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Lebanese Maronite ancestry and genetics.
Topic Started: Jul 21 2011, 05:16 AM (7,091 Views)
Infinite_Ammo
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Transhumanist
Jul 24 2011, 04:52 PM
Here we BLOODY go again! Helios. Do not bother with this individual. There is enough AMATEUR DNA data on the various fora for a person of reasonable mind and intelligence to arrive at their own conclusions.
True. It's just quite aggravating that people continue to question the validity of Assyrian identity and such with their remarks, it shows a clear lack of knowledge.

Maronite history: (There are a few inaccuracies I spotted such as what they named certain populations, but that can easily be overlooked). The Maronites were able to resist both the Byzantines and Arabs.

Quote:
 
St. Maron

In the 4th century, a monk called Maron left Antioch for the Orontes River to lead an ascetic way of life. When he died (410 AD) his followers built a monastery in his honour and this became the foundation of the Maronite Church.

Staunchly Chalcedonian, the Maronite monks were persecuted by the Monophysites and after 350 of their monks were slaughtered, the survivors exiled themselves to the mountains of Lebanon.

This Lebanese connection continues today and we see that since the Middle Ages, the Maronite Church has been centred in Lebanon, even though the country's population is now predominantly Muslim.

The hardy martial Maronites have always valiantly preserved their liberty, and traditions. Two Arab Umayyad Caliphs (661-750 AD) paid the Byzantine Emperor tribute to stop the Maronite Mardaites, called Jarajimah (they inhabited Jarjuma in the Amanus mountains in the modern Turkish province of Hatay, employed as soldiers by Byzantine emperors, they occupied Lebanon, and northern Palestine), attacking their territories. Justinian II by agreement with the Umayyed Caliph Abd al- Malik, resettled 12000 Mardaites in parts of Anatolia, and Greece 685 AD. The remaining Mardaites merged with their spiritual brothers, the mountain Phoenicians, and Aramaic people (Evangelised by the Maronite monk Ibraheem al- Qureshi, traditionally the first Maronite to set foot in Lebanon), the Christian Arabs, who fled the Muslim conquests, the Anbats (Arab farmers, and town dwellers of the Orontes valley), and run away slaves seeking refuge in the Lebanese mountains, to form the present day Maronites.

In the spring of 694 the invading Byzantine army of Justinian II, attacked St. Maron's monastery on the Orontes river in Syria, which was the patriarchal see of st. John Maron, the first Patriarch of the Maronites, and massacred 500 Maronite monks. With the help of his nephew Muqaddam (commander) Ibrahime , and 12000 Maronite fighters, st. John Maron fled to Smar Jbail in Lebanon, and finally settled in Kfir Hay in the Batroun district in Lebanon. When the Byzantine army reached Amioun in the Koura it was attacked, and routed by the Lebanese Maronites.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 06:10 PM.
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Transhumanist
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 05:07 PM
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Jul 24 2011, 04:52 PM
Here we BLOODY go again! Helios. Do not bother with this individual. There is enough AMATEUR DNA data on the various fora for a person of reasonable mind and intelligence to arrive at their own conclusions.
True. It's just quite aggravating that people continue to question the validity of Assyrian identity and such with their remarks, it shows a clear lack of knowledge.
Helius. As I am sure you know, Old Assyrian (which, in reality, is a bit of a misnomer), Middle Assyrian, and Neo-Assyrian are not necessarily the same thing. The Neo-Assyrians were of 1st millennium BCE vintage! There is a reason they are called NEO-Assyrians. The continuity between Old and Neo-Assyrian will likely require, it is conceded, ancient DNA evidence. But, if an individual believes we cannot arrive at an educated opinion regarding the origin of modern Assyrians, based on the totality of the record (amateur and academic) as it has been presented to us, then, I honestly do not know what to tell such a person. Looking strictly from the perspective of DNA, if an individual believes that the combined autosomal, Y-DNA, and mtDNA record does not suggest continuity for at least 2500-3000 years in northern Mesopotamia between the Neo-Assyrians and the modern Assyrians, then, with all due respect, I would ask that person to please educate themselves about the different types of DNA, and population genetics.

Some quick, and recent Dodecad "Oracle v1" autosomal results, for Dodecad Kurds (3 Iraqi, 1 Turkish, 1 Iranian). I have included Assyrians, Iranians, and Iraqi Jews for comparison. The tool comes with its caveats (see bottom), but it does nothing less than support every other shred of evidence thus far revealed regarding Assyrian, and for that matter, Kurdish, Iranian, and Iraqi Jewish DNA:

Assyrians (top 4 are by far the best fits):

[1,] "Assyrian_D" "0"
[2,] "83.9% Armenians_16 + 16.1% Yemen_Jews" "1.7829" (One of only two possible mixes with a minimal African, high Southwest Asian, and high West Asian.)
[3,] "89.1% Armenian_D + 10.9% Saudis" "2.1624" (One of only two possible mixes with a minimal African, high Southwest Asian, and high West Asian.)
[4,] "84.3% Armenians_16 + 15.7% Saudis" "2.2884"
[5,] "88.9% Armenian_D + 11.1% Yemen_Jews" "2.2983"

[6,] "83.8% Armenian_D + 16.2% Bedouin" "4.1579"
[7,] "72.2% Armenian_D + 27.8% Syrians" "4.1841"
[8,] "23.4% Georgians + 76.6% Iraq_Jews" "4.2418"
[9,] "76.2% Armenians_16 + 23.8% Bedouin" "4.332"
[10,] "61.5% Armenians_16 + 38.5% Syrians" "4.4019"
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kurds

[1,] "Kurd_D" "0"
[2,] "16.6% Greek_D + 83.4% Iranians" "2.3315"
[3,] "86.9% Iranians + 13.1% Tuscan" "2.5281"
[4,] "88.8% Iranians + 11.2% North_Italian" "2.6272"
[5,] "15.1% C_Italian_D + 84.9% Iranians" "2.6277"
[6,] "88.1% Iranians + 11.9% N_Italian_D" "2.6515"
[7,] "85.7% Iranians + 14.3% O_Italian_D" "2.7208"
[8,] "86.2% Iranians + 13.8% Romanians_14" "2.827"
[9,] "85.6% Iranians + 14.4% Tuscan_X" "3.0083"
[10,] "85.9% Iranians + 14.1% TSI" "3.0386"

After removing Iranians (Behar and Dodecad), Kurds (Xing), and all Mizrahim (Behar) on account of their presumably more than insignificant Iranian admixture, the Dodecad Kurds come out as follows:

DodecadOracle("Kurd_D",mixedmode=T)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Kurd_D" "0"
[2,] "69.3% Druze + 30.7% Kalash" "5.4195"
[3,] "70.5% Assyrian_D + 29.5% Pathan" "5.4622"

[4,] "73.2% Assyrian_D + 26.8% Burusho" "5.8566"

[5,] "73.6% Assyrian_D + 26.4% Kashmiri_Pandit" "6.5437"
[6,] "74.3% Assyrian_D + 25.7% Pakistani" "6.5966"
[7,] "78.6% Assyrian_D + 21.4% Vaish" "6.7021"

[8,] "64.7% Assyrian_D + 35.3% Balochi" "6.8868"

[9,] "74.6% Assyrian_D + 25.4% Sindhi" "6.9983"
[10,] "64.1% Assyrian_D + 35.9% Brahui" "7.0946"
---------------------------------------------------------------------
After excluding the Behar Iranians, Xing Kurds, and Dodecad Kurds, here are the Dodecad Iranian Oracle results:

DodecadOracle("Iranian_D",mixedmode=T)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Iranian_D" "0"
[2,] "70.1% Assyrian_D + 29.9% Kalash" "6.5939"

[3,] "42.4% Adygei + 57.6% Iranian_Jews" "7.6632"
[4,] "69.7% Armenian_D + 30.3% Kalash" "7.6752"
[5,] "37.7% Adygei + 62.3% Uzbekistan_Jews" "7.7629"

[6,] "64.5% Iranian_Jews + 35.5% Lezgins" "7.8609"
[7,] "59.3% Armenians_16 + 40.7% Makrani" "7.9079"
[8,] "61% Armenian_D + 39% Makrani" "8.0972"

[9,] "62.6% Armenians_16 + 37.4% Brahui" "8.2901"
[10,] "64.2% Armenian_D + 35.8% Brahui" "8.3415"
--------------------------------------------------------------
Iraqi Jews (Behar et al.)

[1,] "Iraq_Jews" "0"
[2,] "31.7% Iranian_D + 68.3% Samaritans" "3.2277"
[3,] "50.7% Assyrian_D + 49.3% Lebanese" "3.4343"
[4,] "40.6% Armenian_D + 59.4% Syrians" "3.5631"
[5,] "78.9% Druze + 21.1% Iranians" "3.5849"
[6,] "35.4% Iranians + 64.6% Samaritans" "3.8337"
[7,] "60.6% Assyrian_D + 39.4% Jordanians_19" "3.8779"
[8,] "57.1% Assyrian_D + 42.9% Palestinian" "3.9229"
[9,] "47.8% Armenian_D + 52.2% Jordanians_19" "3.9393"
[10,] "9.4% Brahui + 90.6% Druze" "3.9575"

Dienekes:
Quote:
 
The mixed mode should be used with caution, and it shows, more than anything else, how similar apparent "mixes" can be achieved by different combinations of ancestry. Nonetheless, it may prove somewhat useful. For example, there is a suggestion in the above results, that Pathans can be viewed as a mix of other South Asian populations and populations from the eastern Caucasus, a suggestion that was arrived at independently by the Project using different methods.
Edited by Transhumanist, Jul 24 2011, 06:34 PM.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Thanks for the post brother, great information. Hopefully it will shed a bit of light for a few people. Modern Assyrians aren't simply "Arabic Christians" as some people refer to them as, they're a distinct group of people that have been oppressed for ages in their own homeland. In my opinion, people who continually deny the heritage of Assyrians are mostly influenced by political motives for doing so rather than being people who are actually interested in genetics.

If we put politics aside and only take into account actual evidence, if the whole world joins together and has a discussion regarding who most deserves a state of their own in Northern Mesopotamia, I'm sure the unanimous decision will be Assyrians. As for Kurds, they obviously are not a Mesopotamian population and I hope the objective bystanders in this topic will realize that. They are not from modern Iraq, they were recent arrivals.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 06:17 PM.
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Coolio
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 04:03 PM
Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 03:53 PM
Your whole arguments are based on self made theories. The semitic language evolved in the southern parts of Levant. It does not matter if a Assyrian specific language evolved in Mesopotamia when its origin is in the Levant. Kurdish also evolved in Mesopotamia and East Anatolia but has its roots in a Region between the Aral and Caspian see. Everything what you claim about Assyrians to prove their nativeness can also be used for Kurds.

Also notice that your map shows SOUTH and CENTRAL Mesopotamia as Assyrian/Akkadian homeland and not North.
And a answer like"I do not need to provide" shows how serious your arguments can be taken. So I simply should take it simply because you said so?

Useless discussion.
The discussion is only useless since I exposed your inability to provide any historical evidence of a specifically Kurdish civilization, culture, monuments, artifacts etc in Mesopotamia beyond a few hundred years old. Semitic languages are all different despite their close similarities, just as Indo-European languages are. I see you're frustrated, it's just a fact that Kurds are relatively new to Mesopotamia and the Assyrians have been driven out of their rightful territory by foreigners. Throughout this discussion you've (probably intentionally) misinterpreted a lot of what I said and twisted my words as well as proven your inability to read maps, etc. Please stop trying to debate me until you can come back with proof of Kurdish civilizations existing in Mesopotamia more than a few hundred years ago.

You can't do it bro.
Let the readers of this thread make themselves a opinion about who clearly failed with his biased and unscientific fantasies.
continue this discussion would bring me to your level. I doubt that you are older than 12. The only thing you exposed was how uneducated and biased you are. With your funny and laughable theories you made a joke out of yourself.
Transhumanist
Jul 24 2011, 05:55 PM
Some quick, and recent Dodecad "Oracle v1" autosomal results, for Dodecad Kurds (3 Iraqi, 1 Turkish, 1 Iranian). I have included Assyrians, Iranians, and Iraqi Jews for comparison.
Hello Humanist the Kurd from Turkey in the Dodecad program is StarDS9. He mentioned that his ancestors were from Northwest Iran here in one of his posts.

And The Results show perfectly that the "South Asian " component among some Kurds is actually Ani Central Asian Pathan and Kalash for example.
Edited by Coolio, Jul 24 2011, 10:13 PM.
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Transhumanist
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Jul 24 2011, 09:56 PM
Let the readers of this thread make themselves a opinion about who clearly failed with his biased and unscientific fantasies.
continue this discussion would bring me to your level. I doubt that you are older than 12. The only thing you exposed was how uneducated and biased you are. You made a joke out of yourself.
Dr. Roy King* is the only academic who has published any Y-STR haplotype data on Assyrians**. He has yet to publish the entire sampled Assyrian data set. However, he is in a unique position (in academia) with regard to knowledge pertaining to Assyrian Y-DNA. From the Armenian DNA Project page:

Peter Hrechdakian:
Quote:
 
With regards to the I2a branch, I am more and more inclined to believe it represents one of the major genetic components of the Indo-European speaking "Armen" people, themselves part of the Phrygian people, who came into Anatolia from the West around 1,300 B.C. As per Dr. Roy King: " ... Assyrians and Armenians are practically identical [genetically] except for language which must be reflected in the I2 and perhaps E1b1b1a-V13 frequencies for the Indo-European superstratum. This is interesting in that it suggests that the Indo-European Armenian speakers came from the Balkans rather than via the Caucasus."

*Current Research Interests
Quote:
 
Current research centers on the use of human genetic haploid systems, e.g. the Y chromosome, to understand the prehistory of human migrations particularly since the Holocene. This work includes investigating correlations with human symbolic material culture, focusing on the visual artistic realm. Also being explored are the issues and ethical implications of the social construction of race and ethnicity vis a vis the enhanced capacity to differentiate populations using genotypes.

[The Spittoon] guest post...by Roy King, who is a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University and a research colleague of Stanford geneticist and 23andMe scientific adviser Peter Underhill. Roy and Peter have been using genetics to trace the spread of agriculture from the Near East to Europe.

**The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations, Chiaroni et al., European Journal of Human Genetics (2010) 18, 348–353; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2009.166; published online 14 October 2009

Edited by Transhumanist, Jul 24 2011, 10:21 PM.
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Coolio
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So this means the high frequency of I2a among Kurds can be traced back to Phrygians? Very interesting stuff. This would also explain why the name of Gorduene/Gordiane, a principality in Southeast of Anatolia was identical to Gordion a province of Phrygia.
Edited by Coolio, Jul 24 2011, 10:25 PM.
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Transhumanist
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Jul 24 2011, 10:24 PM
So this means the high frequency of I2a among Kurds can be traced back to Phrygians? Very interesting stuff. This would also explain why the name of Gorduene/Gordiane, a principality in Southeast of Anatolia was identical to Gordion a province of Phrygia.
It is possible. The Iranian + Mediterranean Dodecad possible "mix" made me think immediately of that. I am hoping more Kurds will join the FTDNA Kurdish DNA Project and test their Y-DNA. I expect to find ancient intersecting lines between Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, and NW Iranians.
Attached to this post:
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Edited by Transhumanist, Jul 24 2011, 10:50 PM.
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Coolio
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This might interest you.

a good part of Northern Iran was former known as Dailam. This Region is believed to have been named after the Dunbuli, Dimili tribe of Kurds which lived in Southeast Anatolia and moved eastward to North Iran. The People which lived in this Region were former known as Kurds by Persian and Arab sources. Even in recent days there are still some traces of Kurds. I believe that a good portion of todays North Iranians are actually acculturated Kurds. Even the languages like Gilaki or Mazandarani spoken by Northern iranians are very similar to Kurdish.


Posted Image

Hamzah al-Isfahani, the Persian historian of the 10 century writes about the People of Dailam that they were called Kurds of Tabaristan by Persians and Kurds of Suristan by Arabs.
Edited by Coolio, Jul 24 2011, 11:09 PM.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 09:56 PM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 04:03 PM
Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 03:53 PM
Your whole arguments are based on self made theories. The semitic language evolved in the southern parts of Levant. It does not matter if a Assyrian specific language evolved in Mesopotamia when its origin is in the Levant. Kurdish also evolved in Mesopotamia and East Anatolia but has its roots in a Region between the Aral and Caspian see. Everything what you claim about Assyrians to prove their nativeness can also be used for Kurds.

Also notice that your map shows SOUTH and CENTRAL Mesopotamia as Assyrian/Akkadian homeland and not North.
And a answer like"I do not need to provide" shows how serious your arguments can be taken. So I simply should take it simply because you said so?

Useless discussion.
The discussion is only useless since I exposed your inability to provide any historical evidence of a specifically Kurdish civilization, culture, monuments, artifacts etc in Mesopotamia beyond a few hundred years old. Semitic languages are all different despite their close similarities, just as Indo-European languages are. I see you're frustrated, it's just a fact that Kurds are relatively new to Mesopotamia and the Assyrians have been driven out of their rightful territory by foreigners. Throughout this discussion you've (probably intentionally) misinterpreted a lot of what I said and twisted my words as well as proven your inability to read maps, etc. Please stop trying to debate me until you can come back with proof of Kurdish civilizations existing in Mesopotamia more than a few hundred years ago.

You can't do it bro.
Let the readers of this thread make themselves a opinion about who clearly failed with his biased and unscientific fantasies.
continue this discussion would bring me to your level. I doubt that you are older than 12. The only thing you exposed was how uneducated and biased you are. With your funny and laughable theories you made a joke out of yourself.
Unscientific fantasies? No, you've got it all wrong again. When I asked you to present evidence of a Kurdish culture, civilization and so on that existed beyond just recently, you failed. You couldn't do it because you knew one never existed and so you kept attempting to change the subject and make comments about my age. Why is there no evidence of a Kurdish presence in northern Iraq dating back to those times? Because the Kurds are not from Iraq, they're recent arrivals. Assyrians have been living there for thousands of years and there is indeed strong evidence of an Assyrian presence in that area dating back to ancient times, pointing this out and arguing with you won't achieve much because you're motivated by a self-serving ideology. I'm suppose I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's still worth exposing your inability to provide evidence of a specifically Kurdish presence in the area that wasn't recent.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 25 2011, 01:42 AM.
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DeepSpace9
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Helius
Jul 25 2011, 01:32 AM
Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 09:56 PM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 04:03 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Let the readers of this thread make themselves a opinion about who clearly failed with his biased and unscientific fantasies.
continue this discussion would bring me to your level. I doubt that you are older than 12. The only thing you exposed was how uneducated and biased you are. With your funny and laughable theories you made a joke out of yourself.
Unscientific fantasies? No, you've got it all wrong again. When I asked you to present evidence of a Kurdish culture, civilization and so on that existed beyond just recently, you failed. You couldn't do it because you knew one never existed and so you kept attempting to change the subject and make comments about my age. Why is there no evidence of a Kurdish presence in northern Iraq dating back to those times? Because the Kurds are not from Iraq, they're recent arrivals. Assyrians have been living there for thousands of years and there is indeed strong evidence of an Assyrian presence in that area dating back to ancient times, pointing this out and arguing with you won't achieve much because you're motivated by a self-serving ideology. I'm suppose I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's still worth exposing your inability to provide evidence of a specifically Kurdish presence in the area that wasn't recent.
Please read about the Kingdom Corduene who were Sycthians that lived in Hakkari not far from Northern Iraq. Also please read about Kurds in West Iran, where the term Kurd appeared around 224bc in Sassanid records. The founder of the Sassanid Empire was half Kurdish, this is evident by the last Parthian king calling Ardashir 1 a Kurd.

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Infinite_Ammo
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StarDS9
Jul 25 2011, 01:48 AM
Helius
Jul 25 2011, 01:32 AM
Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 09:56 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Unscientific fantasies? No, you've got it all wrong again. When I asked you to present evidence of a Kurdish culture, civilization and so on that existed beyond just recently, you failed. You couldn't do it because you knew one never existed and so you kept attempting to change the subject and make comments about my age. Why is there no evidence of a Kurdish presence in northern Iraq dating back to those times? Because the Kurds are not from Iraq, they're recent arrivals. Assyrians have been living there for thousands of years and there is indeed strong evidence of an Assyrian presence in that area dating back to ancient times, pointing this out and arguing with you won't achieve much because you're motivated by a self-serving ideology. I'm suppose I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it's still worth exposing your inability to provide evidence of a specifically Kurdish presence in the area that wasn't recent.
Please read about the Kingdom Corduene who were Sycthians that lived in Hakkari not far from Northern Iraq. Also please read about Kurds in West Iran, where the term Kurd appeared around 224bc in Sassanid records. The founder of the Sassanid Empire was half Kurdish, this is evident by the last Parthian king calling Ardashir 1 a Kurd.

But that's the point. None of that was in Mesopotamia itself, Mesopotamia isn't the homeland of the Kurdish people. Medes and Scythians conspired with the Babylonians for years and attacked Assyria, they were known as foreign people during that time as well. As I said, it would be much more correct for the Kurds to be carved out a state of their own somewhere in Persia (Iran) rather than northern Iraq because that's the rightful land of the Assyrian people. Just because the ruler of the Sassanid empire apparently had Kurdish ancestry is not a valid argument pertaining to real Kurdish presence as a people in northern Iraq or else you could say that the Holy Land also had a Kurdish presence simply because the leader of the Muslims during the 3rd Crusades was a Kurd named Saladin.

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DeepSpace9
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Kurds in Northern Iraq are the decendeds of the Iranians tribes from Mede to the Sassanid era and have been their for a long time since the Medes. Iranians ruled over Mesopotamia for very long periods of time and was nearly always part of the early Iranic dynasty. Do you not think that Iranic tribes settled in the regions that they mostly dominated?
Edited by DeepSpace9, Jul 25 2011, 02:21 AM.
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Coolio
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kurds in northern Iraq are for most descend of Hurrians/Gutians-Scythians/Medes and Sargathians from Türkmenistan. Sargathians came from Sargatia a Region in todays Türkmenistan. They probably spoke an Eastern Iranian language like Scythians but settled in Media Atropatene and later were settled in Erbil. They are maybe the ancestors of Sorani Kurds who knows.

You are underestimating the Hurrian/Gutian and Phrygian impact on Kurds. These tribes were as much important in forming the Kurds.
The ethnogenesis of Kurds is made up by native and North Iranic Populations. The Iranic tribes in their pure Form were mainly West Asian with very strong North European input. I assume something like 60% / 40%. The South Asian component most probably spread later with mixing between East Iranians with Dravidian Populations. Than during the Iranic Empires which stretched from India/China to Greece there was a Gene flow from Central Asian iranic folks, which mixed with South Asians before, to West Asian iranic folks.
Edited by Coolio, Jul 25 2011, 02:49 AM.
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Alberta
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Wow now the Sassanids are Kurds please, they were of Persian blood and had nothing to do with Kurds. Stop taking other peoples culture and claiming them as Kurdish. What was funny is many Kurds on youtube claim that Persians have stolen their history and culture which is to say nonsense. Iranic tribes did dominate Iraq and even mixed with the locals but they were not Kurds. Kurds are relatively new. Kurds are Kuridifying the Arabs and Turkmens. The fact is Kurdish presence in Northern Iraq is new, and the name Suristan means land of the Syrians or Assyrians in Persians and it was mostly a Christian and a Semitic region. Assyrians are the native people to Northern Iraq.
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Jim H
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 11:12 AM
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Jul 24 2011, 10:12 AM
So Helius, are you going to test your Y-DNA? Use Family Tree DNA, they have the most detailed results.
I was thinking more regarding 23andme. Family Tree DNA will apparently charge me $169 to discover my Y-DNA, but I'm also interested in my SNPs, etc. Are there any advantages it has over 23andme?
Since there is a good chance your Y-DNA is some version of J, before paying your money you should get a specific answer from 23andMe as to what SNPs they will test. One recent update of 23andMe was no longer able to identify J1e (which FTDNA and a consortium call J1c3 --- http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ.html ). That will be important to know if you have some version of J1.

Also, if you want to do the kind of analysis I have done on my J1 (mine is traceable to the Caucasus; Google Map at http://tinyurl.com/nsww44 ) you will need the STR markers which FTDNA tests and which 23andMe does not test.

There's been so much bickering on this thread that I'm not sure what your research goal is. If you want to know the genetic composition of Lebanese Maronites, you can get that from the academic papers I mentioned. If you want to trace your direct paternal line back in time, I'd recommend FTDNA. But 23andMe tests a lot more of your entire DNA, so it might be useful in ways I can't foresee.

Regards,
Jim
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DeepSpace9
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Alberta
Jul 25 2011, 07:03 AM
Wow now the Sassanids are Kurds please, they were of Persian blood and had nothing to do with Kurds. Stop taking other peoples culture and claiming them as Kurdish. What was funny is many Kurds on youtube claim that Persians have stolen their history and culture which is to say nonsense. Iranic tribes did dominate Iraq and even mixed with the locals but they were not Kurds. Kurds are relatively new. Kurds are Kuridifying the Arabs and Turkmens. The fact is Kurdish presence in Northern Iraq is new, and the name Suristan means land of the Syrians or Assyrians in Persians and it was mostly a Christian and a Semitic region. Assyrians are the native people to Northern Iraq.
Ardashir 1 was, half Kurdish, he was born to the Shabankara tribe who were known as Kurds. Also a letter Ardavan, the last King of the Parthians wrote to Ardashir it reffered to Ardashir as a Kurd. The Shabankara were a Kurdish tribe. To this day, their still is a tribe called Shabankara in Kermanshah. It is mentioned in the book "Shadows in the desert: ancient Persia at war
By Kaveh Farrokh"

Kurdifying Arabs and Turkmens? Genetics of Iraqi Kurds are pretty similar to Iranian Kurds and Persians, so they did not Kurdify no Arabs or Turkmens, if they did they would lean towards Iraqi Arabs and have high East asian score from Turks.

Also I never said the Sassanids were Kurds, I said the term Kurd appeared first in West Iran in Sassanids record, please get your facts straght. Also the Sassanids were not just Persians, the Sassanids came to power with the help of many Iranic tribes like the Shabankara who were a powerful tribe in the southern zagros. Not only that I am sure Kurds played a part the in the Sassanids, just look at Kermanshah Kurdish populated city a Sassanid capital .

Also I can see your hatred for Kurds creeping up in your posts, by claiming the same crap that Kurds are relatively new or we are stealing history. What is funny now is, because you recently find out you might have some Persian ancestory, you are becoming protective of Persians. When it's Persians themselves who write about how Ardashir had Kurdish heritage.
Also it was the Sassanids, that used the word "Iran" first "Land of Aryans". Why did they not call it Persia like the outside world? Sassanids saw all Iranic tribes as Aryans and as one.
A city with large amount of Kurds with Zoroastrian temples that were likely built before the Islamic expansion.

http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2006/August2006/23-08.htm

Quote:
 
LONDON, (CAIS) -- A Zoroastrian fire-temple is believed to be discovered in Duhok city, which is the most complete to have been unearthed in the region.

Duhok's Director of Antiquities, Hasan Ahmed Qassim, has announced the discovery of a Zoroastrian temple near Jar Sangi Cave. The temple is believed to be the most complete to have been unearthed in the region. It is also said that it was a Mithraist temple.

"The temple was dedicated to the Zoroastrian deity Anahita, indicated by the discovery of Anahita's emblem, and a fire-alter at the heart of the temple" according to Qassim.

He further described the temple as being made up of five sanctuaries, three of which were carved into rock, with the remaining two having been constructed from stone blocks.

This discovery is being hailed as the most significant archaeological development in the region in recent times.

The newly discovered Zoroastrian Temple near Jar Sangi Cave near Duhok; The picture shows the inside of the cave.

"This new discovery will alter the history of the region due to its unique architectural style, which differs considerably from Zoroastrian temples previously discovered," explained the Director of Antiquities.

Qassim added, "the temple's style which looks toward the four-directions (Chahar Taqi) is central to Iranian architectural tradition, but it is a unique style ever discovered in this region; thus it reaffirms our cultural cohesion with the Zoroastrian heritage, which becomes an entry to studying Zarathushtrian art and archeology in this region."

At present archaeology teams are continuing work at the site to find out more about the temple's history.

Ancient ruins, carvings, and sculptures discovered in the hills and caves bear witness to Dohuk’s significance past. Dahuk (also spelled Duhok) lies in the northwest of what is today known as Iraq, at 585m above sea-level and 470km north of Baghdad. It has about 300,000 inhabitants, mostly consisting of Kurds with minority groups of Assyrians, Chaldeans, Arabs, Armenians and Yazidis. According to some sources, the name "Dohuk" comes from Kurmanji Kurdish meaning "small village".
Edited by DeepSpace9, Jul 25 2011, 04:27 PM.
Best song of 2011
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Joe_K
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I will write this brief history of the Maronites which I will expand and add references to later on. As an amateur Maronite historian I can say the following:


“Maronites are Lebanon and Lebanon is the Maronites”

The Maronite church is an Eastern Catholic Church in full communion with the Holy See of Rome. It traces its heritage back to the community founded by Maron, a 4th-century Syriac (not Syrian) monk venerated as a saint.

In the 5th 6th and 7th centuries, Maronite monks from the Antioch region baptized the Phoenicians in Northern Mount Lebanon who were still pagans at a time when citizens of coastal Phoenicians were fully Christianized.

During those days, several waves of persecution against Aramaic Maronites in the northern Levant mainly around Antioch and Coastal Syria forced many to move to Mount Lebanon and seek refuge among the Phoenician Maronites who were able to defend themselves in the high peaks of the mountains. Persecution started originally with Jacobites Christians (over the nature of Christ) and resumed later on with the arrival of the Arab invaders.

By the 7th century the Maronites were mainly concentrated in Lebanon, and had a mixture of Phoenican and Aramaica; their language was Syriac wich is a reference to the Western dialect of Aramaic. After the arrival of Islam, many of those living on coastal Lebanon, including Greeks, who refused to convert to the new religion joined the Maronites in the mountains, thus adding to the diversity of the population.

Around the middle of the 7th century, the Byzantine Emperor transferred a unite of elite border guards called the Maradaites (known as Marada or Jarajima in Lebanon) from today’s Anatolia. That group whose origins is still unknown (most probably Armenian), merged with the Maronite population and was tasked with raiding neighboring lands that was under Arab occupation. In 790 AD the majority of the Marada troops were removed by force following a peace treaty between Byzantium and the Omayyad in Damascus, but many of them remained and merged with local population.

Thus the Maronites were a mix of Phoenicians, Aramaics, Maradites, and Greeks when the Crusaders arrived to the Akkar plains in 1099. Together they formed an alliance which will later on reaffirm Maronite ties to Rome (mid 12th century), and build excellent relations with France that shall prove to be detrimental on their upcoming 1000 years history. Thousands of Maronites joined the Order of the Knights of Saint John in Jerusalem, Acre and Cyprus. In the hierarchy that the Frankish authorities established in the Holy Land, "Maronites came immediately after the Franks and before the Jacobites, Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians and Abyssinians. Moreover, they were admitted into the Frankish middle class and shared the civil and juridical privileges offered to the Latin middle class" (Ristelhueber 1925: 58). This is why many Maronite families (about 15% of total population) claim a genealogical link to the crusades.

During the middle ages, Maronites started gradually adapting Arabic as a language to communicate with their surrounding; however they kept Syriac (Christian Aramaic language) as their liturgical language which remains until today. A small minority of Maronites are of Arab origins and are descendant of Christian Arab tribes (Ghassanids).

In politics, the Maronites always strived for independence which they enjoyed through much of their existence on Mount-Lebanon. With the arrival of the Ottomans in 1516AD, their autonomous state that existed since the 7th century was merged with the semi-independent principality of Lebanon under the leadership of a Druze prince. The Druze and Maronite formed a great alliance that lasted until 1825, then collapsed in a series of civil wars mainly in 1825,1840, 1860.

In 1920, France gave back to the then reduced in size Mount Lebanon the lands that were taken away in 1860 (after the last Druze-Maronite civil war of the 19th century), thus forming the state of Lebanon, which in 1926 became the oldest democracy in the middle east.

In conclusion, the Maronites are a Levantine people by excellence; they are a mix of Phoenician, Aramaic, Maradaites, Crusaders, Arabs and Armenians. The fact that today they speak Arabic does not make them ethnic ARABS. Their culture is typically Mediterranean; they have more in common with Greeks, Turks, Cypriots, and Coastal Syrians in tradition and diet than they do with Jordanians, Eastern Syrians, Saudis, Kuwaities, or any other Arabian cultures.

In politics, the crushing majority of Maronites were always “anti-Arabism,” regardless that many Maronite thinkers of the 19th century advocated “Arab Nationalism” in an attempt to instigate an Arab revolt forcing an Ottoman retreat from the region. Maronites were ferocious anti-union with any Arab State, and in contrary to many Christian “Arabists” or Syrian Nationalist such as the Orthodox Antoun Saadeh or Michel Aflak, thus Maronites' strong nationalism was later known and referred to as "Political Maronitism". Thus, Lebanon, the materialization of the Maronite dream was not an Arab country until their defeat in the civil war in 1989 when it was imposed upon them in the Taif Peace accords to amend the constitution and introduce a clause saying that “Lebanon is an Arab country.”

It is important to note that even thought the Maronites were strong nationalist and never acknowledged an Arab identity, they were never enemies to the Arab states except to when there were attempts of interference in Lebanese politics (Nasser in 1958, Assad, Arafat 70's 80' 90' 00'). Lebanon was a founding member of the Arab league mainly due to good relations with the Arab countries.

Note: The word Syriac means the original Aramaic inhabitants of the Levant who converted to Christianity. Syriac is not to be confused with Syrian and is a clear distinction used by many Levantine Christians communities to identify their pre-Arab origins; in other words, Syriac means those who refused in history to adopt the Arabic identity or the Islamic Religion.
Edited by Joe_K, Sep 22 2011, 03:10 AM.
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