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The Negroid Ancestry of the Portuguese
Topic Started: May 15 2010, 02:15 AM (29,390 Views)
Arch Hades
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May 18 2010, 07:10 AM
It's pretty obvious your a nordist probably english not sure why you hate the Portuguese so much. Anyway there is negroid admixture everywhere in Europe in very low numbers. Let's cut through all your bullshit because that's what it is, your saying that Portuguese are black and not pure and neither is any other Mediterranean country in Europe. Why not at least be a man and say what you want to say up front instead of masking your obvious dislike for in particular the Portuguese people? Unfortunately no country in Europe is 100% pure (mongoloid or negroid admixture) not the UK, Finland, Germany etc. so because Portuguese have little bit higher % than the rest of Europe there black? To be honest i have never met a Portuguese person that i have liked but to attack them like this is wrong.
The Portuguese do in fact have more so called "Negroid admixture" than the rest of Southern Europe, there's no doubt about that. However it's not high, they are not Mulattoes or anything.

Don't worry, you are Italian and there is not but a drop of "negroid admixture" in Italy..at least if we go by the the frequencies of recent influxes of sub-saharan mtDNA or Y-Chromosomes. Even historical North African and Near Eastern admixture is very low in Italy.
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May 18 2010, 03:26 AM
Even the great CS Coon describes the southern European thus:

Mediterranean Proper (hereafter meant when the word "Mediterranean" is used alone): Short stature, about 160 cm.; skull length 183-187 mm. male mean; vault height 132-137 mm. mean; cranial index means 73-75; browridges and bone development weak, face short, nose leptorrhine to mesorrhine. Type already met in Portugal and Palestine in Late Mesolithic. Represents the paedomorphic or sexually undifferentiated Mediterranean form, and often carries a slight negroid tendency.



That was not for the "Southern European". Also why did you glance over Brace if you were attempting to connect "slight Negroid tendency" to: 1) Mediterranean Proper 2)Mesolithic Portugal and 3) to Southern Europeans as a whole? Furthermore Coon's quote on the Mediterranean Proper did not have to do with Portuguese. But rather certain groups and geographic peripheral boundaries which some people belong to the Mediterranean type, a type or Race which stretches from India to parts in the British and Scandinavia according to him and others. He did not specify where or who in that quote. The "slight Negroid tendency" referred to him there was mainly to do with North Africans and certain Eastern peoples all whom belonged to the same Mediterranean proper(small Med., Classic Med. Ibero-Insular ect) type but bordered and came into contact with Negroids. And probably also to do alveolar prognathism which by itself not a Negroid trait and it was noted by him in Northern Europeans as well. This is all apparent once you read the books. Even John Beddoe on the British Isles used terms like "Negrescence" and "Africoid" for the Celtic peoples of Britain ect.

Prognathism is lacking in Portugal and southern Europe:

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however, it is possible that one can be phenotypically Caucasoid, yet possess less than one-third sub-Saharan negroid ancestry at the same time.


Yoruba themselves must be phenotypically Negroid, yet possess Caucasoid ancestry at the same time then to, right?!

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All mtDNA and Y-DNA lineages are of proto-Caucasoid origin


Surprised Four didnt have anything to say when you wrote that. But OK, enough said there . But after acknowledging that fact, how does that in your line of thinking come to mean that Negroid slaves(whom are themselves carrying Caucasoid or proto-Caucasoid DNA) somehow introduced "Negroid looks" or now "Negroid DNA" into the Portuguese(keep in mind they're carrying Proto-Caucasoid-DNA). So now even though( it is not Negroid DNA) they do though look show mixed looking people and carry Negroid markers due to slaves and Islamic conquest. A rather pretentious line of thinking.

RR, beat me to it. As often early anthropologists(I made a point of stuff like this in some other threads as well before) that often times terms(as used by Roland Dixon and others than followed him) like Neanderthaloid, Mongoloid, Proto-Mongoloid, Eskimoid, Proto-Australoid, Proto-Negroid, Negroid didnt have much if all anything to do with actual Neanderthals, Australoids, Mongoloids or Negroids, just that there were some robust traits or forms being carried over from a more archaic or mature living or dead ancestor(Cromagnoid) of the living Caucasoid. And Proto-Caucasoid types(which Coon thought and others) probably went on to form actual other races like Mongoloid, Capoid and Congoid.

PS

The part you should of quoted from Coon was this:

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The "Mediterranean" racial family is just as "white," in the larger meaning of the word, as the Upper Palaeolithic family. Its chief differences from the latter are: a smaller brain size, a moderate body size, and a lack of the excessive specializations which characterize the northern group. The Mediterranean group seems to be of purely sapiens ancestry, without Neanderthaloid or other mixture.




Edited by Crimson Guard, May 18 2010, 09:19 PM.
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May 18 2010, 02:22 PM
No, they didn't. This is what they concluded:

[blockquote]Future studies will hopefully be able to better resolve this question by comparing haplotypes from further populations around the Mediterranean.[/blockquote]
That is what they concluded because of concerns that the YRI HapMap may not be representative of North African genetic diversity as a whole, especially as they had initially postulated that southwestern European genetic diversity was the result of North African migration. However, they also concluded on the basis of the data generated by their haplotype sharing analysis that, in spite of the absence of North African genetic data, the greater genetic diversity of southwestern Europe is the end result of negroid gene flow from West Africa:

Nonetheless, the haplotype sharing between Europe and the YRI are suggestive of gene flow from Africa, albeit from West Africa and not necessarily North Africa.

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Fine, but at the start of this thread, you were using only uniparental markers and dismissing autosomes. When in fact, if you had to choose one or the other, autosomes are better for quantifying admixture.


I agree. You have convinced me that autosomal DNA is far superior to Y-DNA or mtDNA when it comes to genealogical analysis; however, it would be a mistake to rely solely on biparental markers alone because of the greater utility of uniparental markers in determining sources of admixture, establishing directional mating patterns, and reconstructing population histories.

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As we saw in the Auton study, haplotype sharing is not necessarily a product of racial admixture. Indeed, the word "admixture" doesn't appear a single time in the Athanasiadis study.

Yes, but haplotype sharing analysis does quantify gene flow and introgressive hybridiziation between populations, in this case between sub-Saharan negroid Africa and southern Europe. Extensive haplotype sharing is often indicative of admixture.

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Here are percentages of Sub-Saharan African admixture from a similar study that actually addresses the question:

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http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2010/01/extent-of-black-admixture-in.html

I certainly agree that in southern Europe (with the exception of Portugal), the level of negroid admixture is almost barely detectable, at least when compared to Latin America and North Africa. When compared to northern Europe, which is almost free of negroid blood, it is much higher. Nevertheless, in Portugal, the stain of negroid blood reaches its highest frequencies and relative to the rest of Europe, it possesses an appreciable quantity of such negro ancestry.

Autosomal and mitochondrial DNA analysis reveals that Negroid admixture reaches its highest level in Portuguese Madeira. In a 2002 report, Spinola et. al. write:

HLA-A, -B, and -DR frequencies were analysed in populations from Portugal and the Madeira and Cabo Verde Archipelagos, aiming to characterize their genetic composition. Portuguese settlers colonized both Archipelagos in the 15th and 16th centuries. Madeira received many sub-Saharan slaves to work in the sugar plantations. [...] The population of Madeira shows the highest genetic diversity and the presence of alleles and haplotypes usually linked to sub-Saharan populations, the haplotypes accounting for 3.5% of the total.

[...]

MtDNA data also shows the extension of typical African haplogroups (L and M1) in Madeira, 20.4% of the total compared to only 6.5% in the Azores (Brehm, unpublished data). The same applies for STR microsatellite distribution (Fernandes et al. 2001).

Distribution of HLA alleles in Portugal and Cabo Verde. Relationships with the slave trade route

In a 2005 study, the same researchers further observe:

Comparing our HLA data with other populations (Human Immunology, 2004; Spinola et al., 2005a; Spinola et al., in press-b, 2005) reveals that Madeira’s population have an intermediate position between European and African populations which should be expected under an hypothesis of a mixed origin of its settlers. This analysis shows also that Madeira experienced a stronger sub-Saharan influence, due to slave trade, than mainland Portugal and even the Azores Islands. These results are corroborated by the finding in Madeira’s population of several sub-Saharan African specific alleles, albeit in low frequencies (e.g. B*1503, B*1516, B*5703, B*5802, A*0102, A*0202, A*3402, A*3601, and A*7403).

HLA genes in Madeira Island (Portugal) inferred from sequence-based typing: Footprints from different origins

Relative to other regions of Europe, Portugal and especially the autonomous region of Madeira possess significantly more negroid DNA than anywhere else. Where else in Europe can one speak of an appreciable sub-Saharan footprint except in Portugal?

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Represents the paedomorphic or sexually undifferentiated Mediterranean form, and often carries a slight negroid tendency..

Terms like "negroid" and "mongoloid" used by early anthropologists don't necessarily refer to race or racial admixture, e.g.:

[blockquote]Thus that Proto-Negroid type designates a form of skull which is Dolicocephalic, Hypsicephalic, and Platyrrhine, and carries with it no necessary implication whatever that any features which we may be accustomed to think of as occurring in Negro crania are also present; and the statement that among a given people the Proto-Negroid type is strongly represented does not imply that they have or had black skin or woolly hair.

http://openlibrary.org/b/OL6653179M [/blockquote]

OK, I was obviously mistaken. What you say is correct.

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White Nationalists and Afrocentrists = two peas in a pod

I'm insulted. I don't believe that every civilization was founded by blue-eyed Nordic Aryans and I certainly don't agree with Kemp on a large number of things, or even most things for that matter. I'm not a rigid dogmatist and will readily change my mind when confronted with newer and more accurate data. I consider this more of a learning exercise more than anything else.
Crimson Guard
May 18 2010, 09:18 PM
That was not for the "Southern European". Also why did you glance over Brace if you were attempting to connect "slight Negroid tendency" to: 1) Mediterranean Proper 2)Mesolithic Portugal and 3) to Southern Europeans as a whole? Furthermore Coon's quote on the Mediterranean Proper did not have to do with Portuguese. But rather certain groups and geographic peripheral boundaries which some people belong to the Mediterranean type, a type or Race which stretches from India to parts in the British and Scandinavia according to him and others. He did not specify where or who in that quote. The "slight Negroid tendency" referred to him there was mainly to do with North Africans and certain Eastern peoples all whom belonged to the same Mediterranean proper(small Med., Classic Med. Ibero-Insular ect) type but bordered and came into contact with Negroids. And probably also to do alveolar prognathism which by itself not a Negroid trait and it was noted by him in Northern Europeans as well. This is all apparent once you read the books. Even John Beddoe on the British Isles used terms like "Negrescence" and "Africoid" for the Celtic peoples of Britain ect.

Prognathism is lacking in Portugal and southern Europe:


OK. I admit I was wrong.

Quote:
 
Yoruba themselves must be phenotypically Negroid, yet possess Caucasoid ancestry at the same time then to, right?!

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that they are substantially negroid, both penotypically and genotypically; it is certainly possible that they may possess a small number of Caucasoid traits.

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Surprised Four didnt have anything to say when you wrote that. But OK, enough said there . But after acknowledging that fact, how does that in your line of thinking come to mean that Negroid slaves(whom are themselves carrying Caucasoid or proto-Caucasoid DNA) somehow introduced "Negroid looks" or now "Negroid DNA" into the Portuguese(keep in mind they're carrying Proto-Caucasoid-DNA). So now even though( it is not Negroid DNA) they do though look show mixed looking people and carry Negroid markers due to slaves and Islamic conquest. A rather pretentious line of thinking.


As I explained before, all of the mtDNA and Y-DNA lineages in existence are of proto-Caucasoid origin. It is because the L lineages have become geographically restricted to and associated with negroid populations through time that they can be spoken of as "negroid" DNA. Also, most L lineages found in the Portuguese gene pool are of recent origin, a sure indication of the introgression of negroid genes.

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RR, beat me to it. As often early anthropologists(I made a point of stuff like this in some other threads as well before) that often times terms(as used by Roland Dixon and others than followed him) like Neanderthaloid, Mongoloid, Proto-Mongoloid, Eskimoid, Proto-Australoid, Proto-Negroid, Negroid didnt have much if all anything to do with actual Neanderthals, Australoids, Mongoloids or Negroids, just that there were some robust traits or forms being carried over from a more archaic or mature living or dead ancestor(Cromagnoid) of the living Caucasoid. And Proto-Caucasoid types(which Coon thought and others) probably went on to form actual other races like Mongoloid, Capoid and Congoid.

PS

The part you should of quoted from Coon was this:

Quote:
 
The "Mediterranean" racial family is just as "white," in the larger meaning of the word, as the Upper Palaeolithic family. Its chief differences from the latter are: a smaller brain size, a moderate body size, and a lack of the excessive specializations which characterize the northern group. The Mediterranean group seems to be of purely sapiens ancestry, without Neanderthaloid or other mixture.


OK. That was my bad.
Edited by Racial Awareness, May 19 2010, 02:46 AM.
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"White Nationalists" are generally somewhat Nordicists if you ask me....and nearly all are NorthWestern European descent.

Italy/Greece/Spain, etc The Mediterranean nations in Europe are not suffering from huge immigration problems like Western and Northern Europe so most Southern Europeans are not interested in it....plus our ethnic consciousness pre dates the concept of "whiteness" and has nothing to do with "whiteness". Only a few Southern Europeans are desperate to be considered "brothers" to the folks North of the Alps.....those people are mostly clowns and usually living in Northern European nations, or nations that are predominately Northern European....thus they identify with Northern Europeans before Australian Aboriginals, Mexicans, or Blacks (makes sense).

Some people accuse RR and Dienekes of doing this, of being obsessed with being "pure"...however that's a lie. It seems to me they just like to refute pseudo history and propaganda about Southern Europeans.



Quote:
 
I'm insulted. I don't believe that every civilization was founded by blue-eyed Nordic Aryans and I certainly don't agree with Kemp on a large number of things, or even most things for that matter. I'm not a rigid dogmatist and will readily change my mind when confronted with newer and more accurate data. I consider this more of a learning exercise more than anything else


I've noticed there are basically 2 groups of people on the planet that like to claim ancient culture and civilizations that don't belong to them. Sub Saharan Africans and Northern Europeans. I don't know why that is the case (one I think has to do with an inferiority complex, the other probably a superiority one)..No one else, not Southern Europeans, not North AFricans, Not "MiddleEasterners" not American Indians, not Chinese or Japanese. None of these other groups of people have i ever seen claiming outside civilizations.
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four
May 18 2010, 02:01 PM
:popcorn:

Racial Awareness, I like your facts and HARD DATA.
Racial Awareness they cannot disprove the hard data, watch how they slither away further insinuating that things of Sub Saharan origin are not so 'Negroid' at all.........White wash the Yoruba, White wash Sub Saharan Mtdna L3 :rotflmao: . Instead of finding new information to combat yours they will just attempt to "De-Negro" the Negro admixture in Portuguese. Portuguese have Negro Admixture - Get over it, its not that high anyway.
What are you babbling about? The Yoruba have Caucasian ancestry and the L lineages are of non-negroid origin.
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When the study was conducted is quite immaterial. A study can be fifty years old, but if there is no body of empirical data which refutes its main contentions, then it is just as valid today as it was yesterday. So far, you have presented nothing which contradicts the assertions of either Salas et. al. or Pereira et. al.

Of course when a study is published matters since the claims it makes and the conclusions it reaches are inescapably dependent on whatever data and methodologies were available at that the time of that study's completion. New data is always coming in and existing methodologies are perfected or new ones are invented that challenge or outright invalidate previous conclusions reached using older methods and limited data -- work such as the recent autosomal studies & STRUCTURE analyses I and other users have already posted. The latter make a complete mockery of your claims of a strong Negroid component in Portugal and elsewhere in southern Europe. You're posting quotes from studies using uniparental markers which conclude that certain regions in Portugal such as Madeira that historically had around 10% of Black African slaves today likewise show roughly 10% or so of the local population in those areas as carrying Sub-Saharan markers. Hmmm... I wonder why that is? Could it be because those 10% are directly descended from the 10% or so of Black African slaves that historically resided in Madeira? Big surprise there.

Racial Awareness
 
Do you have any peer-reviewed research literature, one that adheres to a conventional pattern of scientific methodological investigation and is published in respectable journals, to prove this claim? The last time I checked, books are not considered peer-reviewed research literature.

Well, you obviously didn't check close enough cause that quote is indeed from a peer-reviewed research study, one that adheres to a conventional pattern of scientific methodological investigation; it's just part of a larger book on popular genetics, similar to Cavalli-Sforza's HGHG classic. The study is titled The Arabian peninsula: Gate for Human Migrations Out of Africa or Cul-de-Sac? A Mitochondrial DNA Phylogeographic Perspective and its authors are noted scholars in the field such as Vincente M. Cabrera, Khaled K. Abu-Amero and Ana M. Gonzalez (the latter of whom, let's not forget, you yourself cited as a source not too long ago).

Racial Awareness
 
According to an actual research paper, which investigates an hypothesis and substantiates it by means of scientific experimentation, L3 lineages are most frequent in western, eastern and southeastern Africa. Atkinson et. al. (2008) write:

The youngest of the major haplogroups, L3, is most common in western and eastern/southeastern sub-Saharan Africa, particularly among speakers of the Bantu language family, and is thought to have originated in eastern Africa, where it accounts for half of all types (Salas et al. 2002). Two other haplogroups descended from L3 (M and N) are the only mtDNA lineages observed outside Africa.

Bayesian coalescent inference of major human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup expansions in Africa

That statement on L3's distribution in Africa is, again, sourced to that old Salas et al. (2002) study. Many other African populations (particularly ones from North Africa) have been profiled since then, and the clade's intra-continental distribution is much better understood now. Here again is what L3's actual modern distribution in Africa looks like, from a study published just last year:
[blockquote]"in that large region it is possible to distinguish at least a northern area conformed by Egypt, Nubia, Sudan, Ethiopia and Somalia in which, at mtDNA level, the L3 haplogroups have significantly greater frequencies than in the southern area represented by Kenya, Tanzania and Mozambique, where, in compensation, the most ancestral L0 has comparatively higher frequencies."[/blockquote]Cabrera et al. (2009)

Racial Awareness
 
Proof? A substantial fraction of negroid mtDNA is comprised of L3 lineages. Here, you can even see for yourself:

Posted Image

That map is from that same old Salas et al. (2002) study your quote is based on. It is also not at all reflective of the actual proportions represented by different mtDNA clades in Africa since, as the authors themselves readily admit, the map is "combining some sub-clades for convenience, and excluding the contribution of haplogroups of non-African origin".

Racial Awareness
 
This is all true, however what you forget is that the Portuguese acquired the vast majority of their L3 lineages by means of interbreeding with their negro slaves from west and southeastern Africa.

Again, that is not necessarily true. The modern distribution of L3 within Africa is still largely concentrated in the Northeast where it originated (see my comments and quotes above). This is not to say that Black African slaves played no part at all in the contemporary distribution of L3 clades in Portugal. I'm sure they did, albeit a minor role given the comparatively small proportion of Black Africans that carry the clade today. By the same token, it is almost certain that just about all the L0-L2 clades present in Portugal are the legacy of Black African immigration since those are the most common mtDNA clades among Sub-Saharan Africans. However, here too the presence of these clades does not automatically denote Sub-Saharan admixture since a minority of Berbers also carry them due to historic admixture. That said, the samples you refer to in the studies above on modern Portugal are in all probability not ethnic Portuguese. They are by and large the descendants of the same slaves that were imported to Portugal from Black Africa. This is why, for example, the percentage of Black African slaves that historically resided in Madeira in Portugal (around 10%) so closely resembles the proportion of people living in Madeira today that carry Sub-Saharan markers (also around 10%). The latter are simply the descendants of the former.

Racial Awareness
 
What does any of this have to do with the fact that L3 originated in sub-Saharan east Africa?

Simple. It states that L3 originated in Northeast Africa (where the clade's modern distribution and diversification is largest) as did the founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 from which all Y chromosomes outside of Africa are likewise descended; this is why downstream clades such as DE which originated in Asia are said by the authors to have "returned" to Northeast Africa:
[blockquote]"The presence of two underived E-M96 Saudi lineages raises interesting questions related to the macrohaplogroup DE-YAP phylogeography. The recent resolutions of the CDEF-M168 tripartite structure to the bipartite DE-YAP and CF-P143 [16,31] extends the conversation regarding the early successful colonization of Eurasia. While several scenarios remain potentially possible the most parsimonious model is the most prudent. This model proposes the successful colonization of Eurasia by migration(s) of populations containing precursor Y-chromosome founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 and basal mtDNA L3 representatives. Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E."[/blockquote]Abu-Amero et al. (2009)

Racial Awareness
 
I have already demonstrated that the greater genetic diversity of southwestern Europe relative to other regions of the continent is the result of negroid gene flow from West Africa, which is actually distributed along a North-South gradient. It has also been proven that in terms of racial admixture, south/southwestern Europeans (most notably the Portuguese) have the highest percentage of negroid mitochondrial and autosomal DNA in all Europe. These are well-established scientific facts which cannot be disputed.

You have not even come close to proving such a thing, and no amount of repeating that you have will change that.

Racial Awareness
 
My point was that features compatible with many different intermediate phenotypes could sometimes mask the slight external modifications produced by an ancestral racial admixture.

Still irrelevant since there's no indication that Portuguese people in the main have these "intermediate phenotypes" you speak of.
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May 19 2010, 02:18 AM
However, they also concluded on the basis of the data generated by their haplotype sharing analysis that, in spite of the absence of North African genetic data, the greater genetic diversity of southwestern Europe is the end result of negroid gene flow from West Africa:

Nonetheless, the haplotype sharing between Europe and the YRI are suggestive of gene flow from Africa, albeit from West Africa and not necessarily North Africa.

"Suggestive of" preceded by other possible explanations and caveats, and followed by an admission that the question remains unresolved, is hardly a conclusion.

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Yes, but haplotype sharing analysis does quantify gene flow and introgressive hybridiziation between populations, in this case between sub-Saharan negroid Africa and southern Europe. Extensive haplotype sharing is often indicative of admixture.

The Athanasiadis study doesn't say anything about "admixture" or "Negroids".

Quote:
 
I'm insulted. I don't believe that every civilization was founded by blue-eyed Nordic Aryans and I certainly don't agree with Kemp on a large number of things, or even most things for that matter.

I didn't say you were a Nordicist or a Kempian. My point was that WNs' obsession with finding/exaggerating black admixture in Southern Europe is shared by Afrocentrists.
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1) Talking about Indonesian admixture in the colonial Dutch or mentioning David Irving apparently really ticked somebody off.

2) As Infamous mentioned before the ethnic self-identification of Portuguese and other European or for that matter world ethnicities has nothing in common with the "whiteness" concept of Anglo-Saxondom and especially the USA.

3) The people who find this topic particularly relevant -even to the point of obsession- are of the "Pioneer Fund"/"American Renaissance" set who have a foot in disreputable extremism and another foot in infiltration of respectable conservative politics. Rather than worshipping Hitler they are big on eugenics, social darwinism, have a certain degree of philosemitism in line with historical Dutch, British and American establishment, and emphasize that immigration of southern Europeans beginning in the 19th century was a very bad thing for the USA. In this context the Portuguese are considered a particularly vile and inferior band.

4) People of southern European origin who are interested in this topic tend to be decendants of southern Europeans living in predominantly nordic countries, particularly in the US and Canada, rather than southern Europeans who reside in their native countries. This may be due to an need to "fit in the mold" in these countries, which is essentially a north-west European mold.
Edited by PortuguesePoster, May 19 2010, 10:22 PM.
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May 19 2010, 10:05 PM
1) Talking about Indonesian admixture in the colonial Dutch or mentioning David Irving apparently really ticked somebody off.

2) As Infamous mentioned before the ethnic self-identification of Portuguese and other European or for that matter world ethnicities has nothing in common with the "whiteness" concept of Anglo-Saxondom and especially the USA.

3) The people who find this topic particularly relevant -even to the point of obsession- are of the "Pioneer Fund"/"American Renaissance" set who have a foot in disreputable extremism and another foot in infiltration of respectable conservative politics. Rather than worshipping Hitler they are big on eugenics, social darwinism, have a certain degree of philosemitism in line with historical Dutch, British and American establishment, and emphasize that immigration of southern Europeans beginning in the 19th century was a very bad thing for the USA. In this context the Portuguese are considered a particularly vile and inferior band.

4) People of southern European origin who are interested in this topic tend to be decendants of southern Europeans living in predominantly nordic countries, particularly in the US and Canada, rather than southern Europeans who reside in their native countries. This may be due to an need to "fit in the mold" in these countries, which is essentially a north-west European mold.
;)
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PortuguesePoster
May 19 2010, 10:05 PM
4) People of southern European origin who are interested in this topic tend to be decendants of southern Europeans living in predominantly nordic countries, particularly in the US and Canada, rather than southern Europeans who reside in their native countries. This may be due to an need to "fit in the mold" in these countries, which is essentially a north-west European mold.
No one is trying to "fit the mold". America is not even socio-polically dominated by NorthWestern Europeans anymore.

There is a difference between white nationalism and rejecting horseshit history saying Greek and Roman civilization fell because of a mass influx of "black slaves".

No self respecting S. European should give a shit about who considers him "white". HOwever he should care when there is false propaganda spread about his people.
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Sir Infamous
May 20 2010, 12:34 AM
No one is trying to "fit the mold". America is not even socio-polically dominated by NorthWestern Europeans anymore.

There is a difference between white nationalism and rejecting horseshit history saying Greek and Roman civilization fell because of a mass influx of "black slaves".

No self respecting S. European should give a shit about who considers him "white". HOwever he should care when there is false propaganda spread about his people.
Fair enough. However, sometimes it seems that we recognize or give greater importance to their horseshit history and theories, which have been rejected by serious scholars eons ago, than they actually deserve. I no longer waste my patience with people who will view my ethnic group as inferior no matter what. In a way, what they intend with these threads is an angry and bitter response, which they don´t deserve.
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Sir Infamous
May 20 2010, 12:34 AM

No self respecting S. European should give a shit about who considers him "white". HOwever he should care when there is false propaganda spread about his people.
EXACTLY!!!! Nothing more needs to be said and it's true no European wants negro and to a slightly lesser extent mongoloid admixture no doubt about that nothing is worse everything else is fine. IMO. :biggrin:
Edited by DUX MEA LUX, May 20 2010, 03:35 AM.
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Cappie211
May 19 2010, 05:15 AM
Of course when a study is published matters since the claims it makes and the conclusions it reaches are inescapably dependent on whatever data and methodologies were available at that the time of that study's completion. New data is always coming in and existing methodologies are perfected or new ones are invented that challenge or outright invalidate previous conclusions reached using older methods and limited data -- work such as the recent autosomal studies & STRUCTURE analyses I and other users have already posted. The latter make a complete mockery of your claims of a strong Negroid component in Portugal and elsewhere in southern Europe.

Here is another autosomal study and Frappe clustering analysis, this time conducted by Bryc et. al. (2010), which demonstrates the existence of a visible and statistically significant negroid component (in green) amongst southwestern Europeans (Portuguese). The study also reveals that southern Europeans have a much higher percentage of negroid ancestry than northern Europeans, who possess very little or no negro blood; the highest and most visible percentage of negroid ancestry is found amongst southwestern Europeans:

Posted Image

Fig. 1. Frappe clustering illustrating the admixed ancestry of Hispanic/Latinos shown for K = 3 and K = 7. Individuals are shown as vertical bars colored in proportion to their estimated ancestry within each cluster. Native American populations are listed in order geographically, from North to South.

There is recent evidence that STRUCTURE may not be the most effective Bayesian MCMC method for estimating genome-wide admixture proportions. The researchers Bryc et. al. (2010) write:

Population Structure. We used the software FRAPPE, which implements an expectation-maximization algorithm for estimating individual membership in clusters (24). This algorithm is more computationally efficient than other MCMC methods, allowing it to analyze many more markers than, for example, STRUCTURE (24, 28).

Genome-wide patterns of population structure and admixture among Hispanic/Latino populations

Quote:
 
You're posting quotes from studies using uniparental markers which conclude that certain regions in Portugal such as Madeira that historically had around 10% of Black African slaves today likewise show roughly 10% or so of the local population in those areas as carrying Sub-Saharan markers. Hmmm... I wonder why that is? Could it be because those 10% are directly descended from the 10% or so of Black African slaves that historically resided in Madeira? Big surprise there.


In some regions of Portugal, the percentage of sub-Saharan L lineages can reach a shocking high of 22%. This means that, depending on the region, up to one-fifth of the Portuguese mitochondrial gene pool may be comprised of negroid L lineages. V. Pereira et. al. (2010) write:

Malaria endemicity in Southwest Iberia afforded conditions for an increase of sickle cell disease (SCD), which in the region follows a clinal pattern toward the south, where foci of high prevalence were found. SCD distribution is associated with specific geographical areas, and therefore, its introduction into Iberia may be related to the migration of different populations. We have analyzed the variation of uniparental markers in Portuguese populations with high frequency of SCD - Coruche, Pias, and Alcacer do Sal - to evaluate if their present-day pattern of neutral diversity could provide evidence about people inhabiting the area over different time periods. Two hundred and eighty-five individuals were sampled in Coruche, Pias, and Alcacer do Sal. All were analyzed for the control region of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA); males were additionally examined for Y-chromosome markers. Results were then compared with data from other Portuguese and non-Portuguese populations. In Coruche, the genetic profile was similar to the profile usually found in Portugal. In Alcacer do Sal, the frequency of sub-Saharan mtDNA L lineages was the highest ever reported (22%) in Europe. In Pias, mtDNA diversity revealed higher frequencies of Mediterranean haplogroups I, J, and T than usually found in surrounding populations. The presence of Sub-Saharan maternal lineages in Alcacer do Sal is likely associated with the influx of African slaves between the 15th and 19th centuries, whereas in Pias, the Mediterranean influence might be traced to ancient contacts with Greeks, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians, who established important trading networks in southern Iberia.

Genetic characterization of uniparental lineages in populations from Southwest Iberia with past malaria endemicity

Quote:
 
Well, you obviously didn't check close enough cause that quote is indeed from a peer-reviewed research study, one that adheres to a conventional pattern of scientific methodological investigation; it's just part of a larger book on popular genetics, similar to Cavalli-Sforza's HGHG classic. The study is titled The Arabian peninsula: Gate for Human Migrations Out of Africa or Cul-de-Sac? A Mitochondrial DNA Phylogeographic Perspective and its authors are noted scholars in the field such as Vincente M. Cabrera, Khaled K. Abu-Amero and Ana M. Gonzalez (the latter of whom, let's not forget, you yourself cited as a source not too long ago).


Again, does this so-called "study" contain an Abstract? A Materials and Methods section in which an hypothesis is rigorously tested? A Results section? A Discussion section? Was it published in a peer-reviewed journal? If not, it's not a research paper and is therefore inadmissible as evidence.

Quote:
 
That statement on L3's distribution in Africa is, again, sourced to that old Salas et al. (2002) study. Many other African populations (particularly ones from North Africa) have been profiled since then, and the clade's intra-continental distribution is much better understood now. Here again is what L3's actual modern distribution in Africa looks like, from a study published just last year:
[blockquote]"in that large region it is possible to distinguish at least a northern area conformed by Egypt, Nubia, Sudan, Ethiopia and Somalia in which, at mtDNA level, the L3 haplogroups have significantly greater frequencies than in the southern area represented by Kenya, Tanzania and Mozambique, where, in compensation, the most ancestral L0 has comparatively higher frequencies."[/blockquote]Cabrera et al. (2009)

Again, this is a book chapter which summarizes information, not a legitimate study. Notice how the authors provide no citation for any of these statements? Good.

Concerning the origins and distribution of mtDNA haplogroup L3, Atkinson et. al. (2008) write:

The youngest of the major haplogroups, L3, is most common in western and eastern/southeastern sub-Saharan Africa, particularly among speakers of the Bantu language family, and is thought to have originated in eastern Africa, where it accounts for half of all types (Salas et al. 2002). Two other haplogroups descended from L3 (M and N) are the only mtDNA lineages observed outside Africa.

Bayesian coalescent inference of major human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup expansions in Africa

Quote:
 
That map is from that same old Salas et al. (2002) study your quote is based on. It is also not at all reflective of the actual proportions represented by different mtDNA clades in Africa since, as the authors themselves readily admit, the map is "combining some sub-clades for convenience, and excluding the contribution of haplogroups of non-African origin".


The map accurately reflects the percentage of mtDNA L paragroups and their respective subclades, which happen to comprise the vast majority of maternal lineages in negroid Africa. Given the fact that over 70% to 100% of sub-Saharan mtDNAs consist of only L0, L1 and L2, the exclusion of a small number of non-negroid mtDNAs isn't going to make that much of a difference anyway. Batini et. al. (2007) observe:

It was observed early on that most sub-Saharan mtDNAs (from 70% to 100%, depending on the population considered) present a specific HpaI restriction site at position 3592 (Torroni et al., 1994). These haplotypes were subsequently assigned to a lineage which was conventionally termed L (Chen et al., 1995; see Salas et al., 2002, for a review) and which contains several superhaplogroups (L0, L1, L2, and L3; Salas et al., 2004), with relative haplogroups.

Phylogeography of the human mitochondrial L1c haplogroup: Genetic signatures of the prehistory of Central Africa

Quote:
 
Again, that is not necessarily true. The modern distribution of L3 within Africa is still largely concentrated in the Northeast where it originated (see my comments and quotes above). This is not to say that Black African slaves played no part at all in the contemporary distribution of L3 clades in Portugal. I'm sure they did, albeit a minor role given the comparatively small proportion of Black Africans that carry the clade today. By the same token, it is almost certain that just about all the L0-L2 clades present in Portugal are the legacy of Black African immigration since those are the most common mtDNA clades among Sub-Saharan Africans. However, here too the presence of these clades does not automatically denote Sub-Saharan admixture since a minority of Berbers also carry them due to historic admixture.


Again, there is no evidence for this. L3 reaches its highest frequencies amongst western and east/southeast African negroes; the considerable number of sub-Saharan mtDNA L lineages found in southern Portugal and the autonomous regions of Portugal is the result of negroid admixture:

With respect to the L sequences, it is widely accepted that they have a sub-Saharan origin, excepting some L3* lineages that, as analysis of Figure 4 suggests, might indeed have a non-African origin. The presence of L sequences in North African regions does not allow us to exclude the possibility that population influxes from this region, namely the above referred Berber/Arab movement, have introduced a significant fraction of L sequences into Iberia. However, it seems more likely that most of the L lineages found nowadays in Portugal have been carried by African slaves, since the country was actively involved in the Transatlantic slave trade.

Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation

Quote:
 
That said, the samples you refer to in the studies above on modern Portugal are in all probability not ethnic Portuguese. They are by and large the descendants of the same slaves that were imported to Portugal from Black Africa. This is why, for example, the percentage of Black African slaves that historically resided in Madeira in Portugal (around 10%) so closely resembles the proportion of people living in Madeira today that carry Sub-Saharan markers (also around 10%). The latter are simply the descendants of the former.


No, the people being sampled are obviously ethnic Portuguese with negroid admixture that dates from the period of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. The majority of their ancestors were indigenous Caucasians; however, around 10% to 20% of their maternal ancestors were negro slaves.

Quote:
 
Simple. It states that L3 originated in Northeast Africa (where the clade's modern distribution and diversification is largest) as did the founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 from which all Y chromosomes outside of Africa are likewise descended; this is why downstream clades such as DE which originated in Asia are said by the authors to have "returned" to Northeast Africa:
[blockquote]"The presence of two underived E-M96 Saudi lineages raises interesting questions related to the macrohaplogroup DE-YAP phylogeography. The recent resolutions of the CDEF-M168 tripartite structure to the bipartite DE-YAP and CF-P143 [16,31] extends the conversation regarding the early successful colonization of Eurasia. While several scenarios remain potentially possible the most parsimonious model is the most prudent. This model proposes the successful colonization of Eurasia by migration(s) of populations containing precursor Y-chromosome founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 and basal mtDNA L3 representatives. Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E."[/blockquote]Abu-Amero et al. (2009)


The passage states that the evolution and diversification of the mtDNA M and N lineages may have occurred in regions adjacent to northeast Africa, not that L3 originates in northeast Africa. Where does the passage say that L3 originated in northeast Africa?

Quote:
 
You have not even come close to proving such a thing, and no amount of repeating that you have will change that.


That the Portuguese have considerably more negroid ancestry than other European populations has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. I think you need to take a good look at the results of the Frappe clustering analysis again. If you look at the column marked "SW Europe," you'll notice that southwestern Europeans have on average about 5% to 10% negroid admixture:

Posted Image

Quote:
 
Still irrelevant since there's no indication that Portuguese people in the main have these "intermediate phenotypes" you speak of.


No, but given the fact that southern Portuguese have on average anywhere from between 10% to 20% negroid mtDNA, it shouldn't come as any surprise that a large minority of Portuguese would manifest negroid physical traits.
Edited by Racial Awareness, May 20 2010, 06:55 AM.
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cmariexo
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people from madeira have sub-saharan ancestry, idk about the rest of the country
Edited by cmariexo, May 25 2010, 11:55 PM.
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May 19 2010, 02:46 PM
"Suggestive of" preceded by other possible explanations and caveats, and followed by an admission that the question remains unresolved, is hardly a conclusion.


Although the authors admit uncertainty as to what extent the Yoruba HapMap is representative of North African genetic diversity and that this question needs to be resolved by means of future research, it is nevertheless true that the authors (tentatively) select the "West African negroid gene flow hypothesis" as the most parsimonious explanation of their results. It may not be the best conclusion, but it is certainly the likeliest conclusion given the data presented so far.

Quote:
 
The Athanasiadis study doesn't say anything about "admixture" or "Negroids".

Yes, but the Athanasiadis study quantifies the percentage of sub-Saharan African gene flow towards southern Europe using Ivorian haplotypes. The Ivorians are an obviously negroid population.

Quote:
 
I didn't say you were a Nordicist or a Kempian. My point was that WNs' obsession with finding/exaggerating black admixture in Southern Europe is shared by Afrocentrists


Well, many WNists feel threatened by the hordes of Third World invaders who are currently being allowed into Western nations in order to steal jobs, commit crime, breed like vermin and slowly destroy our Western European culture. They see a parallel between what is happening to Western nations now with what happened in Portugal over 400 years ago, when 10% of the population of Lisboa and the island of Madeira were negroes. At one point, Portugal was one of the greatest maritime empires the world had ever seen; then, the slave-traders began importing large numbers of negroes into Portugal during the middle of the fifteenth century. Now, Portugal is the "sick man of Europe," an economic backwater where unemployment rates are high and the level of negroid maternal ancestry can reach a shocking high of 25%.
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Praetorian
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May 20 2010, 04:52 AM
Cappie211
May 19 2010, 05:15 AM
Of course when a study is published matters since the claims it makes and the conclusions it reaches are inescapably dependent on whatever data and methodologies were available at that the time of that study's completion. New data is always coming in and existing methodologies are perfected or new ones are invented that challenge or outright invalidate previous conclusions reached using older methods and limited data -- work such as the recent autosomal studies & STRUCTURE analyses I and other users have already posted. The latter make a complete mockery of your claims of a strong Negroid component in Portugal and elsewhere in southern Europe.

Here is another autosomal study and Frappe clustering analysis, this time conducted by Bryc et. al. (2010), which demonstrates the existence of a visible and statistically significant negroid component (in green) amongst southwestern Europeans (Portuguese). The study also reveals that southern Europeans have a much higher percentage of negroid ancestry than northern Europeans, who possess very little or no negro blood; the highest and most visible percentage of negroid ancestry is found amongst southwestern Europeans:

Posted Image

Fig. 1. Frappe clustering illustrating the admixed ancestry of Hispanic/Latinos shown for K = 3 and K = 7. Individuals are shown as vertical bars colored in proportion to their estimated ancestry within each cluster. Native American populations are listed in order geographically, from North to South.

There is recent evidence that STRUCTURE may not be the most effective Bayesian MCMC method for estimating genome-wide admixture proportions. The researchers Bryc et. al. (2010) write:

Population Structure. We used the software FRAPPE, which implements an expectation-maximization algorithm for estimating individual membership in clusters (24). This algorithm is more computationally efficient than other MCMC methods, allowing it to analyze many more markers than, for example, STRUCTURE (24, 28).

Genome-wide patterns of population structure and admixture among Hispanic/Latino populations

Quote:
 
You're posting quotes from studies using uniparental markers which conclude that certain regions in Portugal such as Madeira that historically had around 10% of Black African slaves today likewise show roughly 10% or so of the local population in those areas as carrying Sub-Saharan markers. Hmmm... I wonder why that is? Could it be because those 10% are directly descended from the 10% or so of Black African slaves that historically resided in Madeira? Big surprise there.


In some regions of Portugal, the percentage of sub-Saharan L lineages can reach a shocking high of 22%. This means that, depending on the region, up to one-fifth of the Portuguese mitochondrial gene pool may be comprised of negroid L lineages. V. Pereira et. al. (2010) write:

Malaria endemicity in Southwest Iberia afforded conditions for an increase of sickle cell disease (SCD), which in the region follows a clinal pattern toward the south, where foci of high prevalence were found. SCD distribution is associated with specific geographical areas, and therefore, its introduction into Iberia may be related to the migration of different populations. We have analyzed the variation of uniparental markers in Portuguese populations with high frequency of SCD - Coruche, Pias, and Alcacer do Sal - to evaluate if their present-day pattern of neutral diversity could provide evidence about people inhabiting the area over different time periods. Two hundred and eighty-five individuals were sampled in Coruche, Pias, and Alcacer do Sal. All were analyzed for the control region of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA); males were additionally examined for Y-chromosome markers. Results were then compared with data from other Portuguese and non-Portuguese populations. In Coruche, the genetic profile was similar to the profile usually found in Portugal. In Alcacer do Sal, the frequency of sub-Saharan mtDNA L lineages was the highest ever reported (22%) in Europe. In Pias, mtDNA diversity revealed higher frequencies of Mediterranean haplogroups I, J, and T than usually found in surrounding populations. The presence of Sub-Saharan maternal lineages in Alcacer do Sal is likely associated with the influx of African slaves between the 15th and 19th centuries, whereas in Pias, the Mediterranean influence might be traced to ancient contacts with Greeks, Phoenicians, and Carthaginians, who established important trading networks in southern Iberia.

Genetic characterization of uniparental lineages in populations from Southwest Iberia with past malaria endemicity

Quote:
 
Well, you obviously didn't check close enough cause that quote is indeed from a peer-reviewed research study, one that adheres to a conventional pattern of scientific methodological investigation; it's just part of a larger book on popular genetics, similar to Cavalli-Sforza's HGHG classic. The study is titled The Arabian peninsula: Gate for Human Migrations Out of Africa or Cul-de-Sac? A Mitochondrial DNA Phylogeographic Perspective and its authors are noted scholars in the field such as Vincente M. Cabrera, Khaled K. Abu-Amero and Ana M. Gonzalez (the latter of whom, let's not forget, you yourself cited as a source not too long ago).


Again, does this so-called "study" contain an Abstract? A Materials and Methods section in which an hypothesis is rigorously tested? A Results section? A Discussion section? Was it published in a peer-reviewed journal? If not, it's not a research paper and is therefore inadmissible as evidence.

Quote:
 
That statement on L3's distribution in Africa is, again, sourced to that old Salas et al. (2002) study. Many other African populations (particularly ones from North Africa) have been profiled since then, and the clade's intra-continental distribution is much better understood now. Here again is what L3's actual modern distribution in Africa looks like, from a study published just last year:
[blockquote]"in that large region it is possible to distinguish at least a northern area conformed by Egypt, Nubia, Sudan, Ethiopia and Somalia in which, at mtDNA level, the L3 haplogroups have significantly greater frequencies than in the southern area represented by Kenya, Tanzania and Mozambique, where, in compensation, the most ancestral L0 has comparatively higher frequencies."[/blockquote]Cabrera et al. (2009)

Again, this is a book chapter which summarizes information, not a legitimate study. Notice how the authors provide no citation for any of these statements? Good.

Concerning the origins and distribution of mtDNA haplogroup L3, Atkinson et. al. (2008) write:

The youngest of the major haplogroups, L3, is most common in western and eastern/southeastern sub-Saharan Africa, particularly among speakers of the Bantu language family, and is thought to have originated in eastern Africa, where it accounts for half of all types (Salas et al. 2002). Two other haplogroups descended from L3 (M and N) are the only mtDNA lineages observed outside Africa.

Bayesian coalescent inference of major human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup expansions in Africa

Quote:
 
That map is from that same old Salas et al. (2002) study your quote is based on. It is also not at all reflective of the actual proportions represented by different mtDNA clades in Africa since, as the authors themselves readily admit, the map is "combining some sub-clades for convenience, and excluding the contribution of haplogroups of non-African origin".


The map accurately reflects the percentage of mtDNA L paragroups and their respective subclades, which happen to comprise the vast majority of maternal lineages in negroid Africa. Given the fact that over 70% to 100% of sub-Saharan mtDNAs consist of only L0, L1 and L2, the exclusion of a small number of non-negroid mtDNAs isn't going to make that much of a difference anyway. Batini et. al. (2007) observe:

It was observed early on that most sub-Saharan mtDNAs (from 70% to 100%, depending on the population considered) present a specific HpaI restriction site at position 3592 (Torroni et al., 1994). These haplotypes were subsequently assigned to a lineage which was conventionally termed L (Chen et al., 1995; see Salas et al., 2002, for a review) and which contains several superhaplogroups (L0, L1, L2, and L3; Salas et al., 2004), with relative haplogroups.

Phylogeography of the human mitochondrial L1c haplogroup: Genetic signatures of the prehistory of Central Africa

Quote:
 
Again, that is not necessarily true. The modern distribution of L3 within Africa is still largely concentrated in the Northeast where it originated (see my comments and quotes above). This is not to say that Black African slaves played no part at all in the contemporary distribution of L3 clades in Portugal. I'm sure they did, albeit a minor role given the comparatively small proportion of Black Africans that carry the clade today. By the same token, it is almost certain that just about all the L0-L2 clades present in Portugal are the legacy of Black African immigration since those are the most common mtDNA clades among Sub-Saharan Africans. However, here too the presence of these clades does not automatically denote Sub-Saharan admixture since a minority of Berbers also carry them due to historic admixture.


Again, there is no evidence for this. L3 reaches its highest frequencies amongst western and east/southeast African negroes; the considerable number of sub-Saharan mtDNA L lineages found in southern Portugal and the autonomous regions of Portugal is the result of negroid admixture:

With respect to the L sequences, it is widely accepted that they have a sub-Saharan origin, excepting some L3* lineages that, as analysis of Figure 4 suggests, might indeed have a non-African origin. The presence of L sequences in North African regions does not allow us to exclude the possibility that population influxes from this region, namely the above referred Berber/Arab movement, have introduced a significant fraction of L sequences into Iberia. However, it seems more likely that most of the L lineages found nowadays in Portugal have been carried by African slaves, since the country was actively involved in the Transatlantic slave trade.

Diversity of mtDNA lineages in Portugal: not a genetic edge of European variation

Quote:
 
That said, the samples you refer to in the studies above on modern Portugal are in all probability not ethnic Portuguese. They are by and large the descendants of the same slaves that were imported to Portugal from Black Africa. This is why, for example, the percentage of Black African slaves that historically resided in Madeira in Portugal (around 10%) so closely resembles the proportion of people living in Madeira today that carry Sub-Saharan markers (also around 10%). The latter are simply the descendants of the former.


No, the people being sampled are obviously ethnic Portuguese with negroid admixture that dates from the period of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. The majority of their ancestors were indigenous Caucasians; however, around 10% to 20% of their maternal ancestors were negro slaves.

Quote:
 
Simple. It states that L3 originated in Northeast Africa (where the clade's modern distribution and diversification is largest) as did the founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 from which all Y chromosomes outside of Africa are likewise descended; this is why downstream clades such as DE which originated in Asia are said by the authors to have "returned" to Northeast Africa:
[blockquote]"The presence of two underived E-M96 Saudi lineages raises interesting questions related to the macrohaplogroup DE-YAP phylogeography. The recent resolutions of the CDEF-M168 tripartite structure to the bipartite DE-YAP and CF-P143 [16,31] extends the conversation regarding the early successful colonization of Eurasia. While several scenarios remain potentially possible the most parsimonious model is the most prudent. This model proposes the successful colonization of Eurasia by migration(s) of populations containing precursor Y-chromosome founder macrohaplogroup CDET-M168 and basal mtDNA L3 representatives. Regions near but external to northeast Africa, like the Levant or the southern Arabian Peninsula could have served as an incubator for the early diversification of non-African uniparental haplogroup varieties like Y chromosome DE-YAP*, CF-P143* and mtDNA M and N molecular ancestors. These would have spread globally and diversified over time and space. This model would imply that both CF-P143 and the DE-YAP evolved nearby but outside Africa. One DE-YAP* ancestor would have spread to Asia and evolved to haplogroup D while another DE-YAP* returned to northeast Africa and evolved into hg E."[/blockquote]Abu-Amero et al. (2009)


The passage states that the evolution and diversification of the mtDNA M and N lineages may have occurred in regions adjacent to northeast Africa, not that L3 originates in northeast Africa. Where does the passage say that L3 originated in northeast Africa?

Quote:
 
You have not even come close to proving such a thing, and no amount of repeating that you have will change that.


That the Portuguese have considerably more negroid ancestry than other European populations has been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. I think you need to take a good look at the results of the Frappe clustering analysis again. If you look at the column marked "SW Europe," you'll notice that southwestern Europeans have on average about 5% to 10% negroid admixture:

Posted Image

Quote:
 
Still irrelevant since there's no indication that Portuguese people in the main have these "intermediate phenotypes" you speak of.


No, but given the fact that southern Portuguese have on average anywhere from between 10% to 20% negroid mtDNA, it shouldn't come as any surprise that a large minority of Portuguese would manifest negroid physical traits.
Do I read this correctly.

The charts indicate that Sardinians, Tuscans and "Italians" (what parts of Italy?)have virtually no SS African ancestry.
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Quote:
 
Here is another autosomal study and Frappe clustering analysis, this time conducted by Bryc et. al. (2010), which demonstrates the existence of a visible and statistically significant negroid component (in green) amongst southwestern Europeans (Portuguese). The study also reveals that southern Europeans have a much higher percentage of negroid ancestry than northern Europeans, who possess very little or no negro blood; the highest and most visible percentage of negroid ancestry is found amongst southwestern Europeans:

Posted Image


It looks like no one except for SW Europe has any more than a drop of green in there..and that only looks like about 3%.....I see a tiny tiny bit in SE Europe, NNE Europe, and France. <1%

absolutely nothing in Basques, Italians, or Tuscans.
Edited by Arch Hades, May 20 2010, 07:06 AM.
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May 20 2010, 06:51 AM
Do I read this correctly.

The charts indicate that Sardinians, Tuscans and "Italians" (what parts of Italy?)have virtually no SS African ancestry.


Yes, you're reading the chart correctly. Unlike the Portuguese, African negroid admixture in Italians is negligible.
Edited by Racial Awareness, May 20 2010, 07:09 AM.
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May 20 2010, 06:41 AM


Well, many WNists feel threatened by the hordes of Third World invaders who are currently being allowed into Western nations in order to steal jobs, commit crime, breed like vermin and slowly destroy our Western European culture. They see a parallel between what is happening to Western nations now with what happened in Portugal over 400 years ago, when 10% of the population of Lisboa and the island of Madeira were negroes. At one point, Portugal was one of the greatest maritime empires the world had ever seen; then, the slave-traders began importing large numbers of negroes into Portugal during the middle of the fifteenth century. Now, Portugal is the "sick man of Europe," an economic backwater where unemployment rates are high and the level of negroid maternal ancestry can reach a shocking high of 25%.


At one point Britain owned 1/4th of the world, and Spain and France had huge empires as well, as well the older empires of Antiquity in South-Eastern Europe...In fact, the only places which haven't had impressive empires are the most Northern places like Scandinavia and the Baltic. But anyways, no one today in Europe has empire.

2009 Human Development Index....Portugal is not at the top, but it is ahead of the "pure" Baltic nations.

1 Iceland 0.968
2 Norway 0.968
3 Canada 0.967
4 Australia 0.965
5 Ireland 0.960
6 Netherlands 0.958
7 Sweden 0.958
8 Japan 0.956
9 Luxembourg 0.956
10 Switzerland 0.955
11 France 0.955
12 Finland 0.954
13 Denmark 0.952
14 Austria 0.951
15 United States 0.950 ▬
16 Spain 0.949
17 Belgium 0.948
18 Greece 0.947
19 Italy 0.945
20 New Zealand 0.944
21 United Kingdom 0.942
22 Hong Kong 0.942
23 Germany 0.940
24 Israel 0.930
25 South Korea 0.928
26 Slovenia 0.923 (Slav) lol only slav country in the top 35
27 Brunei 0.919
28 Singapore 0.918
29 Kuwait 0.912
30 Cyprus 0.912
31 United Arab Emirates 0.903
32 Bahrain 0.902
33 Portugal 0.900
34 Qatar 0.899
35 Czech Republic 0.897
36 Malta 0.894
37 Barbados 0.889
38 Hungary 0.877
39 Poland 0.875
40 Chile 0.874
41 Slovakia 0.872
42 Estonia 0.871
43 Lithuania 0.869
44 Latvia 0.863
45 Croatia 0.862
46 Argentina 0.860
47 Uruguay 0.859
48 Cuba 0.855
49 Bahamas 0.854
50 Costa Rica 0.847
51 Mexico 0.842
52 Libya 0.840
53 Oman 0.839
54 Seychelles 0.836
55 Saudi Arabia 0.835
56 Bulgaria 0.834
57 Trinidad and Tobago 0.833
58 Panama 0.832
59 Antigua and Barbuda 0.830
60 Saint Kitts and Nevis 0.830
61 Venezuela 0.826
62 Romania 0.825
63 Malaysia 0.823
64 Montenegro 0.822
65 Serbia 0.821
66 Saint Lucia 0.821
67 Belarus 0.817
68 Macedonia 0.808
69 Albania 0.807
70 Brazil 0.807
71 Kazakhstan 0.807
72 Ecuador 0.807
73 Russia 0.806
74 Mauritius 0.802
75 Bosnia and Herzegovina 0.802



Medium
76 Turkey 0.798
77 Dominica 0.797
78 Lebanon 0.796
79 Peru 0.788
80 Colombia 0.787
81 Thailand 0.786
82 Ukraine 0.786
83 Armenia 0.777
84 Iran 0.777
85 Tonga 0.774
86 Grenada 0.774
87 Jamaica 0.771
88 Belize 0.771 ▬
89 Suriname 0.770
90 Jordan 0.769
91 Dominican Republic 0.768
92 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 0.766
93 Georgia 0.763
94 China[nb 2] 0.762
95 Tunisia 0.762
96 Samoa 0.760
97 Azerbaijan 0.758
98 Paraguay 0.752
99 Maldives 0.749
100 Algeria 0.748
101 El Salvador 0.747
102 Philippines 0.745
103 Fiji 0.743 ▬
104 Sri Lanka 0.742
105 Syria 0.736
106 Palestine 0.731
107 Gabon 0.729
108 Turkmenistan 0.728
109 Indonesia 0.726
110 Guyana 0.725
111 Bolivia 0.723
112 Mongolia 0.720
113 Moldova 0.719
114 Vietnam 0.718
115 Equatorial Guinea 0.717
116 Egypt 0.716
117 Honduras 0.714
118 Cape Verde 0.705
119 Uzbekistan 0.701
120 Nicaragua 0.699
121 Guatemala 0.696
122 Kyrgyzstan 0.694
123 Vanuatu 0.686
124 Tajikistan 0.684
125 South Africa 0.670
126 Botswana 0.664
127 Morocco 0.646
128 São Tomé and Príncipe 0.643
129 Namibia 0.634
130 Congo 0.619
131 Bhutan 0.613
132 India 0.609
133 Laos 0.608
134 Solomon Islands 0.591
135 Burma 0.585
136 Cambodia 0.575
137 Comoros 0.572
138 Yemen 0.567
139 Pakistan 0.562
140 Mauritania 0.557
141 Swaziland 0.542
142 Ghana 0.533
143 Madagascar 0.533
144 Kenya 0.532
145 Nepal 0.530
146 Sudan 0.526
147 Bangladesh 0.524
148 Haiti 0.521
149 Papua New Guinea 0.516
150 Cameroon 0.514 ▬
151 Djibouti 0.513
152 Tanzania 0.503
153 Senegal 0.502



Low

154 Nigeria 0.499
155 Lesotho 0.496
156 Uganda 0.493
157 Angola 0.484
158 Timor-Leste 0.483
159 Togo 0.479
160 Gambia 0.471
161 Benin 0.459
162 Malawi 0.457
163 Zambia 0.453
164 Eritrea 0.442 ▬
165 Rwanda 0.435
166 Côte d'Ivoire 0.431
167 Guinea 0.423
168 Mali 0.391
169 Ethiopia 0.389
170 Chad 0.389
171 Guinea-Bissau 0.383
172 Burundi 0.382
173 Burkina Faso 0.372
174 Niger 0.370
175 Mozambique 0.366
176 Liberia 0.364
177 Democratic Republic of the Congo 0.361
178 Central African Republic 0.352
179 Sierra Leone 0.329
Edited by Arch Hades, May 20 2010, 07:30 AM.
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Racial Awareness
May 20 2010, 06:41 AM
Well, many WNists feel threatened by the hordes of Third World invaders who are currently being allowed into Western nations in order to steal jobs, commit crime, breed like vermin and slowly destroy our Western European culture. They see a parallel between what is happening to Western nations now with what happened in Portugal over 400 years ago, when 10% of the population of Lisboa and the island of Madeira were negroes. At one point, Portugal was one of the greatest maritime empires the world had ever seen; then, the slave-traders began importing large numbers of negroes into Portugal during the middle of the fifteenth century. Now, Portugal is the "sick man of Europe," an economic backwater where unemployment rates are high and the level of negroid maternal ancestry can reach a shocking high of 25%.
1) To be brief, the fascistic and stubborn Salazar regime in Portugal, propped up by Anglo-American reactionary interests, maintained a colonial empire against the world trend and the will of the people at a tremendous cost until 1974. Per-capita wise, Portugal had 4 times more troops mobilized in Africa during 1961-1974 than the US did during Vietnam war. In absolute terms, Portugal stubbornly maintained a large colonial empire longer than the other western European countries.

2) Portugal´s economic decline in the 16th century was the result of Inquisition, expulsion of Jewish merchants which was most of Portugal´s bourgoisie at that time and their re-settlement in Protestant Europe and Turkish territories. Portugal was left without a CAPITALIST class, its early experiment in global trade and capitalism was relocated to Holland and Britain, and the country basically re-feudalized: reverted to pre-capitalist 3 class Noble-Clergy-People social organization. Aristocratic inbred "limpeza de sangue" imbeciles and fanatical priests, who later tied themselves with merchant capitalists in protestant Britain by extremely unfair treaties sent Portugal to ruin. Please read works of respected German scholars Weber and Sombart.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/moriyuki/abukuma/weber_texts.html

http://socserv2.socsci.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/sombart/jews.pdf


3) Portugal´s current economic woes are no different from those of other southern European countries or Rep. of Ireland. Currently, in the democratic era Portugal isn´t appreciably less developed than other countries in southern Europe and has a higher standard of living than most of eastern Europe.
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