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Lebanese Maronite ancestry and genetics.
Topic Started: Jul 21 2011, 05:16 AM (7,639 Views)
Infinite_Ammo
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ren33
Jul 21 2011, 07:36 PM
Helius
Jul 21 2011, 07:18 PM
I didn't ignore the fact that he was Syraic. I said myself that the Maronite faith arrived in Lebanon, however that occurred hundreds of years ago and not in the 1800s as you claimed. The Maronites migrated to Lebanon after he died and converted the local inhabitants,
Ok since we both agree the Saint was Syriac and his followers were also Syriac who after his death then went to lebanon and converted the people there..doesn't that make the Maronites today a mix of people of different backgrounds who converted to the Maronite faith as i said earlier?
Sure, they're probably a mixture of quite a few things actually. I can agree with that, but why did you radically change your views now? If you had just said that in the beginning we wouldn't have had an argument but you said specifically: "The Maronites left Syria to Lebanon in the 1800's because of oppression against them,, and that makes them Syrians not Assyrians!"

So now I hope you realize that statement and a few others were misplaced. Either way I would bet many people in Syria are quite similar genetically to Maronites however this thread was about the ancestral component of Maronites, not whether they should call themselves "Syrians" in a nationalistic sense. What you did is the same as telling an Assyrian living in Turkey that he's Iraqi, when the modern state of Iraq was created by the British (who didn't take into account the various ethnic groups living there while mapping up the borders) and doesn't really represent their nationalistic perspective.
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ren33
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Helius
Jul 21 2011, 07:44 PM
Sure, they're probably a mixture of quite a few things actually. I can agree with that, but why did you radically change your views now?
Finally we agree on something!


Oh and i didn't 'radically change my views" if you followed my posts you'd see that i was saying the same thing and didn't radically change anything ;)
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Infinite_Ammo
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ren33
Jul 21 2011, 08:11 PM
Helius
Jul 21 2011, 07:44 PM
Sure, they're probably a mixture of quite a few things actually. I can agree with that, but why did you radically change your views now?
Finally we agree on something!


Oh and i didn't 'radically change my views" if you followed my posts you'd see that i was saying the same thing and didn't radically change anything ;)
Well, Maronites aren't "Syrians". Your nationalistic views don't really take into account population genetics or ancestry, so I won't argue with you about it since I doubt you know much about genetics. Anyway, the "Syrian" identity is just a national term that encompasses several different diverse ethnic groups living in that country today, it doesn't make them "Syrians" except by modern nationality. I hope you understand that.
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ren33
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Huh? My nationalistic views?

What i did was simply quote your fellow Maronite. OK?



Edited by ren33, Jul 21 2011, 08:42 PM.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Hmm, so you quoted something you had no idea about and didn't truly believe in yourself? Way to make your point. Anyway, he was obviously an ultra-nationalist and anyone familiar with the politics of the region knows that Syrian nationalists would love to annex Lebanon as a part of Syria since they consider the Levant as a whole part of "Greater Syria". He was obviously driven by nationalistic means and I'm not quite sure why I'm trying to explain this to you since it should already be obvious. This thread is about the ancestry of Maronites, not Syrian nationalism.

Edit: What I meant by your "nationalistic views" was that your viewpoint on nationality doesn't correlate with reality since you made the statement that Maronites were "Syrians". I didn't imply that you had a specific ideology, just that you think in terms of nationality and probably don't realize that the Middle East is very diverse and the fact that there are several different ethnic groups living in different countries under one nationality. They aren't all the same people genetically.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 21 2011, 08:52 PM.
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ren33
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Helius
Jul 21 2011, 08:46 PM
Hmm, so you quoted something you had no idea about and didn't truly believe in yourself? Way to make your point. Anyway, he was obviously an ultra-nationalist and anyone familiar with the politics of the region knows that Syrian nationalists would love to annex Lebanon as a part of Syria since they consider the Levant as a whole part of "Greater Syria". He was obviously driven by nationalistic means and I'm not quite sure why I'm trying to explain this to you since it should be quite obvious. This thread is about the ancestry of Maronites, not Syrian nationalism.
Antun Saadeh was born in lebanon which makes him lebanese so why do you think he was a Syrian nationalist and supported the concept of Greater Syria?

Maybe he feels attached to Modern day Syria because it's where St.Maroun the founder of Maronitism was born.Or maybe because the Maronites are Syriac by culture and their church is a branch of the Syrian church of Antioch and the language of their church is Syriac??

Why do you think a Lebanese Maronite would support the idea of Greater Syria? Tell me please because im really curious!

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Infinite_Ammo
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ren33
Jul 21 2011, 09:03 PM
Helius
Jul 21 2011, 08:46 PM
Hmm, so you quoted something you had no idea about and didn't truly believe in yourself? Way to make your point. Anyway, he was obviously an ultra-nationalist and anyone familiar with the politics of the region knows that Syrian nationalists would love to annex Lebanon as a part of Syria since they consider the Levant as a whole part of "Greater Syria". He was obviously driven by nationalistic means and I'm not quite sure why I'm trying to explain this to you since it should be quite obvious. This thread is about the ancestry of Maronites, not Syrian nationalism.
Antun Saadeh was born in lebanon which makes him lebanese so why do you think he was a Syrian nationalist and supported the concept of Greater Syria?

Maybe he feels attached to Modern day Syria because it's where St.Maroun the founder of Maronitism was born.Or maybe because the Maronites are Syriac by culture and their church is a branch of the Syrian church of Antioch and the language of their church is Syriac??

Why do you think a Lebanese Maronite would support the idea of Greater Syria? Tell me please because im really curious!

Like I said, this was a thread about Maronite genetics, not about Syrian nationalism and it's very boring to discuss this irrelevant nonsense. The fact is most Maronites don't want to associate themselves with Syria, and neither do most Lebanese. The modern state of Syria isn't really "Syriac" in the first place, the borders were drawn by the French and the people there are quite diverse yet the are ruled by a dictator regime. You obviously don't know much about the history of the Middle East, genetics, etc. I'm not in the mood to discuss Syrian nationalism, the fact is that Maronites are a distinct ethnic group with their own communities and I made this thread solely for the purpose of finding more about their ancestral (genetic) origins and wanted people to shed some light on the topic with actual genetic results and comparisons with other Middle Eastern groups.
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ren33
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Wow!!

You totally ignored my questions!!
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Memobakes your Qizilbash ancestors forced my ancestors the Sunni Persian Tats to flee from Azerbaijan because they refused to convert to Shiaism. So when they fled they went as far as the Northern Caucasus and even the Crimea. My family adopted the Turkic speech very recently it seems and they are still genetically mostly of Persian blood and as well I have an ass load of Persian and Azeri cousins as well, and Adyghes as well. I match with Iranic population better than Caucasian populations. Well my maternal ancestry is Northern Arabian and were forced by the Wahabis and the British to enter Iraq. You see no one is innocent.

Maronites are an ethnoreligious group much like the Qizilbash.
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Infinite_Ammo
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ren33
Jul 21 2011, 09:17 PM
Wow!!

You totally ignored my questions!!

Your questions are irrelevant. What the hell am I supposed to answer? I'm not here to entertain you.

Your questions were: "Why do you think he was a Syrian nationalist and supported the concept of Greater Syria?" and "Why do you think a Lebanese Maronite would support the idea of Greater Syria"?

Wtf? Can't you see that I'm bored with this conversation? The fact is that most Lebanese Maronites are strongly against the idea of a "Greater Syria", and they see themselves as a distinct ethnic group (which they are). You have no idea about population genetics and are stuck viewing the world through your primitive pre-DNA era perspective.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 21 2011, 09:32 PM.
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DeepSpace9
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Helius
Jul 21 2011, 11:31 AM
memobekes
Jul 21 2011, 11:18 AM
Helius
 
They aren't mixed with non-Middle Eastern (South Asian) elements like Kurds are and they aren't mixed with Negroid elements like Yemenis and other coastal Arabs are. Maronites are more Middle Eastern than most of the people inhabiting the region today.

Stop trolling. I hate to be rude but you're either ignorant when it comes to other ethnic groups or you are just deliberately trolling. "Kurds have South Asian elements". :lol: What a crock of sh!t. I'm Kurdish and you can't tell me where we belong. We are one of the oldest nations in the Near East and trace our ancestry to various tribes including the Medes. You should obviously learn to respect other posters' opinions. I've read all the posts up until now on this thread and all you've done is moan whenever you don't agree with something.

You were already informed that being Maronite does not pertain to ethnicity. You are mixing apples with oranges. We all know very well that most Northern Near Easterners are "Arabicised" but today most identify with Arabic culture including most Arabic-speaking Christians (The Greek Orthodox and Catholic Churches for example). If you don't, then that's your problem, not mine.

Regards.
Anyone who reads this thread will realize that I was provoked by people with axes to grind. Maronite does actually pertain to ethnicity, the Maronite Christians are actually the most indigenous Middle Eastern people without foreign elements and Maronites were able to preserve their heritage.

By the way, why were you upset at me for exposing Kurds and their South Asian ancestry? Kurds have significant levels of South Asian DNA, as you can see from this chart. The Medes were quite mixed racially and so are modern Kurds. Please stop being insecure and embrace it. There's nothing wrong with being Kurdish and having South Asian DNA but accepting it is your problem, not mine.
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First of all the South Asia, represents all of Central Asia as well. For some reason Dodecad does not have Central Asia percantage. The Iranians tribes originated between Turkmenistan-kazakhstan-Tajikistan not south asia. Even Dienekes has said that the South Asian is a combination of ANI (Ancestral North Indian) and ASI (Ancestral South Indian).

Iranians have much higher ANI and small ASI. This is not forgeting the South Iran has some Dravidians living their which would account for the small ASI.

The Proto-Indo-Iranians were a combination of West Asia+North Europe+Central Asia. South Asian among Iranians is mostly ANI, which is basicaly Central Asia.

Kurds compared to other groups as you can see Kurds have higher North European score then Armenians and Lebonans, and even Iranians. Whiles your people have higher African and Semetic score. Not mention these are only based on Kurds from Iraq and not including Kurds who live in Turkey who make 50% of the Kurdish population.

Adygei / Iranians / iraq Kurd/ Armenian / Turks /Lebanese

East European 6.7 / 2.1 / 4.4 / 1.5 / 5.7 / 2.5

West European 15.7 / 5.0 / 5.9 / 1.8 / 5.4 / 1.2

West Asian 62.9 / 45.4 / 41.8 / 57.5 / 45.4 / 32.4

Mediterranean 8.3 / 14.9 / 21.5 / 28.4 / 25.4 / 28.8

Southwest Asian 0.4 / 16.7 / 14.7 / 8.9 / 7.8 / 23.9

South Asian 0.4 / 10.7 / 9.0 / 1.7 / 3.0 / 1.4

Northeast Asian 3.1 / 1.2 / 1.0 / 0.1 / 4.0 / 0.7

Southeast Asian 2.4 / 0.7 / 0.3 / 0.1 / 2.9 / 1.0

East African 0.0 / 0.8 / 0.4 / 0.0 / 0.1 / 3.1

Northwest African 0.1 / 0.3 / 0.6 / 0.0 / 0.1 / 2.2

Paleo African 0.0 / 0.9 / 0.2 / 0.0 / 0.0 / 0.9

My own Dodecad results and I am Kurd who originated in North West Iran. I have 13.9% North European score, which is low and absent among Armenians and Assyians who are the closest neighbours.

East Europe 5.6
West Europe 7.9
West Asian 41.7
South Asian 9.4
Mediterenian 20.1
South West Asian 11.2
North East Asian 2.3
North West African 1
South East Asian 0.3
East African 0.3
Neo African 0.1
Paleo African 0
Edited by DeepSpace9, Jul 24 2011, 02:32 AM.
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Infinite_Ammo
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That's great and all but Kurds still have an extremely high South Asian score compared to other Middle Easterners. Why are you spontaneously bragging about yourself having a "higher Northern Euro score" all the while masking your South Asian ancestry by the way? I'm just pointing out the fact that Kurds aren't real Middle Easterners, they're extremely mixed with foreign influences. Maronites and Assyrians are some of the only true Middle Easterners, their foreign non-Middle Eastern influence is quite low in comparison to other populations in the area.
Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 02:49 AM.
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DeepSpace9
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Jul 24 2011, 02:47 AM
That's great and all but Kurds still have an extremely high South Asian score compared to other Middle Easterners. Why are you spontaneously bragging about Kurds supposedly having a "higher Northern Euro score" all the while masking your South Asian ancestry by the way? I'm just pointing out the fact that Kurds aren't real Middle Easterners, they're extremely mixed with foreign influences. Maronites and Assyrians are some of the only true Middle Easterners, their foreign non-Middle Eastern influence is quite low in comparison to other populations in the area.
This because people think South Asian on Dodecad = South Asia, this is not the case. The difference between ANI and ASI is like the difference between North West African and West African, but on Dodecad ANI and ASI for some reason are combined. I believe that the south asian among Iranians and Kurds is Central Asian.

It does not matter if Kurds are not true middle-easteners, people always move about and mix and build empires. Assyrians are for example semetic people who originated in South West Asia and moved to the north and mixed with the Caucasian people. All because they were present in the ME a bit longer then the Iranic people does not mean anything. Everyone was from somewhere else at one point.

For the record the Iranic tribes were present in the ME for atleast 3000 years now.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Jul 24 2011, 03:01 AM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 02:47 AM
That's great and all but Kurds still have an extremely high South Asian score compared to other Middle Easterners. Why are you spontaneously bragging about Kurds supposedly having a "higher Northern Euro score" all the while masking your South Asian ancestry by the way? I'm just pointing out the fact that Kurds aren't real Middle Easterners, they're extremely mixed with foreign influences. Maronites and Assyrians are some of the only true Middle Easterners, their foreign non-Middle Eastern influence is quite low in comparison to other populations in the area.
This because people think South Asian on Dodecad = South Asia, this is not the case. The difference between ANI and ASI is like the difference between North West African and West African, but on Dodecad ANI and ASI for some reason are combined. I believe that the south asian among Iranians and Kurds is Central Asian.

It does not matter if Kurds are not true middle-easteners, people always move about and mix and build empires. Assyrians are for example semetic people who originated in South West Asia and moved to the north and mixed with the Caucasian people. All because they were present in the ME a bit longer then the Iranic people does not mean anything. Everyone was from somewhere else at one point.

For the record the Iranic tribes were present in the ME for atleast 3000 years now.
Assyrians didn't originate in Southwest Asia. Their homeland is Northern Iraq which last time I checked was the Fertile Crescent. Fertile Crescent=Western Asia. By the way the scores you posted regarding Lebanese certainly weren't representative of Maronites. It's a well known fact that Muslim Levantines have higher foreign European and Arab mixture than Maronites who are more indigenous to the area, so of course that will affect their score. Anyway, I said what I wanted to say and memobekes was quite exposed by me for his insolence commenting about Maronites.
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DeepSpace9
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:06 AM
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Jul 24 2011, 03:01 AM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 02:47 AM
That's great and all but Kurds still have an extremely high South Asian score compared to other Middle Easterners. Why are you spontaneously bragging about Kurds supposedly having a "higher Northern Euro score" all the while masking your South Asian ancestry by the way? I'm just pointing out the fact that Kurds aren't real Middle Easterners, they're extremely mixed with foreign influences. Maronites and Assyrians are some of the only true Middle Easterners, their foreign non-Middle Eastern influence is quite low in comparison to other populations in the area.
This because people think South Asian on Dodecad = South Asia, this is not the case. The difference between ANI and ASI is like the difference between North West African and West African, but on Dodecad ANI and ASI for some reason are combined. I believe that the south asian among Iranians and Kurds is Central Asian.

It does not matter if Kurds are not true middle-easteners, people always move about and mix and build empires. Assyrians are for example semetic people who originated in South West Asia and moved to the north and mixed with the Caucasian people. All because they were present in the ME a bit longer then the Iranic people does not mean anything. Everyone was from somewhere else at one point.

For the record the Iranic tribes were present in the ME for atleast 3000 years now.
Assyrians didn't originate in Southwest Asia. Their homeland is Northern Iraq which last time I checked was the Fertile Crescent. Fertile Crescent=Western Asia. By the way the scores you posted regarding Lebanese certainly weren't representative of Maronites. It's a well known fact that Muslim Levantines have higher foreign European and Arab mixture than Maronites who are more indigenous to the area, so of course that will affect their score. Anyway, I said what I wanted to say and memobekes was quite exposed by me for his insolence commenting about Maronites.
The semetic languages originated in the south. Todays Assyrians descend from people who were Caucasians who had mixed with the semetic speakers that came from the south and then later built the Assyrian empire.
Edited by DeepSpace9, Jul 24 2011, 03:22 AM.
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zeta
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We have to go really far back to know what happened to tribes all around the mediterranean sea. It is possible that they were all caucasians originally and then they mixed with the slave classes and took on their language but sometimes the mixed phenotypes take on the language of their rulers.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Jul 24 2011, 03:15 AM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:06 AM
StarDS9
Jul 24 2011, 03:01 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Assyrians didn't originate in Southwest Asia. Their homeland is Northern Iraq which last time I checked was the Fertile Crescent. Fertile Crescent=Western Asia. By the way the scores you posted regarding Lebanese certainly weren't representative of Maronites. It's a well known fact that Muslim Levantines have higher foreign European and Arab mixture than Maronites who are more indigenous to the area, so of course that will affect their score. Anyway, I said what I wanted to say and memobekes was quite exposed by me for his insolence commenting about Maronites.
The semetic languages originated in the south. Todays Assyrians descend from people who were Caucasians who had mixed with the semetic speakers that came from the south and then later built the Assyrian empire.
You've got it all wrong. In ancient times it was the ancestors of Assyrians and other northern Middle Easterners that influenced people in the south, not the other way around.

Anyway there's a clear difference between Afro-asiatic and Semitic which is just a branch and many other people often use them interchangeably, which they shouldn't. Semitic languages originated in the Levant.
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Edited by Infinite_Ammo, Jul 24 2011, 03:32 AM.
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I do not want to disturb you two but I have to ask a question.

Helius define what you mean with true "Middle Eastern". You deny the northern Middle East origin of Kurds just because of some insignificant percentage of South Asian and at the same time you claim a northern Mesopotamian heritage of Assyrians even though they have higher Southwest Asian. How do you explain that?
Edited by Coolio, Jul 24 2011, 03:50 AM.
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DeepSpace9
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Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:31 AM
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Jul 24 2011, 03:15 AM
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Jul 24 2011, 03:06 AM

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The semetic languages originated in the south. Todays Assyrians descend from people who were Caucasians who had mixed with the semetic speakers that came from the south and then later built the Assyrian empire.
You've got it all wrong. In ancient times it was the ancestors of Assyrians and other northern Middle Easterners that influenced people in the south, not the other way around.

Anyway there's a clear difference between Afro-asiatic and Semitic which is just a branch and many other people often use them interchangeably, which they shouldn't. Semitic languages originated in the Levant.

Like you said your self, the Levant is homeland of the Semetic languages, Semetic people who moved to the north and mixed with the Caucasians, which the reason why Assyrians cluster close to Caucasians. And also Mesopotamia is not the Levant.

Kurds are on the same boat they are a mix of Caucasians and Iranian tribes which is why Kurds also cluster more closer to Caucasians then to Central Asians like Afghans. And have just as much wright to claim indapendence. Assyrians themselves also deserve a nation.
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Infinite_Ammo
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Jul 24 2011, 03:51 AM
Helius
Jul 24 2011, 03:31 AM
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Jul 24 2011, 03:15 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You've got it all wrong. In ancient times it was the ancestors of Assyrians and other northern Middle Easterners that influenced people in the south, not the other way around.

Anyway there's a clear difference between Afro-asiatic and Semitic which is just a branch and many other people often use them interchangeably, which they shouldn't. Semitic languages originated in the Levant.

Like you said your self, the Levant is homeland of the Semetic languages, Semetic people who moved to the north and mixed with the Caucasians, which the reason why Assyrians cluster close to Caucasians. And also Mesopotamia is not the Levant.

Kurds are on the same boat they are a mix of Caucasians and Iranian tribes which is why Kurds also cluster more closer to Caucasians then to Central Asians like Afghans. And have just as much wright to claim indapendence. Assyrians themselves also deserve a nation.
But the Levant isn't Southwest Asia, it's West Asia so I guess we just had a bit of confusion when you referred to it as SW Asia because that's the Arabian peninsula. I agree that Kurds should have a state of their own, but not in the ancient Assyrian homeland as I believe the Assyrians have much more of a claim to that area.
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