomilehto J, et al. (2006) European Population Substructure: Clustering of Northern and Southern Populations . PLoS Genet 2(9): e143. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0020143

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.0020143


[blockquote]"European population genetic substructure was examined in a diverse set of >1,000 individuals of European descent, each genotyped with >300 K SNPs. Both STRUCTURE and principal component analyses (PCA) showed the largest division/principal component (PC) differentiated northern from southern European ancestry. A second PC further separated Italian, Spanish, and Greek individuals from those of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry as well as distinguishing among northern European populations."[/blockquote]

SOURCE : Citation: Tian C, Plenge RM, Ransom M, Lee A, Villoslada P, et al. (2008) Analysis and Application of European Genetic Substructure Using 300 K SNP Information. PLoS Genet 4(1): e4. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0040004

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.0040004



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Also, I would like to say...Although the difference between Northern and Southern Italian IQ turns out to be much smaller on purer measures of IQ (than what Lynn stated in the one paper of his based on PISA scores)...i think the North Italians still outdue the South Italians on real IQ.

Northern Italians still genetically cluster on genome wide association studies with Southern Europe and not Northern Europe. The Spanish are in fact slightly closer genetically to Northern Europe than the Northern Italians are.



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That said, national average IQ is highly correlated with national development economically, even within countries [...] Notice the abysmal numbers in the South (Mezzogiorno).


I dunno about that now. Or maybe Southern Italians and Greeks are much more intelligent than Slavic, Baltic Europeans and the Chinese????

Here's the GDP of the regions of South Italy compared

Southern Italy (PPP) GDP per capita.

Abruzzo - US$ 28,900
Molise - US$ 26,400
Basilicata - US$ 24,500
Puglia - US$ 22,600
Calabria - US$ 22,400
Campania - US$ 22,400
Sardinia - US$ 26,600
Sicily - US$ 22,400

Greece : US$ 28,434

Baltic and West/East Slavic countries

Slovenia - US$ 28,030
Slovakia- US$ 22,267
Latvia - US$ 14,460
Estonia - US$ 18,518
Lithuania - US$ 18,278
Poland- US$ 18,936
Ukraine - US$ 6,656
Russia - US$ 15,836
Belarus - US$ 13,939

China - US$ 7,518

The discrepancies in nominal GDP are even larger FYI. As South Italy's nominal GDP is hardly bigger than their PPP GDP while for most those other countries it's a lot bigger PPP wise.
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Prioriteringar
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Far East Asia wins either way, so calm down people.
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Henke
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Finnish and Hungarian people are linguistically related, but genetically not that close at all - many other European nations incl.the germanic ones are a lot closer. Please get your facts straight. Finnish people originating genetically from North Asia is not true either, influences from there probably.
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