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Berbers are possibly the first people of Ireland
Topic Started: Apr 4 2010, 03:41 AM (7,718 Views)
Flashrad
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When the Celts arrived in Ireland, they met and indigenous population there, wich is almost unknow. Could it be the Berbers?


North Africans may have beaten Celts to Ireland
10 September 2007

WHEN the Celts landed in Ireland 2,500 years ago, they may have been met by a population of North Africans, scientists now believe, writes Jan Battles.

Linguists say a study of Irish and other Celtic languages has produced possible evidence that when the Celts invaded Ireland and Britain there were already Afro-Asiatic speakers here. Celtic languages - Irish, Scots Gaelic and Welsh - incorporate grammatical traits found in Afro-Asiatic tongues that are otherwise unrelated, according to research published last week in Science magazine.

Other Celtic languages that were spoken in continental Europe and have since died out did not have these grammatical quirks. Afro-Asiatic languages are currently spoken in countries across Northern Africa and the Near East. This points to the possibility that there was early contact between Celtic and North African populations in the British Isles.

Orin Gensler, of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany, said the similarities would be explained if, when Afro-Asiatic people learnt Celtic from the new immigrants, they "perpetuated aspects of their own grammar into the new language". Gensler has studied many grammatical features found in both Celtic and Afro-Asiatic languages. He found many of the shared features were rare in other languages.

Linguists have discovered surprising differences between Celtic languages and related languages such as French, while seeing striking resemblances between Celtic and Afro-Asiatic languages that are spoken in countries including Morocco, Tunisia and Algeria.

Gensler examined features of the languages such as the order of words in a sentence. In Gaelic and Welsh the standard sentence structure is verbsubject-object, which is a rare sequence. This is also the case in many Afro-Asiatic languages. Celtic languages that used to be spoken in continental Europe had the verb in the final or middle position.

Berniece Wuethrich, author of the Science article, said: "The only other non-linguistic evidence that could point towards this connection is in blood type, but it is not definitive. Irish and British people have different proportions of blood types to most Europeans. Where there are comparable proportions is in the Atlas mountains in Northern Africa, home of the Berber people." Berber is a branch of the Afro-Asiatic language group.

Geneticists say there is no evidence of North African ancestors in Irish genes. "There is no particular correspondence between northwest Africa and this island but that is not to say we won’t find something," said Dr Dan Bradley of the department of genetics at Trinity College. "There is no good genetic evidence to support what the linguists are saying. You have to keep an open mind though."

While in general clues about the identity of prehistoric inhabitants are gleaned from archeological remains and DNA, linguists say that certain elements of a language can preserve information about ancient times.

It is widely known that when the Celts invaded Ireland there were people already here. Man is first believed to have arrived on Irish shores about 9,000 years ago - the earliest-known archeological evidence for human habitation dates to 7,000BC.

Archeologists are not sure of the origins of prehistoric immigrants to Ireland. A team of scientists in Dublin and Belfast, including Bradley, is studying the genes of modern Irish people to find evidence of these origins, a project which is partly funded by the government’s millennium fund.
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David
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interesting
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Robert
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trog has a middle eastern haplotype. Paleo-atlantids quite often resemble berbers as well. Actually, when I measured my own head metrics I matched up to a nordic riffian as well. Would not surprise me.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ErmfiV6nM[/youtube]
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David
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that good to know :)
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Crimson Guard
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The Celtic language is closest to Italic, not to Afro-Asiatic. The "Hamito-Semitic" hypothesis is largely a myth, and based more upon the romanticized idea that the Berbers(North Africans) from the Canaries built the megalithic and migrated up to North Western Europe.




The other idea at time was that the Iberians(including the Basque-non Indo-European speakers) were related to the Berbers, and hence the connections to North Africa. we do know that Britain was colonized by pre-historic Iberians( modern day Spain) and likely France. North Africans are separated from Europeans, even if there was minor back and fourth interaction it is largely negligible and probably goes back older than 6,000 years. Only real fact is that Caucasoid came from Africa/Near East and pushed into Europe starting from points in Iberia, Italy and the Balkans. Berbers are however a Mediterranean(with some Alpine) but today mixed with Negroid and such in various degrees. So some looking like Europeans is to be expected as Berbers are still a Atlantic-Mediterranean people..




Quote:
 
trog has middle eastern haplotype



Try not to be so fallacious and there is discussion over that:

U3b is not Gypsy DNA

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2150747/1/#new

and this thread:
My 23andme test

http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/1385461/1/

Doesnt seem to be the case, probably came from Italy/Sicily or Anatolia into Britain poissbly during the Iron Age or such:

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Robert
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29

And that's why U is specifically attributed to these groups right?

"The old age has led to a wide distribution of the descendant subgroups that harbor specific European, Berber, Indian, Arab, northern Caucasus Mountains and the Near East clades.[2]"

U originated from the middle east.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ErmfiV6nM[/youtube]
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Qart-Hadash
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The first migration to Ireland was from Iberian Peninsula during the Ice Age*.
I highly doubt that , these persons spoke "Afro-Asiatic" , since , this language family was introduced in North Africa by Capsian migrations*. However , Proto-Atlanto-Med of Spain were likely to be related to Ibero-Maurisian type of North Africa , and that is why there are modern Berbers who do ressemble Atlanto-Meds.
Edited by Qart-Hadash, Apr 4 2010, 02:53 PM.
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samysamy25
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Pre-pre-historic Iberians (modern day Spain) are a new entrants in the peninsula (Genetically is Prove it) they have no connection with the first people or with Mechtoides and Capsians but they have probably some relations to them at the end of the Ice Age in another way
Actually PAA family is believed for an African origins ,if we look at the Nature of berber Languages we find more than 32 different berber languages and even within a single language we find a different Berber dialects completely different to the mother tongue Aka we know that the separation between 2 Berber languages in Morocco is estimated between 1500 to 3500 and this raises a several questions even about the nature of linguistic classification that did. how language group filed a separable and so different with other AA languages as recent like the ancient Egyptian

Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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Qart-Hadash
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samysamy25
Apr 4 2010, 04:37 PM
Pre-pre-historic Iberians (modern day Spain) are a new entrants in the peninsula (Genetically is Prove it) they have no connection with the first people or with Mechtoides and Capsians but they have probably some relations to them at the end of the Ice Age in another way.

Actually PAA family is believed for an African origins ,if we look at the Nature of berber Languages we find more than 32 different berber languages and even within a single language we find a different Berber dialects completely different to the mother tongue Aka we know that the separation between 2 Berber languages in Morocco is estimated between 1500 to 3500 and this raises a several questions even about the nature of linguistic classification that did. how language group filed a separable and so different with other AA languages as recent like the ancient Egyptian


Yeah , the paternal lineage of a large part of Spaniards is R1b , shared with Irish people and is relatively recent because it belongs to only one sub-clade , when most of divers R1b sub-clades are found in Eastern Europe*.
I think the relation between Spanish and Berbers is mostly found in the MTdna

Proto-Afrasian language is a very old archaic proto-language . In this sense Proto-Berber language was surely born way long time ago , and then separated itself in several languages by speading itself in Northern Africa. That's why most of studies of Afrasian languages were based on grammatical and syntaxal affliations , the vocabulary can be close , but not as the two other affliations , however if the paternal lineage that migrated to Ireland from Spain was mostly West-European-R1b sub-clade , then I don't think they've spoken a AA language , but one maybe close to Basque or Iberic? before adopting Proto-Celtic language lately (Ironically , even if Ireland is seen as a typical Celtic country , None Proto-Pre-Historic Celtic traces were found in Ireland , which means that the presence of Celtic language is relatively recent , and may have coming from Scotland* and Great Britain* during its expansion).
Edited by Qart-Hadash, Apr 4 2010, 06:07 PM.
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samysamy25
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what is this ? ur fashion theories again ?
who talks about celtic and ur Arhcaic afrasian (I never heard in my life in a language called archaic) Lol
and from where u claimed that Irish have one sub-glade of R1b
seriously Algerians are a kind of parasites that say anything, go to play outside , you can not even understand what you write ;right Now !! Lol Archaic ;nmtDNA ,R1b sub-glade :::::::!!!!!! Lol
anything as usual just a boy who talk anything
Edited by samysamy25, Apr 4 2010, 06:13 PM.
Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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David
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interesting
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Qart-Hadash
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samysamy25
Apr 4 2010, 06:12 PM
what is this ? ur fashion theories again ?
who talks about celtic and ur Arhcaic afrasian (I never heard in my life in a language called archaic) Lol
and from where u claimed that Irish have one sub-glade of R1b
seriously Algerians are a kind of parasites that say anything, go to play outside , you can not even understand what you write ;right Now !! Lol Archaic ;nmtDNA ,R1b sub-glade :::::::!!!!!! Lol
anything as usual just a boy who talk anything
English dictionnary 2010 : "Archaic" : Definition : Ancient : which is not used anymore : Primitive.
Proto-Afrasian is an ARCHAIC Proto-language.

If you don't know the language (actually Archaic word exists in French : Archaïque) .
it's not my fault. Learn English !

Actually , most of R1b found in western Europe belongs to one marker/sub-clade of R1b.
This R1b marker can be found as high as 99% in Western Ireland*.

I can't barely understand your English , and you call me "boy who talkS anything"?.
Edited by Qart-Hadash, Apr 4 2010, 06:52 PM.
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samysamy25
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Edit
Edited by samysamy25, Apr 25 2010, 06:11 PM.
Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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Qart-Hadash
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samysamy25
Apr 4 2010, 07:02 PM
someone has extended a joke by any chance? a kinda of :poop: just Look on :point:
:lol: that's your only argument ?
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samysamy25
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Look on this one :

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Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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Crimson Guard
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According to his they could be easily introduced from "Roman soldiers from the Balkans".


Quote:
 
Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin

Steven C. Bird

Abstract



The invasion of Britain by the Roman military in CE 43, and the subsequent occupation of Britain for nearly four centuries, brought thousands of soldiers from the Balkan peninsula to Britain as part of auxiliary units and as regular legionnaires. The presence of Haplogroup E3b1a-M78 among the male populations of present-day Wales, England and Scotland, and its nearly complete absence among the modern male population of Ireland, provide a potential genetic indicator of settlement during the 1st through 4th Centuries CE by Roman soldiers from the Balkan peninsula and their male Romano-British descendants. Haplotype data from several major genetic surveys of Britain and Ireland are examined, analyzed and correlated with historical, epigraphic and archaeological information, with the goal of identifying any significant phylogeographic associations between E3b1a-M78 and those known Romano-British settlements and military posts that were associated specifically with Roman soldiers of Balkan origin. Studies by Cruciani et al. (2007), Perečić et al. (2005), and Marjanovic et al. (2005), examining the distribution of E3b1a-M78 and E3b1a2-V13 in the Balkans, are analyzed further to provide evidence of phylogeographic associations between the E3b1a2 haplotypes identified within the Balkans by these studies and those regions of the Balkans occupied first by the Roman army in antiquity. E3b1a2 is found to be at its highest frequency worldwide in the geographic region corresponding closely to the ancient Roman province of Moesia Superior, a region that today encompasses Kosovo, southern Serbia, northern Macedonia and extreme northwestern Bulgaria. The Balkan studies also provide evidence to support the use of E3b1a-M78 (in the present study) as a close proxy for the presence of E3b1a2-V13 (representing 85% of the parent E3b1a-M78 clade) in both the Balkans and in Britain.
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faintsmile1992
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Its more likely the language substrate reached North Africa from Atlantic Europe since its supposed to be the strongest in Insular Celtic. Basque is sometimes implicated as sharing the substrate, as well.
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Juba
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This sounds really weird.
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faintsmile1992
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Well. the North African 'Mechtoid' type is similar to the true Cro-Magnon from the Dordogne, and the closest population to Cro-Magnon today are the Sarakatsani of Greece. There's also evidence for ancient gene flow from Europe into the Maghreb so its not that weird.
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bub
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Anyone know anything about Irish Gypsies/Travellers?
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