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Where is R1b coming from?
Topic Started: Jun 3 2011, 10:47 PM (4,177 Views)
Lakedweller
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The steppe cultures of Westeurasia seem mostly R1a (Indoeuropean or not), LBK and other Danubian neolithic cultures were made up from quiet a lot of different haplogroups (except R1b).
Cardial Impressa Culture is also not a formidable candidate, Corded Ware seems mostly R1a, Bellbeaker Ydna I (whatever type).

So where the hell is the most common Haplogroup in western Europe coming from?
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zeta
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It may have just started from western Europe or arrived there from Africa.
This is Dinarid. If they don't look like this, then they ain't Dinarid.
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Euskal kubatarrak
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zeta
Jun 4 2011, 03:35 AM
It may have just started from western Europe or arrived there from Africa.
It is very unlikely that R1b or R-P25 originated in Western Europe, R-M269 which is the parental clade of the Western European subclades, could have either originated in Western Asia, or the Balkans. Now most likely its entrance time to Europe was before that of R1a, or J, or E, because it got washed away, while it exists in almost every single European country, its frequencies in Eastern Europe decay very sharply compared to some parts of Western Europe, indicating that new waves washed away the rich R-M269 regions. Now to assume that R1b might have arrived from Africa is downright laughable, starting with the fact that the most common African R1b clade is R-V88 not R-M269, and the very few R-M269 found in North Africa are mainly Iberian derived as it is very evident in the study done by Adams et al(2008), all North African clades are derived from Iberian ones.

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IMO, R1b-M269 was already present in Europe before the Neolithic colonization, but I would be interested to see the Y-DNA Haplogroups of populations that had a Hunter-Gathering culture rather than farming culture. I do not think R1b is going to resurface in farming cultures. However there was some sort of reexpansion to brought a lot of R1b-M269 back into farming areas, perhaps it was the Bell-Beakers, who knows.

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Jocelyne Desideri examined the teeth in skeletons from Bell Beaker sites in Northern Spain, Southern France, Switzerland, the Czech Republic and Hungary for her thesis. Looking at inherited dental traits, she found that only in Northern Spain and the Czech Republic were there demonstrable genetic links between immediately previous populations and Bell Beaker populations. Elsewhere there was a genetic discontinuity


So who knows perhaps there was a population replacement during the Bell Beaker period, or at least heavy population exchange, and the current distribution of R1b-M269 today is the result of the initial colonization from West Asian steppes during the Paleolithic/Mesolithic, plus a leapfrog colonization afterwards in the West. It is evident that R1b-U106 was already present in a Bronze Age Lichtenstein Cave 3000 ybp, so R1b-M269 seems to enter the picture there. I doubt it was brought over by IndoEuropean speakers, because so far Corded Ware has turned out to be R1a, and the Steppes seem to be also R1a, so it must have come much earlier than that, also its highest frequencies occurs amongst nonIndo-European speakers. The advancing wave theory doesn't explain why R1b-M269 is so relatively low in Galicia, Asturias or Cantabria, given that they all would be in the Atlantic region deemed the point of saturation. Like I said, whenever it came, it did so before E, J, G, and all others "Neolithic" Haplogroups.

Edited by Euskal kubatarrak, Jun 4 2011, 04:16 AM.
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Crimson Guard
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Lakedweller
Jun 3 2011, 10:47 PM
The steppe cultures of Westeurasia seem mostly R1a (Indoeuropean or not), LBK and other Danubian neolithic cultures were made up from quiet a lot of different haplogroups (except R1b).
Cardial Impressa Culture is also not a formidable candidate, Corded Ware seems mostly R1a, Bellbeaker Ydna I (whatever type).

So where the hell is the most common Haplogroup in western Europe coming from?
It came out've Turkey, and likely originated in what is now Iraq or Iran.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA).jpg
Edited by Crimson Guard, Jun 4 2011, 04:21 AM.
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Euskal kubatarrak
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I don't think Anatolia is the entrance route of R1b-M269 into Europe, if it was then R1b-M269 would be more diverse in Anatolia than in Europe, however as one can see in the table done by Balaresque et al(2009) (the one that argued the Neolithic entrance of R1b-M269 into Europe) R1b-M269 is more diverse(i.e has an older TMRCA) in France than in Western Anatolia, the putative entrance route into Europe.

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So R1b-M269 has an older TMRCA in Central Anatolia, however in both Western and Eastern Anatolia it has younger TMRCA than Europeans such as Frenchs, so unless those Central Anatolians magically teleported to France and Germany, it means that the source of European R1b-M269 isn't Turkey, but most likely the Northern Caucasus.
Edited by Euskal kubatarrak, Jun 4 2011, 04:43 AM.
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Lakedweller
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Euskal kubatarrak

So who knows perhaps there was a population replacement during the Bell Beaker period, or at least heavy population exchange, and the current distribution of R1b-M269 today is the result of the initial colonization from West Asian steppes during the Paleolithic/Mesolithic, plus a leapfrog colonization afterwards in the West.

I´ve read a paper recently which also argued for a Bell Beaker origin for Europe, some of the stuff seems pretty ridicolous, but the time frame would be about right if you accept the genealogical timeframe for R-M269 (as opposed to the germline rate.)

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_70/10723000/10723072/1/print/10723072.pdf

Edited by Lakedweller, Jun 5 2011, 02:40 PM.
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Euskal kubatarrak
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Lakedweller
Jun 5 2011, 02:32 PM
Euskal kubatarrak

So who knows perhaps there was a population replacement during the Bell Beaker period, or at least heavy population exchange, and the current distribution of R1b-M269 today is the result of the initial colonization from West Asian steppes during the Paleolithic/Mesolithic, plus a leapfrog colonization afterwards in the West.

I´ve read a paper recently which also argued for a Bell Beaker origin for Europe, some of the stuff seems pretty ridicolous, but the time frame would be about right if you accept the genealogical timeframe for R-M269 (as opposed to the germline rate.)

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_70/10723000/10723072/1/print/10723072.pdf

Well at least we know that Bell Beaker was a local phenomenon in Northern Iberia, and Bavaria, because there seems to be continuity between pre-Bell Beakers and Bell Beakers there.

Lakedweller
 
I´ve read a paper recently which also argued for a Bell Beaker origin for Europe, some of the stuff seems pretty ridicolous, but the time frame would be about right if you accept the genealogical timeframe for R-M269 (as opposed to the germline rate.)

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_70/10723000/10723072/1/print/10723072.pdf


Yeah unfortunately that researcher Anatole Klyosov has a heavy political bias against Basques, so I would take his conclusions with a grain of salt. He does claim that all R-M269 bearers originated in Altai and were Turkic speakers that only arrived to Europe 3000-4000 ybp via North Africa, and spread from Iberia as the Bell Beakers. However as you can see in Adams et al(2008) STR figure, North African R-M269 are derived from Iberia ones, not the other way around. The sample he used for one of his initial research about mutation rates is also flawed, since he took it from the FTDNA Basque Project, which isn't exactly random or representative of Basques. Another thing that shows that he is politically biased, is his following conclusions:

Klyosov et al.2009
 
The data show that all three populations, including the Basques, are likely to be descendents from the same common ancestor of the R1b1b2-M269 haplogroup. The principal conclusion is that the male Basques living today have rather recent roots of less than four thousand years, contrary to legend that proposes they lived some 30,000 years ago. Despite the ancient language, it is very likely that the present day Basques represent a rather recent Iberian population, in terms of DNA genealogy. It is very unlikely that their ancestors had encountered Neanderthals in Europe or had been associated with the Aurignacian culture (34,000-23,000 ybp), nor did they make sophisticated cave paintings in South of France, Spain, and Portugal. Arguably, the Basque ancient and unique language was brought to Iberia around 3600 ybp by the M269 bearers from their place of preceding location(s) and/or their origin, presumably in Asia. The origin of R1b1b2, however, is beyond the scope of this study, and will be discussed in more detail elsewhere.


I do not think his Methodology was correct, and I could demonstrate why it is not correct. Also his sample was far from representative of Basques instead being from a comercial DNA company's project, which was mainly made up of people from the New World with known Basque ancestry, or a Basque surname. The problem is that Dr.Klyosov isn't a Geneticist, he is a Chemist, he does have a PhD, however it is in Chemistry. Most likely since he couldn't get any funding for such a research project, he had to rely on what he thought were random, representative samples of Basques. Unfortunately if he had a little bit of knowledge of Basques Haplogroups profile, he wouldn't had said the following:

Klyosov et al(2008)
 
The Basque DNA Project (Cervantes, 2008) lists 76 haplotypes which belong to Haplogroups E1b1a, E3b1a, E3b1b2, G2, I, I1b, I2a, J1, J2, R1a and R1b1, and their downstream haplogroups and subclades. Of this grouping of haplotypes, 44 haplotypes (or 58% of total), belong to subclades R1b1 (one haplotype), R1b1b2a (three haplotypes), and R1b1b2 (40 haplotypes, or 91%).


Any other studies done by people who actually sampled individuals from the Basque Country, has revealed that Basque are very high in R-M269(i.e >83%), then followed by I-M170, and sometimes E-M81 shows up on the 1-3% range. Hence this "Basque" sample, seems to be unlike any other sample ever studied, given the great variety of Haplogroups, and even the low amount of R1b1; of course, that is irrelevant to Klyosov, as his main point is to prove the young age of R1b1b2, not whether his sample might be accurate or not. Anyhow, even if he was indeed correct in all his assumptions, and R-M269 came from somewhere to Europe just 3000-4000 ybp, that does not imply in any way, that those people brought Euskera, or that Basques are not the descendants of the Aurignacian Europeans that met Neanderthal or drew cave paintings. This guy seems to forget that most of the mt-DNA Haplogroups in Basques are of European Paleolithic origin, and that Basque society was matrilinear, so for all we know, it was the invaders who adopted the local language, of course, it is simpler to ignore the big contradictory facts and go ahead with the theory, that approach is known as an Ad Hoc approach. Is it any wonder not a single Geneticist co-authored the paper with him, and that the paper did not make it to any known Scientific Journal?

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Lakedweller
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Euskal kubatarrak
 
Yeah unfortunately that researcher Anatole Klyosov has a heavy political bias against Basques, so I would take his conclusions with a grain of salt. He does claim that all R-M269 bearers originated in Altai and were Turkic speakers that only arrived to Europe 3000-4000 ybp via North Africa, and spread from Iberia as the Bell Beakers.

The Bell Beakers would make sense insofar as the borders between them and Corded Ware nowadays accord roughly with the borders between R1b and R1a. If there was mass migration of Bell Beaker folk at that time is a matter of discussion at the moment. Remains of skeletons with planocipetal craniums indicate at least a certain amount of migration.

The more I read about the Bell Beakers, the more a relationship with R1b seems reasonable.
If not all the timeframes for R1b are way of and R1b came in the Paleolithic.
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Euskal kubatarrak
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Jun 6 2011, 08:32 PM
The Bell Beakers would make sense insofar as the borders between them and Corded Ware nowadays accord roughly with the borders between R1b and R1a. If there was mass migration of Bell Beaker folk at that time is a matter of discussion at the moment. Remains of skeletons with planocipetal craniums indicate at least a certain amount of migration.

The more I read about the Bell Beakers, the more a relationship with R1b seems reasonable.
If not all the timeframes for R1b are way of and R1b came in the Paleolithic.
It could be possible that R1b-M269 took refuge in several places along the Atlantic and Iberian peninsula to escape the Neolithic expansion wave, and about 3000-5000 years ago the Bell Beaker culture, which seems to be a local phenomenon in Northern Spain, exploded and brought R1b-S116 back to Atlantic Central Europe. The only question that remains is R1b-U106, although it would make sense if those took refuge in Scandinavia, and then expanded out to Europe with the Germanic expansions. Actually, when I think of it that way it makes a lot of sense. In fact that would be why G2a seems to have an older TMRCA than most R1b-M269 in Europe. This is my theory so far:

R1b-M269 enters Europe via the Steppes sometime between the Aurignacian Period and the Mesolithic. The expansion of Agriculturist of mainly G2a drives all this small groups of hunter-gatherers to refuges, some of them took refuge in the Pyrenees, some took refuge in the Atlatic coast of France, and some took refuge in Northern Europe. Then 3000-5000 years ago the Bell Beaker took place, and a lot of heavy population exchange brought back Rb1-S116 in the forms of R1b-S116* probably from Southern France, Northern Italy and Northern Spain, and perhaps R1b-U152 developed from a group of R1b-S116 that took refuge somewhere in Atlantic Central Europe. In this scenario one would expect for G2a to have a more ancient TMRCA than R1b, since almost all the R1b in Europe descends from small pockets of man that expanded 3000-4000 years ago. Then R-U106 was probably brought to the rest of Europe from the Germanic expansions, but it was already present in a Bronze Age sample from Liechtenstein. I think I-M170 was probably dominant in the Balkans and they probably joined in the agriculturist who brought G2a, which would make sense given that the French Neolithic sample was G2a and I2a. Other haplogroups such as J1, J2, E1b1b and T expand later via the Mediterranean trading. I think R1a probably came to Europe from the Steppes perhaps 3000-4000 years ago, and diminished all the G2a rich population of Eastern-Central Europe.
Edited by Euskal kubatarrak, Jun 6 2011, 09:27 PM.
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zeta
Jun 4 2011, 03:35 AM
It may have just started from western Europe or arrived there from Africa.
impossible. Otherwise R1* and its ancestors had to be found in Europe too. It most probably originated in West Asia. To be more specific in the western Caucasus .
Edited by Che, Jun 6 2011, 10:01 PM.
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Complete R1b data from the "YHRD" database, indicated that, after an earlier existence in Asian Khazakstan, all European variants of R1b shared an existence in Russia ( in the region of Kazan, on the Volga river at about 55° North and 50° East), and that, later they separated and expanded into two major migrations ( a westward migration to the Russian-Baltic region, and a south-western migration to the Black Sea area and then further, westwards, to the Alpine-South German region). Eventually, a North Sea-Baltic migration evolved from the Russian-Baltic expansion; and an Atlantic migration evolved from the Alpine-South German variant.



Baltic--Russian R1b:
Research showed that the greatest diversity of R1b's DYS 390 locus is within the Russian-Baltic region. The data suggested that the Russian-Baltic variant migrated/expanded from the Kazan region of Russia westwards to Moscow, and then to the Baltic States of Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia & Poland.

In this Baltic-Russian area, a sample of 159 haplotypes showed the R1b DYS390 percentages to be:



DYS 390=25. 28.9%;

DYS 390=24. 32.7%;

DYS 390=23. 32.1%;

DYS 390=22. 3.1%



Diversity: 68.6% (²)



North Sea-Baltic R1b:

Within the North Sea-Baltic area (Northern Germany, Denmark, Netherlands and
Norway) a sample of 1,227 haplotypes showed the R1b DYS390 percentages to be:



DYS 390=25... 10.1%.

DYS 390=24... 46.6%.

DYS 390=23... 38.1%.

DYS 390=22... 3.7%.



Diversity: 61.5% (²)



These percentages were less diverse than in the Russian-Baltic area - supporting the likelihood of an R1b migration/expansion from east to west along the Baltic coast. The coastal parts of the North Sea-Baltic region had more R1b diversity than in Norway and in the (German) Elbe river cities, indicating a further migration - from "Greater Frisia"(³) northwards to Norway and southwards into the Saxon lands alongside the Elbe.(4) Ultimately, North Sea-Baltic R1bs invaded England and other parts of British Isles during the period 450 to 1,000AD as part of the Germanic-speaking Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking invasion forces.



Alpine-South German R1b:
Analysis of the Yhrd data for this region indicates a migration/expansion path from Kiev (Ukraine - Russia), westwards along the River Danube (2,850 km), and north/westwards along the Rhine (1,320 km) to the North Sea. Politically, this whole region includes today's Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Austria and Switzerland, Rhineland Germany, and Southern Holland. Except for the exception given below, a sample of 1,296 haplotypes revealed the R1b percentages for this region were uniform at:



DYS 390=25... 8.3%.

DYS 390=24... 57.9%.

DYS 390=23... 30.1%.

DYS 390=22... 2.6%.



Diversity: 55.7% (²)



With the Alpine-South German group, a small sub-sample of 122 haplotypes in the eastern Danube area, showed only 53% DYS390 =24, and 13% for DYS 390=25. This higher diversity supported the notion of a migration path of the Alpine-South German group from the east, and its heightened DYS390=25 in the eastern Danube area suggests that this variant may well have split from the Russian-Baltic variant near to its source in central Russia.



Atlantic R1b:
This variant is found on the Atlantic coast, in Iberia, France and in the more remote parts of Ireland and Scotland. In order to obtain more accurate data on the
aboriginal/indigenous Scots/Irish, data was extracted from Capelli et al, (5) for Pitlochry and Oban in the Scots Highlands, and from Castlereigh in Central Ireland.

In the Atlantic region, R1b's DYS=390 showed the least diversity. A sample of 1,516 haplotypes showed its R1b's DYS390 percentages to be:



DYS 390=25... 10.4%.

DYS 390=24... 69.7%.

DYS 390=23... 17.8%.

DYS 390=22... 1.1%.



Diversity: 46.1% (²)



The origin of this sub-population is unclear, but its lack of DYS390 diversity makes it the "youngest" R1b in Europe. Some data suggested that it may have split from the Alpine-South German variant in the region of Albania, and then subsequently expanded, westwards, along the Mediterranean coast to Iberia.

Methodology:

The YHRD R1b sub-populations were identified by carrying out a geographic search based on the selection of DYS 392=13, within Europe. A repeat geographical selection, selecting DYS392=13 and combining it, alternatively, with DYS390=25,24,23 & 22 revealed the frequencies of each of DYS390's alleles. After analysis, these were aggregated into the four variant groups. The frequencies of DYS390=26 and 21 were so low that they could be ignored as being statistically irrelevant to this study.

The age of R1b?

If the allele DYS390=24 was the original modal value for all four R1b variants, then the Russian-Baltic group has been mutating either at least twice-as-long or twice-as-fast as the Atlantic one. About 30% of the Atlantic group's DYS390 does not have an allele of 24, while within the Russian-Baltic group this figure increases to 68%. Perhaps the Russian-Baltic variant never did have the well-known Atlantic Modal Haplotype where DYS390=24. But in either case, the difference in allele frquencies highlights that the populations are not homogenous. Differing alleles at the same locus position can be measured to show how diverse is the locus, and such increased locus diversity is a sign of a population's increased age (since its foundation or since it was isolated with a reduced amount of genetic diversity).

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Euskal kubatarrak
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Che
Jun 6 2011, 09:56 PM
impossible. Otherwise R1* and its ancestors had to be found in Europe too. It most probably originated in West Asia. To be more specific in the western Caucasus .
You do know R1* has been found in Europe right? R-M173* has been found in Europe, anyways, even if the place of origin of R-M173* is Western Asia, and the ultimate place of origin of R1b-M269 is on the Western Caucasus, it most likely then entered Europe via the the Steppes not Anatolia, however the big question is when it entered Europe? The model I just postulated would explain the currect situation of R1b-M269 distribution in Europe.

@husaria. Interesting postulate: I take it, you got it from here:

http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r1b_ydna_in_europe

But keep in mind those postulates are based on 4 STR, and that not only STR but SNP have to be taken into account when analyzing the origin of R1b-M269 in Europe.
Edited by Euskal kubatarrak, Jun 6 2011, 10:23 PM.
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Euskal kubatarrak
Jun 6 2011, 10:14 PM
Che
Jun 6 2011, 09:56 PM
impossible. Otherwise R1* and its ancestors had to be found in Europe too. It most probably originated in West Asia. To be more specific in the western Caucasus .
You do know R1* has been found in Europe right? R-M173* has been found in Europe, anyways, even if the place of origin of R-M173* is Western Asia, and the ultimate place of origin of R1b-M269 is on the Western Caucasus, it most likely then entered Europe via the the Steppes not Anatolia, however the big question is when it entered Europe? The model I just postulated would explain the currect situation of R1b-M269 distribution in Europe.
No I didn´t know that. Do you have a source for this? And it doesen´t matter if R1b entered Europe via Anatolia or via the Steppes. If it originated in the Caucasus than the People living there were not much different from those living on Anatolia. Your only Problem seems to be to accept a connection between West Asia and Europe. You even try to play the connection down by placing the origin of Neolthic Europe in the Balkans. Of course they entered Europe via the Balkans how else did they moved from East to West? Dude get over it You guys did not came out of heaven.
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There seems to be differences in R1b.
With the Atlantid / Atlanto Mediterannean phenotype in Iberia & Into the British Isles.
It seems to overlap with Keltic Nordic in the British Isles & the Netherlands.

But, Then in France, Italy, South Germany ect.

The R1b people seem to have more Alpine, Dinaric, Noric mixed in.

Then North Germany & Denmark seem to have a Borreby R1b type typically.

I have read Borreby is the Mechta Afalou type of Cro Magnon.

It is very confusing.

I tend to think British Islanders come from Iberia as the genetics & phenotype both suggest.

So I think the roots of the Atlantid, Keltic Nordic & Borreby R1b areas tend to be Mechta Afalou.

But, I tend to think R1b of the Alpine type is split & porbably what R1b people looked more like before they split off as Mechta Afalou.

There is R1b & Alpines in Anatolia.
It is suggested R1b came from Anatolia & went to Europe. I think the Alpine types are more of the original R1b people.

While Iberians & British Isles are more of a Mechta Afalou type of R1b.

I think it is most logical to say R1b people who became Iberians & Brits were the Solutrean people.

This fits with the Basques who have the highest R1b haplogroups, The highest O negative blood type & the Lowest B & AB blood types in Europe.

Of course Basques don't speak an Indo-European language.

So, To me Basques seem to be untouched mechta afalou.

British Islanders have more B & AB blood types & Less O Negative Blood types probably due to the Kurgan Expansion of Celtic peoples into Britain & Mixing with Vikings.

The idea that R1b people came from Anatolia a few thousand years ago seems crock.

How else did Basques remain over 86 percent R1b with exessive O Negative blood types & Very low B & Ab blood types.

Some are saying R1b came to Europe as little as 3,000 years ago. This seems to stupid.

I mean if that is the case how did Basques remain so isolated & different with such a different language?
Edited by husaria, Jun 6 2011, 10:35 PM.
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Euskal kubatarrak
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Che
Jun 6 2011, 10:25 PM
No I didn´t know that. Do you have a source for this?
Sure no problem brother:

Adams et al(2008)

Posted Image

Do you see that 1 R-M173* aka R1* in Andalucia West (n=73). Do you see those 3 R-P25* or R1b* in Valencia. Yeah they exists alright. Anyways check out Alonso et al(2005) study on Basques, and you will see R-M173* is also present in yet another Iberian sample.

Che
 
And it doesen´t matter if R1b entered Europe via Anatolia or via the Steppes.


Of course it makes a differences genius, if it entered Europe via the Steppes, then it means it must have entered Europe during the Bronze Age expansions, or with the Aurignacian culture, I favor the last one with a recent leapfrog colonization via the BellBeakers and the Germanic and Celtic tribes. So far ironically the only person to argue a star-like expansion from Anatolia, is the one who has provided the data that goes against Anatolia being the point of entrance.

Balaresque et al(2009)

Posted Image

Let's see TMRCA in France-Baie de Somme 7384 ybp, TMRCA in Germany-Bavaria 7282 ybp, TMRCA in Western Turkey 7304 ybp, so how exactly did they those people from Central Turkey TMRCA 7989 ybp got to France and Germany before they got to Western Turkey, the putative way of entrance into the Balkans. Did they go thru Eastern Turkey? Apparently not, because the TMRCA in Eastern Turkey is 7000 ybp. So what is the answer teleportation, ancient airplanes, or perhaps that Turkey/Anatolia was not the source of R-M269 in Western Europe. I'm not a big fan of genealogical mutation rates, or TMRCA, but as you can see according to Balaresque et al(2009), the most recent ancestors of the R-M269 carriers from France-Baie de Somme lived much earlier than that of Eastern and Western Anatolians.

Quote:
 
If it originated in the Caucasus than the People living there were not much different from those living on Anatolia. Your only Problem seems to be to accept a connection between West Asia and Europe. You even try to play the connection down by placing the origin of Neolthic Europe in the Balkans. Of course they entered Europe via the Balkans how else did they moved from East to West? Dude get over it You guys did not came out of heaven.


I'm just going to ignore the statement above as it doesn't make much sense, and take it as a vague attempt of an Ad Hominem.

Edited by Euskal kubatarrak, Jun 6 2011, 10:46 PM.
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Euskal kubatarrak
Jun 6 2011, 10:41 PM


I'm just going to ignore the statement above as it doesn't make much sense, and take it as a vague attempt of an Ad Hominem.

Aha so what on my statement does not make sense? "That Caucasian People descend from Anatolian People which moved into the Caucasus and so it makes no difference if the R1b component came from Caucasus or Anatolia"? So why does this not make sense you genius?
So what is your point exactly? That R1b might originated in Europe, or that the Caucasian Groups which might be the source where different from Anatolians. And to your Question. I have a Question too. So how did these older R1b arrived in Central Anatolia when to the East and West they are younger?

between dude. I did even placed the origin of R1b in the Caucasus. But you found it important to mention that they came via Black Sea to feed as usual your "clean European" fetish. And I did just mentioned that it makes no difference in question of Genetics cause the Caucasians themselves were and are mainly descend of Pastors and Farmers from Anatolia, Iran, Mesopotamia.
Edited by Che, Jun 6 2011, 11:06 PM.
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R1b was born in Southwest Asia
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Euskal kubatarrak
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Che
Jun 6 2011, 10:56 PM
Euskal kubatarrak
Jun 6 2011, 10:41 PM


I'm just going to ignore the statement above as it doesn't make much sense, and take it as a vague attempt of an Ad Hominem.

Aha so what on my statement does not make sense? "That Caucasian People descend from Anatolian People which moved into the Caucasus and so it makes no difference if the R1b component came from Caucasus or Anatolia"? So why does this not make sense you genius?
So what is your point exactly? That R1b might originated in Europe, or that the Caucasian Groups which might be the source where different from Anatolians.
Well since you insist in me interpreting your statement, let me break it down for you:

You said:
Che
 
If it originated in the Caucasus than the People living there were not much different from those living on Anatolia.


Whether the modern day people of the Caucasus originated from Anatolia or not is irrelevant, although I would like to see some proof that the modern day people of the Northern Caucasus and Western Russia come from Anatolia. What the hell makes you think that people 20,000 years ago from the Northern Caucasus and Anatolia are the same, you got some sort of proof that I've been missing all along. My point was that if R-M269 originated outside of Europe then it was there, not in Anatolia. The ancestral haplogroup R1* is thought to be from Central Asia, so there is no way it could have come from Anatolia. Anyhow all Europeans have an origin outside of Europe ultimately, so your point is moot.

Che
 
Your only Problem seems to be to accept a connection between West Asia and Europe. You even try to play the connection down by placing the origin of Neolthic Europe in the Balkans. Of course they entered Europe via the Balkans how else did they moved from East to West? Dude get over it You guys did not came out of heaven.


Now that is what I called a vague attempt of an Ad Hominem, I don't have any problem accepting anything, cut the crap, and stop it with the Ad Hominems. You said that I placed the origin of "Neolthic Europe" (sic) in the Balkans, well, I say this to you, why don't you quote the part where I say such thing.

Che
 
And to your Question. I have a Question too. So how did these older R1b arrived in Central Anatolia when to the East and West they are younger?


Mmmm perhaps it could be because the whole TMRCA methodology is flawed, and the different STRs do not all mutate at the same speed. Anyhow, Anatolia nowadays isn't exactly a carbon copy genetically of what it was just 2000 years ago, so for all we know those people from Central Anatolia descend from an older migration of R-M269, or an older layer, while the sample tested on the other sides descend from younger layers. Here is something:

Balaresque et al(2009)

Posted Image

As you can see the vast majority of ancestral Haplotypes(i.e. That have the ancestral STR configuration) are not from Anatolia but from Europe, and most Anatolian branches are derived from a Sub-branch which has about 5 or 6 Iberian Haplotypes in it, however, the vast majority of European Haplotypes derive from the main Branch, which there isn't any indication it originated in Anatolia. Anyhow while the previous figure may look star-like, the addition of a single marker DYSA7.2 dramatically changes the shape of the R-M269 network into a topology showing a clear Western-Eastern dichotomy not consistent with a radial diffusion of people from the Middle East :

Posted Image

Che
 
between dude. I did even placed the origin of R1b in the Caucasus. But you found it important to mention that they came via Black Sea to feed as usual your "clean European" fetish. And I did just mentioned that it makes no difference in question of Genetics cause the Caucasians themselves were and are mainly descend of Pastors and Farmers from Anatolia, Iran, Mesopotamia.


Again is that all the Garbage you can come back with, Ad Hominems, why do you keep talking about these "clean European" fetish, Ad Hominems =/= evidence buddy, go read some studies, and stop accusing people of whatever comes to your mind. Again whether the modern day people of the Northern Caucasus descend from Farmers from Anatolia, Iran or Mesopotamia is irrelevant to the people from the Northern Caucasus 20,000-30,000 years ago, because there wasn't even such thing as farming back then. You still do not get that what I'm saying is that R1b-M269 most likely entered Europe via the Steppes with the Aurignacian culture, and that it probably was driven to almost extintion by the incoming farmers, who were carriers of G2a, and probably took refuge in several places inside of Europe, from where they expanded recently in different waves, hence why it is a leapfrog colonization, and why it doesn't turn up in Neolithic sites from 9000 ybp to 5000 ybp yet it was found as R1b-U106 in a Cave from the Bronze Age 3000 ybp in Liechtenstein. Anyways here is something else I previously wrote from Myres et al.2010 data:

In Myres et al(2010) Table-S2 the authors list the following diversity values for people who had R-M269(xL23) meaning R-M269*.
Place------------N-----------TD-----------SE-----------Average Variance
Romania--------5---------7.246-------2.415---------------0.190
Turkey---------10--------9.058--------2.370---------------0.228
Total------------31------11.173--------2.386---------------0.251

As one can see Turkey isn't the place that has the highest variance or oldest TD(in ybp), this means that the other 16 people who had R-M269* had a higher variance than Turkey did, because the average variance for the total sample 0.251 is higher than that of Turkey or Romania. A quick look at Table-S4 reveals that the other people who had R-M269(xL23) or R-M269* were:

Germany: 3 R-M269*
Switzerland: 2 R-M269*
Slovenia: 1 R-M269*
Poland: 2 R-M269*
Hungary:1 R-M269*
Russians Northern Russia: 3 R-M269*
Ukraine West: 1 R-M269*
Bosnia: 2 R-M269*
Serbia: 5 R-M269*
Herzegovina: 2 R-M269*
Macedonia: 4 R-M269*
Kosovo: 9 R-M269*
Romania: 9 R-M269*
Italy: 3 R-M269*
Greece: 2 R-M269*
Crete: 4 R-M269*
Bashkirs South-east (Bashkortostan, Russia): 8 R-M269*
Bashkirs South (Bashkortostan, Russia): 2 R-M269*
Lezgis (Northeast Caucasus): 1 R-M269*
Tabasarans (Northeast Caucasus): 1 R-M269*
Jordan: Amman & Dead Sea: 1 R-M269*
Turkey: 12 R-M269*

So there was a total of 78 people carrying haplogroup R-M269* or R-M269(xL23), the majority(53) are from Europe, including Western Europe. Now we know the other 16 people with higher diversity for R-M269* did not come from Turkey or Romania, so they had to come from populations that had more than 1 sample, because 1 sample is just 0 diversity. That means they could have come from any of these populations:

Germany: 3 R-M269*
Switzerland: 2 R-M269*
Poland: 2 R-M269*
Russians Northern Russia: 3 R-M269*
Ukraine West: 1 R-M269*
Bosnia: 2 R-M269*
Serbia: 5 R-M269*
Herzegovina: 2 R-M269*
Macedonia: 4 R-M269*
Kosovo: 9 R-M269*
Italy: 3 R-M269*
Greece: 2 R-M269*
Crete: 4 R-M269*
Bashkirs South-east (Bashkortostan, Russia): 8 R-M269*
Bashkirs South (Bashkortostan, Russia): 2 R-M269*

Looks like the 10 Bashkirs would fall short on the 16 samples remaining, meaning even if 10 out of those 16 samples remaining where the Bashkirs, then the other 6 came from Europe, and what we know is that the diversity amongst those 16 values was higher, because it is the only value that the average diversity for the whole sample could be 0.251, while that of Turkey is only 0.228 and that of Rumania is 0.19. In fact simple math shows that the diversity amongst those 16 samples had to be 0.2844 on average. So yet another study based on variance that shows Anatolia to have lower diversity values.

If you are wondering where the numbers came from, they came from Tables-S4 and S2 from Myres et al.2010.

memobekes
Jun 6 2011, 11:08 PM
R1b was born in Southwest Asia
According to Wikipedia et al. :rolleyes:
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Edited by Euskal kubatarrak, Jun 7 2011, 02:19 AM.
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memobekes
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Euskal kubatarrak
 
According to Wikipedia et al. :rolleyes:

Yes and I am convinced by that source. I don't have any problems nor do I question the legitimacy of it.

Also brother Che has already informed us that this haplotype (R1b) derived from West Asia, not Europe. I mean why do you object to that?
It's not as though he's pulling a rabbit out of a hat and making it up. He's true to his words.
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Euskal kubatarrak
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memobekes
Jun 7 2011, 01:15 AM
Euskal kubatarrak
 
According to Wikipedia et al. :rolleyes:

Yes and I am convinced by that source. I don't have any problems nor do I question the legitimacy of it.

Also brother Che has already informed us that this haplotype (R1b) derived from West Asia, not Europe. I mean why do you object to that?
It's not as though he's pulling a rabbit out of a hat and making it up. He's true to his words.
What sources, there isn't any source, wikipedia isn't a source, :rolleyes: :lol: and how about the shitload of evidence I just provided why R-M269( As I'm talking about R-M269 not R1b) did not originated in Anatolia nor did it spread from there with agriculturists, or how about its freaking absence in Neolithic sites from Europe. Yeah, I'm sorry to burst your little bubble but your "brother" is making stuff up. Again bring up your sources, and then we'll talk about it, so far, it doesn't look like it.
Edited by Euskal kubatarrak, Jun 7 2011, 01:22 AM.
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