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Lebanese Maronite ancestry and genetics.
Topic Started: Jul 21 2011, 05:16 AM (7,627 Views)
zeta
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I think that whole area was more of an ancient Persian area originally and they had vast numbers of non-Persians in their armies.
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Infinite_Ammo
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No, the Sumerians, Assyrians and Babylonians predated Ancient Persia by thousands of years.
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what_does_it_mean
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 05:20 AM
No, the Sumerians, Assyrians and Babylonians predated Ancient Persia by thousands of years.
persia yes, but not Elam and related kingdoms in the region, there is actually a real debat going on whether an ancient civilization in modern southern iran is in fact older than those found in Mesopotamia, the said city might actually be the very first city in history? :eek:

I of curse agree with you reply to zeta!
Edited by what_does_it_mean, Jul 24 2011, 05:57 AM.
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Jim H
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So Helius, are you going to test your Y-DNA? Use Family Tree DNA, they have the most detailed results.
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luckystar85
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@ Alberta there's no such race as ''Iranic'' Azerbaijanis are Illyrian tribes Turks are Albanian
Also Memo is a Kurd not a Caucasus Iranian.
Edited by luckystar85, Jul 24 2011, 10:24 AM.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 03:47 AM
I do not want to disturb you two but I have to ask a question.

Helius define what you mean with true "Middle Eastern". You deny the northern Middle East origin of Kurds just because of some insignificant percentage of South Asian and at the same time you claim a northern Mesopotamian heritage of Assyrians even though they have higher Southwest Asian. How do you explain that?
Sorry for responding late, I didn't see your post earlier. The South Asian % Kurds have is quite significant actually and unlike the Assyrians the Medes had quite a strong presence in South Asia. Kurds are relatively new to Mesopotamia while Assyrians have lived there for thousands and thousands of years. The affinity Assyrians have with Southwest Asians isn't really due to being influenced by them genetically, it's because the Assyrians influenced the people living in Southwest Asia genetically ages ago. I'm sure you know the Assyrians predated the Arabs first arrival by thousands of years. In fact, the way Assyrians were able to preserve their identity was by exiling members who intermarried with people of other faiths.

Can you show ancient Kurdish monuments or anything that suggests a real Kurdish presence in Northern Iraq which existed before the last few hundred years? You can certainly find plenty of Assyrian monuments and all the archaeological evidence is easily available to anyone that Assyrians have lived in that area for millennia and thus deserve a state of their own. It would be more correct for Kurdistan to be carved out in Iran.
Jim H
Jul 24 2011, 10:12 AM
So Helius, are you going to test your Y-DNA? Use Family Tree DNA, they have the most detailed results.
I was thinking more regarding 23andme. Family Tree DNA will apparently charge me $169 to discover my Y-DNA, but I'm also interested in my SNPs, etc. Are there any advantages it has over 23andme?
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 11:34 AM.
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Coolio
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 11:12 AM
Sorry for responding late, I didn't see your post earlier. The South Asian % Kurds have is quite significant actually and unlike the Assyrians the Medes had quite a strong presence in South Asia. Kurds are relatively new to Mesopotamia while Assyrians have lived there for thousands and thousands of years. The affinity Assyrians have with Southwest Asians isn't really due to being influenced by them genetically, it's because the Assyrians influenced the people living in Southwest Asia genetically ages ago. I'm sure you know the Assyrians predated the Arabs first arrival by thousands of years. In fact, the way Assyrians were able to preserve their identity was by exiling members who intermarried with people of other faiths.

Can you show ancient Kurdish monuments or anything that suggests a real Kurdish presence in Northern Iraq which existed before the last few hundred years? You can certainly find plenty of Assyrian monuments and all the archaeological evidence is easily available to anyone that Assyrians have lived in that area for millennia and thus deserve a state of their own. It would be more correct for Kurdistan to be carved out in Iran.


6% higher South Asian of Iraqi Kurds is not more significant than 5% higher Southwest Asian among Assyrians. And at the same time Kurds seem to have 11% higher North European components what pushes them more North and is worth or similar to 20% Mediterranean or 15% West Asian.

To your question about ancient monuments well the region was known to have Iranic populations for more than 3 thousand years. And do not also Hurrians and other tribes belong to Kurdish ancestors. I think Hurrians are much older in that Region.
And according to Wikipedia the region was called Badinan, a famous kurdish principality, for over 640 years now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badinan

And sorry may I ask how is it that you assume Assyrians got more Southwest Asian because they influenced the peninsula* but at the same time you assume a South Asian heritage of Kurds for almost the same figure of more South Asian among them?
And did you not just recently wrote Assyrians originated in the Levant. How does this make them original and more native to North Mesopotamia than Iraqi Kurds?


*which is actually not true http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/c/c1/20100121210501!Map_of_Assyria.png
Edited by Coolio, Jul 24 2011, 03:47 PM.
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DeepSpace9
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 04:40 AM
StarDS9
Jul 24 2011, 03:51 AM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:31 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep

Like you said your self, the Levant is homeland of the Semetic languages, Semetic people who moved to the north and mixed with the Caucasians, which the reason why Assyrians cluster close to Caucasians. And also Mesopotamia is not the Levant.

Kurds are on the same boat they are a mix of Caucasians and Iranian tribes which is why Kurds also cluster more closer to Caucasians then to Central Asians like Afghans. And have just as much wright to claim indapendence. Assyrians themselves also deserve a nation.
But the Levant isn't Southwest Asia, it's West Asia so I guess we just had a bit of confusion when you referred to it as SW Asia because that's the Arabian peninsula. I agree that Kurds should have a state of their own, but not in the ancient Assyrian homeland as I believe the Assyrians have much more of a claim to that area.
If Kurds and Assyrians had a option of independence I am sure they will agree on who gets where.

I still don't know why you keep reffering to Kurds are relatively new? 3000 years is still new? When Iranic people were present in the Kurdish regions 1,500 years before Arabs and 2,000 years before Turks.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 12:30 PM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 11:12 AM
Sorry for responding late, I didn't see your post earlier. The South Asian % Kurds have is quite significant actually and unlike the Assyrians the Medes had quite a strong presence in South Asia. Kurds are relatively new to Mesopotamia while Assyrians have lived there for thousands and thousands of years. The affinity Assyrians have with Southwest Asians isn't really due to being influenced by them genetically, it's because the Assyrians influenced the people living in Southwest Asia genetically ages ago. I'm sure you know the Assyrians predated the Arabs first arrival by thousands of years. In fact, the way Assyrians were able to preserve their identity was by exiling members who intermarried with people of other faiths.

Can you show ancient Kurdish monuments or anything that suggests a real Kurdish presence in Northern Iraq which existed before the last few hundred years? You can certainly find plenty of Assyrian monuments and all the archaeological evidence is easily available to anyone that Assyrians have lived in that area for millennia and thus deserve a state of their own. It would be more correct for Kurdistan to be carved out in Iran.


6% higher South Asian of Iraqi Kurds is not more significant than 5% higher Southwest Asian among Assyrians.

To your question about ancient monuments well the region was known to have Iranic populations for more than 3 thousand years. And do not also Hurrians and other tribes belong to Kurdish ancestors. I think Hurrians are much older in that Region.
And according to Wikipedia the region was called Badinan, a famous kurdish principality, for over 640 years now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badinan

And sorry may I ask how is it that you assume Assyrians got more Southwest Asian because they influenced the peninsula* but at the same time you assume a South Asian heritage of Kurds for almost the same figure of more South Asian among them?
And did you not just recently wrote Assyrians originated in the Levant. How does this make them original and more native to North Mesopotamia than Iraqi Kurds?


*which is actually not true http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/c/c1/20100121210501!Map_of_Assyria.png
As I already stated, the Southwest Asian component in Assyrians doesn't matter. The Assyrians have a higher affinity (affinity, not really admixture) with Southwest Asians. For one, Assyrians lack Negroid ancestry which Arabian peninsula Arabs have, if the Assyrians did in fact mix with them then they would score Negroid %, yet they don't. It's a fact that the ancestors of Assyrians were the ones to influence the Arabian peninsula genetically thousands of years ago, haplogroup J itself originated in the Fertile Crescent and went south. Besides that, Southwest Asian DNA is Middle Eastern while South Asian DNA is not, it's foreign to the entire Middle East including Mesopotamia. The South Asian admixture Kurds have is a real part of their heritage/culture. They're certainly not originally from Mesopotamia as Assyrians are.

Iranic populations in small numbers maybe, but certainly no one identifying themselves as "Kurdish". I would like to see some monuments and evidence of specifically "Kurdish" civilization in Northern Iraq that are more than a few hundred years old. The Assyrian empire, its monuments, culture, etc are all there. It's clear as day. Northern Iraq is the true homeland of the Assyrian people and in my opinion (I'm not saying this because I may be Assyrian) deserve a state as soon as possible. It seems to be a dream, but I hope it will be realized one day. Kurdistan should exist too as long as it doesn't become a rogue state, and I think it shouldn't be in Assyrian territory but rather in Persia.

Lastly, I never said that the Assyrians originated in the Levant. You may have misread. I said the Semitic languages originated in the Levant. The Assyrian homeland is obviously northern Iraq, and that's exactly what I said previous.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 03:22 PM.
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luckystar85
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What are they as a race, I think they came from Iraq to begin with.
How come you got that result, if you're a Lebanese Christian?
Edited by luckystar85, Jul 24 2011, 03:15 PM.
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Infinite_Ammo
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luckystar85
Jul 24 2011, 03:15 PM
What are they as a race, I think they came from Iraq to begin with.
How come you got that result, if you're a Lebanese Christian?
No, Kurds didn't come from Iraq...they aren't Mesopotamians.

And what result are you talking about? Not sure what you mean.
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Coolio
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:13 PM
As I already stated, the Southwest Asian component in Assyrians doesn't matter. The Assyrians have a higher affinity (affinity, not really admixture) with Southwest Asians. For one, Assyrians lack Negroid ancestry which Arabian peninsula Arabs have, if the Assyrians did in fact mix with them then they would score Negroid %, yet they don't. It's a fact that the ancestors of Assyrians were the ones to influence the Arabian peninsula genetically thousands of years ago, haplogroup J itself originated in the Fertile Crescent and went south. Besides that, Southwest Asian DNA is Middle Eastern while South Asian DNA is not, it's foreign to the entire Middle East including Mesopotamia. The South Asian admixture Kurds have is a real part of their heritage/culture. They're certainly not originally from Mesopotamia as Assyrians are.

Iranic populations in small numbers maybe, but certainly no one identifying themselves as "Kurdish". I would like to see some monuments and evidence of specifically "Kurdish" civilization in Northern Iraq that's more than a few hundred years old. The Assyrian empire, its monuments, culture, etc was all easily proven through. It's clear as day. Northern Iraq is the true homeland of the Assyrian people and in my opinion (I'm not saying this because I may be Assyrian) deserve a state as soon as possible. It seems to be a dream, but I hope it will be realized one day. Kurdistan should exist too as long as it doesn't become a rogue state, and I think it shouldn't be in Assyrian territory but rather in Persia.

Lastly, I never said that the Assyrians originated in the Levant. You may have misread. I said the Semitic languages originated in the Levant. The Assyrian homeland is obviously northern Iraq, and that's exactly what I said previous.
Thats really interesting. You claim the Southwest Asian component among Assyrians is only "affinity" but the South Asian among Kurds has to be admixture? Can you please provide a source for this?

Haplogroup J originated in the Zagros area. The original Haplogroup of Semites is believed to have been E*. It is also very strong in the Levant where the semitic language evolved.

You might have not said that Assyrians originated in the Levant but your clearly point out that the Levant is the homeland of semitic Populations. So when you assume Kurds are not native to Mesopotamia because their language evolved somewhere else, how can you claim that Assyrians are native to Mesopotamia when their language evolved in the Levant. How kind of moral is that?

Can you provide me international and scientific sources which say that ancient Assyrians evolved in northern Mesopotamia and that ancient Assyrians are the same as todays. Please no amateurish websites.

Also you should know what is meant under the term Middle East.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Middle_east.jpg
luckystar85
Jul 24 2011, 03:15 PM
What are they as a race, I think they came from Iraq to begin with.
How come you got that result, if you're a Lebanese Christian?
Kurds do not came from South or Central Iraq. They came from northern Mesopotamia also known as North Iraq while Assyrians originated somewhere in the southern Levant where Jordan is located.

Iraqi Kurds are similar to Caspians and some extent Georgians. while Assyrians are similar to Jordanians.

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Edited by Coolio, Jul 24 2011, 03:38 PM.
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luckystar85
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I mean Assyrian people come from Iraq. So, how did you get that result if you're a Lebanese Christian?
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zeta
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:13 PM
I said the Semitic languages originated in the Levant.
I really doubt that. I would say at a lower latitude - along the lines of Africa to Saudi Arabia, then it spread northwards and eastwards.
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This is Dinarid. If they don't look like this, then they ain't Dinarid.
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Coolio
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very good point Zeta.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 03:25 PM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:13 PM
As I already stated, the Southwest Asian component in Assyrians doesn't matter. The Assyrians have a higher affinity (affinity, not really admixture) with Southwest Asians. For one, Assyrians lack Negroid ancestry which Arabian peninsula Arabs have, if the Assyrians did in fact mix with them then they would score Negroid %, yet they don't. It's a fact that the ancestors of Assyrians were the ones to influence the Arabian peninsula genetically thousands of years ago, haplogroup J itself originated in the Fertile Crescent and went south. Besides that, Southwest Asian DNA is Middle Eastern while South Asian DNA is not, it's foreign to the entire Middle East including Mesopotamia. The South Asian admixture Kurds have is a real part of their heritage/culture. They're certainly not originally from Mesopotamia as Assyrians are.

Iranic populations in small numbers maybe, but certainly no one identifying themselves as "Kurdish". I would like to see some monuments and evidence of specifically "Kurdish" civilization in Northern Iraq that's more than a few hundred years old. The Assyrian empire, its monuments, culture, etc was all easily proven through. It's clear as day. Northern Iraq is the true homeland of the Assyrian people and in my opinion (I'm not saying this because I may be Assyrian) deserve a state as soon as possible. It seems to be a dream, but I hope it will be realized one day. Kurdistan should exist too as long as it doesn't become a rogue state, and I think it shouldn't be in Assyrian territory but rather in Persia.

Lastly, I never said that the Assyrians originated in the Levant. You may have misread. I said the Semitic languages originated in the Levant. The Assyrian homeland is obviously northern Iraq, and that's exactly what I said previous.
Thats really interesting. You claim the Southwest Asian component among Assyrians is only "affinity" but the South Asian among Kurds has to be admixture? Can you please provide a source for this?

Haplogroup J originated in the Zagros area. The original Haplogroup of Semites is believed to have been E*. It is also very strong in the Levant where the semitic language evolved.

You might have not said that Assyrians originated in the Levant but your clearly point out that the Levant is the homeland of semitic Populations. So when you assume Kurds are not native to Middle East because their language evolved somewhere else, how can you claim that Assyrians are native to Mesopotamia when their language evolved in the Levant. How kind of moral is that?

Can you provide me international and scientific sources which provide that ancient Assyrians evolved in northern Mesopotamia and that ancient Assyrians are the same as todays. Please no amateurish websites.

Also you should know what is meant under the term Middle East.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Middle_east.jpg
I don't need to provide a source regarding the Southwest Asian debacle because I was only trying to explain it to you, it wasn't contrary to my point at all. Again, if Assyrians mixed with the modern populations of the Arabian peninsula they would have a Negroid % admix in their DNA, which they don't. This proves they aren't mixed with them (not to mention how relatively successful they were in preserving their ethnic heritage).

The Assyrian language didn't evolve in the Levant. Look at the picture attached. Different forms of the Semitic language evolved in different places around the Fertile Crescent and beyond. The Akkadian language Assyrians spoke wasn't Levantine, it was Mesopotamian.

And no. The Middle East is a region that includes the Arabian peninsula, Mesopotamia, Egypt the Levant, Anatolia and Persia usually however the populations there certainly differ in their similarities more or less and belong to different regions as well as many having strong foreign admixture. Sudan, Afghanistan, etc are not Middle Eastern. Kurds are foreign to Mesopotamia, Assyrians are natives. Until you can show me some evidence of specifically Kurdish civilizations, culture, monuments and such in Northern Iraq that existed more than a few hundred years ago my opinion won't change.

Origin of Semitic languages:

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luckystar85
Jul 24 2011, 03:31 PM
I mean Assyrian people come from Iraq. So, how did you get that result if you're a Lebanese Christian?
I still don't know what you mean by result. I've never done a genetics test.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 04:39 PM.
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Coolio
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Your whole arguments are based on self made theories. The semitic language evolved in the southern parts of Levant. It does not matter if a Assyrian specific language evolved in Mesopotamia when its origin is in the Levant. Kurdish also evolved in Mesopotamia and East Anatolia but has its roots in a Region between the Aral and Caspian see. Everything what you claim about Assyrians to prove their nativeness can also be used for Kurds.

Also notice that your map shows SOUTH and CENTRAL Mesopotamia as Assyrian/Akkadian homeland and not North.
And a answer like"I do not need to provide" shows how serious your arguments can be taken. So I simply should take your arguments for real because you said so?

Useless discussion.
Edited by Coolio, Jul 24 2011, 03:56 PM.
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luckystar85
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E3b is Neolithic J2 is Fertile Cresent/ Anatalia J1 and J* is Arabian Gulf
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Infinite_Ammo
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Coolio
Jul 24 2011, 03:53 PM
Your whole arguments are based on self made theories. The semitic language evolved in the southern parts of Levant. It does not matter if a Assyrian specific language evolved in Mesopotamia when its origin is in the Levant. Kurdish also evolved in Mesopotamia and East Anatolia but has its roots in a Region between the Aral and Caspian see. Everything what you claim about Assyrians to prove their nativeness can also be used for Kurds.

Also notice that your map shows SOUTH and CENTRAL Mesopotamia as Assyrian/Akkadian homeland and not North.
And a answer like"I do not need to provide" shows how serious your arguments can be taken. So I simply should take it simply because you said so?

Useless discussion.
The discussion is only useless since I exposed your inability to provide any historical evidence of a specifically Kurdish civilization, culture, monuments, artifacts etc in Mesopotamia beyond a few hundred years old. Semitic languages are all different despite their close similarities, just as Indo-European languages are. I see you're frustrated, it's just a fact that Kurds are relatively new to Mesopotamia and the Assyrians have been driven out of their rightful territory by foreigners. Throughout this discussion you've (probably intentionally) misinterpreted a lot of what I said and twisted my words as well as proven your inability to read maps, etc. Please stop trying to debate me until you can come back with proof of Kurdish civilizations existing in Mesopotamia more than a few hundred years ago.

You can't do it bro.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 04:08 PM.
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Transhumanist
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Here we BLOODY go again! Helios. Do not bother with this individual. There is enough AMATEUR DNA data on the various fora for a person of reasonable mind and intelligence to arrive at their own conclusions.
Edited by Transhumanist, Jul 24 2011, 04:53 PM.
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