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What are the basic difference(s) between the Dinaric and Alpine racial types?
Topic Started: Oct 6 2010, 01:28 AM (8,393 Views)
memobekes
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I know that both types are brachycephalic. Are there any other basic differences?
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Altay
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Dinaric

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Alpine

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memobekes
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Thanks for the comparison Altay. But aren't the Alpines/Dinarids known for their planoccipital skulls? The guys in the posters clearly have curvooccipital skulls.
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Brassy2
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Altay
Oct 6 2010, 02:24 AM

Quote:
 
Dinaric

Posted Image


He is obviously mixed and no way textbook Dinarid (look at his occiput, jaw, bodytype and face length). He is Atlanto-Med with slight Dinarid influence.
memobekes
Jan 30 2011, 06:53 PM
Thanks for the comparison Altay. But aren't the Alpines/Dinarids known for their planoccipital skulls? The guys in the posters clearly have curvooccipital skulls.
Alpine have round occiput but they are still brachycephalic, Dinarid do have. The reason why Dinarid are brachycephalic because their occiput is rather flat, forehead is broad, face is medium with big chin and strong jaw, so basically that's their head is round and broad.
Edited by Brassy2, Jan 30 2011, 07:11 PM.
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Altay
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memobekes
 
But aren't the Alpines/Dinarids known for their planoccipital skulls? The guys in the posters clearly have curvooccipital skulls.
Dinarids, yes; Alpines, no. It's a composite image anyway, exaggerated flatness shouldn't be expected.

Brassy2
 
He is obviously mixed and no way textbook Dinarid (look at his occiput, jaw, bodytype and face length). He is Atlanto-Med with slight Dinarid influence.
What can you tell about the body type from that picture? I don't see how that occiput or jaw is decidedly Atlanto-Med. And Dinarics have the longest faces.

Atlanto-Med composite, for comparison:

Posted Image
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Crimson Guard
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Quote:
 
[blockquote]Evolutionary Background-Morphological Types

During the past 100,000 years or more, from Mousterian times onward, at least four major selective processes have determined the continuing change through Neanderthal to modern man(cf. Coon, 1939, p. 28; brace, 1964; both quoting Hrdlicka): (1) paedomorphism, 92) tooth reduction, (3) somatic response to climate, and (4) physiological responses to disease.

1. Paedomorphimis, the maintenance into adulthood of childhood features such as a relatively large and curled-up brain mass and a lightly built skeleton, had already played some part in producing Homo sapiens neanderthalensis because, in my opinion, paedomorphism was one growth-control channel for the selection effects of tool-manufacture and speech versus brain-complexity feedback in earlier Pleistocene evolution(Angel, 1964 B) and because of social selection for adaptability.

2. Reduction in size of teeth and the folding of teeth, especially front teeth, were part of the selective adaptation to well-cooked food and to the increasing use of improving cutting tools, starting before Mousterian times(Brace, 1964) and greatly accelerated by the growing use of vegetable food at the end of the Paleolithic times. Obviously, in this process of mainly negative selection, there was a big time-lag: it is worth considering tht the beginning development of flint-blade knives in the Near East Mediterranean, as at Barda Balka(Braidwood and Howe, 1960) and at Shanida(Solecki, 1963), is linked with increasing proportions of vegetable food in the diet, in constrast with the almost Eskimoid bone-using Mousterian of Europe; and that this beginning vegetable diet helped to trigger the Neanderthal to modern transition in the near East.

3. Somatic response to a desert climate tends to select a linear body structure, often with a less massive and less massively side skull than usual among European neanderthals. Both Shanidar I(Stewart, 1959) and the Skhul skulls (McCown and Keith, 1939), at 40,000-35,000 B.C., show effects of all three of these selective processes not long before the second maximum of the Wurm glaciation, although it is possible that the final transition to modern man took place in the partly desert areas east of the Jordon and that the Skhul population is a mixture, anticipating what probably happened very soon afterwood throughout Europe as Upper Paleolithic cultures developed.

4. Physiological response to disease, and to parasitism by such organisms as bacteria, plasmodia, response, and amoebae(Cockburn, 1963), may have been as critically important during the absorption of Neanderthal man in Europe as it was in the recent of absorption of American Indian populations; it certainly had an increasing effect after 9000 B.C. with the spread of farming villages. I am not arguing that any one disease or, for example, a great epidemic of smallpox, wiped out all Neanderthal populations. Rather I am applying to the Neanderthal-to-modern demographic change the hypothesis that, after invaders have entered with new bacteria, selective increase in population sizes will tend to favor later groups in which better hunting provides more food, more time for individual adaptation to the new bacteria, and more "modern type invaders in the mixture. Isolated small groups of unmixed Neanderthals would be more affected by deaths and would tend to become less fertile. Although we do not have enough specific finds to give a detailed picture of demography in the period around 25,000 to 15,00 B.C., the fairly short longevity of Upper Paleolithic groups shown in Tables III indicates that selective forces were strong.

Disease, climate and other selective process and mixtures give rise to at least a half dozen different skull-form options in the Near East(and Europe) during and after the Upper Paleolithic--all of them lacking the extreme brow-ridges, the huge face and mouth, the smallish mastoids, and the large paramastoid and nuchal prominences of Neanderthal man--as follows:

A. Linear suggest skull forms with reduced and sometimes wide upper face but strong jaws(Basic White, Cro-Magnoid, Eurafrican, ect.), as in latest Paleolithic South Russia(Debets, 1955) or Hotu 2 in North Iran(angel, 1952) or in North Africa from Nubia to Morocco(Anderson, 1968; Farembach, 1962; Briggs, 1955), as well as in Central Europe(Coon, 1939).
B. Extremely gracile paedomorphic, linear, pinch-faced forms(Classic Mediterranean) clear only late at Wadi en Natuf and elsewhere in the steppe-desert edge from Anau in Turkestan westward to Morocco(McCown, 1939; Angel, 1951; Farembach, 1962).
C. Paedomorphic forms with reduced and rounded face but the wide Neanderthal skull base and brain and hence a wide skull(Alpinoid), as at Solutre, Oftnet(Coon, 1939), and elsewhere in Central Europe or in the unknown source, perhaps northern Syria or Pamphylia, of the first Neolithic colonists in South Cyprus(Angel,1953).
D. Forms with reduced massiveness, linear and deep, keeping Neanderthal anterior face downgrowth and nose strength to resit oblique forward chewing stresses(Nordic-Iranian, Irano-Afghan, Corded, ect), as in Hotu 1, later at Sialk(Vallois, 1939) and Hissar(Krogman, 1940) in northern Iran, in the adjacent steppe country to the north(Ginsburg, 1956), and as with Corded culture in Europe(Coon, 1939).
E. Direct paedomorphic transformations--large, high-vaulted, mesocrane with big fore-head and reduced face(Mixed-Alpine), as in Hotu 3, at Jericho, or at Ofnet and Teviec in central and western Europe.
F. Forms with long-nosed big face, vaguely Neanderthaloid like forms D or even like B, and comparatively short and high vault(Dinaroid, Dinaric-Mediterranean), as in Central European Mesolithic at Hohlenstein and Kaufertsberg and considerably later in the Near East (Angel, 1951).

These six types or trends(and a number of subtrends with each) do not exhaust the possible combinations of interaction between paedomorphism in braincase or face, jaw reduction, increased linearity of braincase or face in evolution from an already variable Neanderthal base. In the strict sense these six reference points are abstractions; no single modern population has ever been homogeneous enough to conform to any one such trend. But they are useful as reference points and I shall so use them in the descriptions of individual skulls and skeletons which follow. A tabular expose of the six types with the subtrends of each is presented in table 1.

I adopted these reference directions in skull form for shorthand descriptions after seeing hundreds of skulls from the Eastern Mediterranean, and while they accommodate the trends of variation I observed in them, they do not always precisely conform to what earlier workers may have had in mind.

The Basic White type A1, for example, is close to the British Megalithic form and to the Atlanto-Mediterranean of Deniker and others, and it is longer-faced, more linear throughout than A3. Type A2 is a smaller version of the Upper Paleolithic norm and is broader-based and more rugged than the A3, the central Basic White, which approximates the Eurafrican of the literature and is a smaller version of Cro-Magnon. A4, a squat-faced and low-headed version of A3, being more Eastern than African; and A5 is a fuller, more massive version.

The Classic Mediterranean type B1 is a generalized Mediterranean, whereas B2 is the more angular form, as often found in Egypt. Types B3, more linear and "Classic" in Sergi's sense, and B4, with the long face, approximate the desert-belt Mediterranean versions in the from North Africa and Siwah to Hissar and Kazakhstan.

The Nordic-Iranian type D1 lies between the Anglo-Saxon and Keltic area norms, and D2 is the earlier pre-Bronze Age Corded form which Coon identifies. Type D3, lighter and more hawk-nosed, is transitional to the Mediterranean type B4 and to type D4(Iranian), which is the Proto-Iranian of Vallois, Irano Afghan of others, and the Proto-Nordic of Krogman, and which is more linear and more rugged than D3 and has a more tilted chewing plane, more nasal convexity, and deeper occiput. Type D5 approximates Coon's Danubian-Hallsatt and successor Central European forms.

The Dinaric-Mediterranean type F1 is the lighter more Mediterranean version found in Lower Egypt or Anatolia; F2 is the broader bigger-faced more Dinaroid version, rarely with less curved occiput; and F3 is the low-headed East Balkan version with some Iranian face features. Type F4, with its more Iranian face and short vault and with little occipital bulge diverges toward the Armenoid of Bunak and others. Note that type F never has the "flat" occiput of Dinaric and Armenoid types; this occiput is probably artificial(head-binding) in any case.

The Mixed Alpine type E1 has the A3 form puffed out and more paedomorphic(cf. Alpine) whereas E2 is Nordic-Alpine and E3 Mediterranean-Alpine.

The Alpine type C1 is the typical Central European Alpine form, C2 a smaller trend of this, and C3 is the Upper Paleolithic to Mesolithic form(cf. Borreby). Type C4, short-faced but narrow-nosed and with an almost flat occiput, is an Eastern but not Armenoid form; and C5 is a low-headed and squat-faced version of C4, perhaps frequent in Hittites. These two may be pre-Armenoid.[/blockquote]
-Lawrence Angel, " The People of Lerna"
Edited by Crimson Guard, Jan 30 2011, 08:58 PM.
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Brassy2
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Altay
Jan 30 2011, 08:42 PM
memobekes
 
But aren't the Alpines/Dinarids known for their planoccipital skulls? The guys in the posters clearly have curvooccipital skulls.
Dinarids, yes; Alpines, no. It's a composite image anyway, exaggerated flatness shouldn't be expected.

Brassy2
 
He is obviously mixed and no way textbook Dinarid (look at his occiput, jaw, bodytype and face length). He is Atlanto-Med with slight Dinarid influence.
What can you tell about the body type from that picture? I don't see how that occiput or jaw is decidedly Atlanto-Med. And Dinarics have the longest faces.

Atlanto-Med composite, for comparison:

Posted Image
Dinarid have long face, yeah but they are not as long as Nordid or Atlanto/Pontid. His thick neck looks like his body is quite leptosome than mature. His occiput is too round to be Dinarid (Dinarid are supposed to have flat occiput) and his jaw is very narrow and more gently (Dinarid has sort of strong jaw).
Let me show you what Dinarid looks like :
(Textbook Dinarid German)
Posted Image
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

Look at his face, jaw, chin, they seem more sharp than that Atlanto/Pontid. Is that what you call this Dinarid face longer ? They are medium face, has wide sloping forehead, big square chin and cheek is rather wide, so it give the impression of ''being long but broad face at the same time''.
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Crimson Guard
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Dinarics vary:

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-35.htm

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-37.htm

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-38.htm

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-39.htm

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-40.htm

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-41.htm
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zeta
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Dinarics are tall.
Flat faces (short heads from the side view)
Orthognathic
Lambdoidal flattening (back part of head looks like it was cut away) as opposed to Occipital flattening
High Headed
Foreheads are slightly turned backwards like in the nordic race.
Foreheads are wide and high.
Chin is high and rounded. This does not mean they have a big chin.

Dinaricism is an ancient European trait found from southern France, to Germany to Yugoslavia, northern Albania, some parts of Greece, to Ukraine, southern Poland.

What is Alpine?
Alpine's also have rounded chins and small heads.
Fleshy facial areas,
Fatty facial areas
Not a pronounced area between nose and upper lip.

Can someone add to this or dispute any of this?

I have another question: What is Alpine-Dinaric?

Edited by zeta, Jan 30 2011, 09:32 PM.
This is Dinarid. If they don't look like this, then they ain't Dinarid.
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You guys still here?
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Altay
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Brassy2
Jan 30 2011, 09:06 PM
Dinarid have long face, yeah but they are not as long as Nordid or Atlanto/Pontid.
Coon:

"The second phenomenon revealed by our study is the fact that when Mediterranean racial types are blended in a two to one proportion with Alpines, something totally different from either results, and this product is not in all characters intermediate. The facial breadths are Mediterranean, the nose and face are often elongated, the cranial length reduced to an Alpine dimension, and the breadth similarly increased; at the same time the foramen magnum and the auricular passages retain a metrical position in reference to the anterior landmarks of the cranial and facial skeleton found in the Mediterranean ancestor ... The process described above is one of Dinaricization"

Your example seems mixed with Alpino-Cromagnid.

Extreme Dinaric:

Posted Image

Moderate Dinaric:

Posted Image
Edited by Altay, Jan 30 2011, 09:36 PM.
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Brassy2
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zeta
Jan 30 2011, 09:21 PM
Dinarics are tall.
Flat faces (short heads from the side view)
Orthognathic
Lambdoidal flattening (back part of head looks like it was cut away) as opposed to Occipital flattening
High Headed
Foreheads are slightly turned backwards like in the nordic race.
Foreheads are wide and high.
Chin is high and rounded. This does not mean they have a big chin.

Dinaricism is an ancient European trait found from southern France, to Germany to Yugoslavia, northern Albania, some parts of Greece, to Ukraine, southern Poland.

What is Alpine?
Alpine's also have rounded chins and small heads.
Fleshy facial areas,
Fatty facial areas
Not a pronounced area between nose and upper lip.

Can someone add to this or dispute any of this?

I have another question: What is Alpine-Dinaric?

Dinarid chin is more square and longer which i said big chin. Dinarid are partly descent of CM people.
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nottellingyou
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He's flawless, but the nose is abit too Armenoid.
He's flawless, but the nose is abit too Armenoid. :lol:
Edited by nottellingyou, Jan 30 2011, 09:52 PM.
"WHAT EACH KISS MEANS"
- Kiss on the Forehead: We're cute together .
- Kiss on the Cheek: We're friends.
- Kiss on the Hand: I adore you.
- Kiss on the Neck: I want you, now.
- Kiss on the Shoulder: You're perfect.
- Kiss on the Lips: I LOVE YOU...
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Brassy2
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Altay
Jan 30 2011, 09:34 PM
Brassy2
Jan 30 2011, 09:06 PM
Dinarid have long face, yeah but they are not as long as Nordid or Atlanto/Pontid.
Coon:

"The second phenomenon revealed by our study is the fact that when Mediterranean racial types are blended in a two to one proportion with Alpines, something totally different from either results, and this product is not in all characters intermediate. The facial breadths are Mediterranean, the nose and face are often elongated, the cranial length reduced to an Alpine dimension, and the breadth similarly increased; at the same time the foramen magnum and the auricular passages retain a metrical position in reference to the anterior landmarks of the cranial and facial skeleton found in the Mediterranean ancestor ... The process described above is one of Dinaricization"

Your example seems mixed with Alpino-Cromagnid.

Extreme Dinaric:

Posted Image

Moderate Dinaric:

Posted Image
This dude is Pontid mixed with Dinaric influence, so not exactly Dinaric. Yeah, they are often long face but they aren't as long as Nordid. Dinarids tend to have more robust, or "sculpted" features :
(Posted Image
Posted Image

(Albanian Dinarid. look at chin and jaw)
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Posted ImageSerbian Dinarid :
Posted Image

Posted Image

Textbook Nordid :
Posted Image

Edited by Brassy2, Jan 30 2011, 09:56 PM.
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memobekes
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The first time I was classified here on Anthroscape, a lot of contributors classified me as a "Dinaricised Mediterranean". As I'm not too familiar with this type could anyone make some comments on this subject? Is it a blend of two distinct types or is it a race on its own?

The article attached by CG is interesting as it breaks down the "Dinaricised Mediterranean" subtype into four branches: looking at my avatar, which one would you say I belong to? F1, F2, F3 or F4?


Quote:
 
The Dinaric-Mediterranean type F1 is the lighter more Mediterranean version found in Lower Egypt or Anatolia; F2 is the broader bigger-faced more Dinaroid version, rarely with less curved occiput; and F3 is the low-headed East Balkan version with some Iranian face features. Type F4, with its more Iranian face and short vault and with little occipital bulge diverges toward the Armenoid of Bunak and others. Note that type F never has the "flat" occiput of Dinaric and Armenoid types; this occiput is probably artificial(head-binding) in any case.
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Mjora
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memobekes
Jan 30 2011, 10:04 PM
The first time I was classified here on Anthroscape, a lot of contributors classified me as a "Dinaricised Mediterranean". As I'm not too familiar with this type could anyone make some comments on this subject? Is it a blend of two distinct types or is it a race on its own?

İn the latest pictures you look more Alpine than anything else to me.
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memobekes
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@mjora are you basing your opinion on the image you see in the avatar? Very rarely have I been classified as an alpine type, most think dinarid or armenoid.
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nottellingyou
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Alpine Med can come under the armenoid race.
"WHAT EACH KISS MEANS"
- Kiss on the Forehead: We're cute together .
- Kiss on the Cheek: We're friends.
- Kiss on the Hand: I adore you.
- Kiss on the Neck: I want you, now.
- Kiss on the Shoulder: You're perfect.
- Kiss on the Lips: I LOVE YOU...
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Mjora
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memobekes
Feb 3 2011, 12:21 AM
@mjora are you basing your opinion on the image you see in the avatar? Very rarely have I been classified as an alpine type, most think dinarid or armenoid.
Yes I was saying that based on the latest pictures I saw in your avatar.There was one another before the recent picture , you were very Alpine looking in that picture.
Edited by Mjora, Feb 3 2011, 03:08 AM.
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Brassy2
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nottellingyou
Feb 3 2011, 12:45 AM
Alpine Med can come under the armenoid race.
No, it's not. Armenoid is the process of this own.

Armenoid :
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Alpinid Med :
Posted Image

:lol: :lol: :lol: :rolleyes:
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