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Haplogroup E1b1a (Y-DNA); North african origins CRUCIANI ET 2009
Topic Started: Jan 11 2010, 11:49 PM (29,480 Views)
samysamy25
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Sampr
Jan 15 2010, 10:25 PM
samysamy25
Jan 15 2010, 10:23 PM
:rolleyes: from where u get this Idea ?
by the way they are related but the bantuid/congoid marker have a North african origin and before this the Eurasid Paleo-asianid roots according to the recent genetic papers
their blackness is possibly a recent mutation and Evolution AKA the caucasians exist in africa before the bantuid presence :cool: No problem there
Nope, blacks are the more old human race, caucasians and mongoloids came after.
there u have a problem ,what a blacks u meant ?
there is a several sub-saharan peoples wich are Not the same !!!! by the way this is another subject
but sorry they aren't the first neither the old !! at all :cool:
Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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Sampr
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samysamy25
Jan 15 2010, 10:33 PM
there u have a problem ,what a blacks u meant ?
there is a several sub-saharan peoples wich are Not the same !!!! by the way this is another subject
but sorry they aren't the first neither the old !! at all :cool:
The Sub-Saharan Africans, who range from dark chocolate to reddish-brown, those black Africans, they are the first and more ancient modern human race to date.
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samysamy25
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Sampr
Jan 15 2010, 10:37 PM
samysamy25
Jan 15 2010, 10:33 PM
there u have a problem ,what a blacks u meant ?
there is a several sub-saharan peoples wich are Not the same !!!! by the way this is another subject
but sorry they aren't the first neither the old !! at all :cool:
The Sub-Saharan Africans, who range from dark chocolate to reddish-brown, those black Africans, they are the first and more ancient modern human race to date.
Nop ! Not for the first Homo-sapiens they aren't ,majority are so youngest according to their bantu neolithic expansion ... the anthroplogy confirm that they weren't the major or the ancient people of africa during the Paleoltihic and Holocene Era ....and I have facts about this ! Not only some genetic papers
and it seems that u don't know some sub-saharan african races ....
Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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Sampr
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samysamy25
Jan 15 2010, 10:43 PM
Nop ! Not for the first Homo-sapiens they aren't ,majority are so youngest according to their bantu neolithic expansion ... the anthroplogy confirm that they weren't the major or the ancient people of africa during the Paleoltihic and Holocene Era ....and I have facts about this ! Not only some genetic papers
and it seems that u don't know some sub-saharan african races ....
The Pygmies were the fisrt homo-sapiens(whom the Eurasian Adam is related to), then they are the ancestors of the Bantuid or modern Black Africans, Modern Europeans, Cro-Magnons, and Mongoloids)But what does it have to do to E3a(E1b1a} and E3b(E1b1b) being related?(as they are both descendants ofE1b1.
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four
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Sampr
Jan 15 2010, 10:55 PM
samysamy25
Jan 15 2010, 10:43 PM
Nop ! Not for the first Homo-sapiens they aren't ,majority are so youngest according to their bantu neolithic expansion ... the anthroplogy confirm that they weren't the major or the ancient people of africa during the Paleoltihic and Holocene Era ....and I have facts about this ! Not only some genetic papers
and it seems that u don't know some sub-saharan african races ....
The Pygmies were the fisrt homo-sapiens(whom the Eurasian Adam is related to), then they are the ancestors of the Bantuid or modern Black Africans, Modern Europeans, Cro-Magnons, and Mongoloids)But what does it have to do to E3a(E1b1a} and E3b(E1b1b) being related?(as they are both descendants ofE1b1.
Correct, and what this BRAIN DEAD ZOMBIE cannot understand is E1b1* - YES, the mutation that unites East and West Africans is found ONLY in sub Saharan Africa and as high as 18% in Ethiopia. The case is CLOSED!
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ShadowStriker
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The problem is that some individuals don't want to be related to anything black.


E1b1a is not a black marker africa is not neceserly BLACK OR NEGRO

Posted ImagePosted Image (Olympic-gold-medalist swimmer Anthony Ervin may be E1b1a because of his african american father)

Don't confuse phenotype with haplogroup

for example: Wentworth Miller, Vin Diesel, David Blaine, Derek Jeter, The Rock (Dwayne Johnson), Ryan Nece, Tim Howard, Rick Fox, Kevin Michael all of them don't look black but likely latino or mediterraneans by the way Berbers are mixed.

Posted Image (Kevin Michael) Posted Image (Wentworth Miller) Posted Image (Vin Diesel) Posted Image (Cory Bell) Posted Image (Derek Jeter)
Quote:
 
from where u get this Idea ?
by the way they are related but the bantuid/congoid marker have a North african origin and before this the Eurasid Paleo-asianid roots according to the recent genetic papers
their blackness is possibly a recent mutation and Evolution AKA the caucasians exist in africa before the bantuid presence No problem there


:lol:
Edited by ShadowStriker, Jan 16 2010, 11:09 AM.
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Sampr
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E1b1a is found in African American and in West Africa in great percentages, as E1b1b is found in East Africa also in great percentages, the founders of these markers were probably brothers who moved in different ways to establish their families(E1b1a to the west and E1b1b to the east respectively).
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Grasshoppa
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Sampr
Jan 15 2010, 10:37 PM
samysamy25
Jan 15 2010, 10:33 PM
there u have a problem ,what a blacks u meant ?
there is a several sub-saharan peoples wich are Not the same !!!! by the way this is another subject
but sorry they aren't the first neither the old !! at all :cool:
The Sub-Saharan Africans, who range from dark chocolate to reddish-brown, those black Africans, they are the first and more ancient modern human race to date.
Proof? You are using skin color to specify, which I don't think is very accurate, nor does it really specify who are the most "ancient" modern human population to date. I've read conflicting data regarding this. A couple things that I've read around the net:

1. Khoi-san and related groups are the most "ancient" group. Now, when they say they are the most ancient genetically, I am not sure that it means phenotypically as well.

2. I've read that the oldest "Caucasoid" skull was dated 30,000 kya and the oldest "Negroid" only 14,000 kya, which was a surprise to me.

3. Based on skull measurements, native Australians are the most similar to non-modern humans.

Of course, take into account that I currently have no proof of these, but I've read them on a couple of occasions.
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Sampr
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Grasshoppa
Jan 16 2010, 12:26 PM
Proof? You are using skin color to specify, which I don't think is very accurate, nor does it really specify who are the most "ancient" modern human population to date. I've read conflicting data regarding this. A couple things that I've read around the net:

1. Khoi-san and related groups are the most "ancient" group. Now, when they say they are the most ancient genetically, I am not sure that it means phenotypically as well.

2. I've read that the oldest "Caucasoid" skull was dated 30,000 kya and the oldest "Negroid" only 14,000 kya, which was a surprise to me.

3. Based on skull measurements, native Australians are the most similar to non-modern humans.

Of course, take into account that I currently have no proof of these, but I've read them on a couple of occasions.
Interesting info, grasshopa.
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Racial Reality
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Cut out the name-calling samysamy25 and four.

Berbers don't have a Sub-Saharan origin. They entered North Africa from the Middle East during the Neolithic:

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2005/03/north-african-y-chromosomes.html
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ShadowStriker
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Jan 16 2010, 01:34 PM
Cut out the name-calling samysamy25 and four.

Berbers don't have a Sub-Saharan origin. They entered North Africa from the Middle East during the Neolithic:

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2005/03/north-african-y-chromosomes.html
they aren't egyptians as told by Samysamy25 :lol:
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samysamy25
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Grasshoppa
Jan 16 2010, 12:26 PM


2. I've read that the oldest "Caucasoid" skull was dated 30,000 kya and the oldest "Negroid" only 14,000 kya, which was a surprise to me.
:rolleyes: from where u know that the first NEGROID skulls is only 14.000BC ?

Sampr
Jan 15 2010, 10:55 PM
samysamy25
Jan 15 2010, 10:43 PM
Nop ! Not for the first Homo-sapiens they aren't ,majority are so youngest according to their bantu neolithic expansion ... the anthroplogy confirm that they weren't the major or the ancient people of africa during the Paleoltihic and Holocene Era ....and I have facts about this ! Not only some genetic papers
and it seems that u don't know some sub-saharan african races ....
The Pygmies were the fisrt homo-sapiens(whom the Eurasian Adam is related to), then they are the ancestors of the Bantuid or modern Black Africans, Modern Europeans, Cro-Magnons, and Mongoloids)But what does it have to do to E3a(E1b1a} and E3b(E1b1b) being related?(as they are both descendants ofE1b1.
:err: NO COMMENT ...! but Plz read the subject okey !!! ur Proof...

Racial Reality
Jan 16 2010, 01:34 PM
Cut out the name-calling samysamy25 and four.

Berbers don't have a Sub-Saharan origin. They entered North Africa from the Middle East during the Neolithic:

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2005/03/north-african-y-chromosomes.html
the TMRCA of M81 is outdated far from the Paleolithic

M35-M78 323.01 generations 9690 yrs
M35-M123_all downstream snp’s 522.29 gen 15,668 yrs
M35-All downstream snp’s less M123 435.74 gen 13,072 yrs
M35-E1b1b1b2 (berberid)=E1b1b1b2-M183 386.80 gen 11,604 yrs the sub-Glade of M81 formelry M183
M35-V22 362.20 gen 10,882 yrs
M35-V12 322.2 9,666 yrs
M35-V65 307.6 9,228 yrs (berberid)
M35-V13 349.46 9,090 yrs

http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=1640.0


AKA ,we are awaiting for another ASD CALCULATOR !! ....
Edited by samysamy25, Jan 16 2010, 02:05 PM.
Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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Sampr
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samysamy25
Jan 16 2010, 01:43 PM
:err: NO COMMENT ...! but Plz read the subject okey !!! ur Proof...
Read the Genographic Project and Isogg for proof.
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four
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samysamy25
Jan 16 2010, 01:43 PM
Racial Reality
Jan 16 2010, 01:34 PM
Cut out the name-calling samysamy25 and four.

Berbers don't have a Sub-Saharan origin. They entered North Africa from the Middle East during the Neolithic:

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2005/03/north-african-y-chromosomes.html
the TMRCA of M81 is outdated far from the Paleolithic

M35-M78 323.01 generations 9690 yrs
M35-M123_all downstream snp’s 522.29 gen 15,668 yrs
M35-All downstream snp’s less M123 435.74 gen 13,072 yrs
M35-E1b1b1b2 (berberid)=E1b1b1b2-M183 386.80 gen 11,604 yrs the sub-Glade of M81 formelry M183
M35-V22 362.20 gen 10,882 yrs
M35-V12 322.2 9,666 yrs
M35-V65 307.6 9,228 yrs (berberid)
M35-V13 349.46 9,090 yrs

http://community.haplozone.net/index.php?topic=1640.0


AKA ,we are awaiting for another ASD CALCULATOR !! ....
That is information from a BLOG / Messagboard that is based on someone's calculation.
I am unsure how qualified that person is to make such calculations.

"My own Calculations for E-M81 come out to 4000 KYA"

In what way am I or the individual that you linked qualified to make calculations that OVERRIDE those done in PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH PAPERS?

Its ok to give that link as YOUR OPINION - It is not PROOF because it is not in the research papers NOR has it been peer reviewed. It is JUST AS VALID as my "4000 kya" calculation. Dont argue "Cruciani" then just disregard the calculation or TMCRA by Cruciani and others.

Racial Reality
Quote:
 
Berbers don't have a Sub-Saharan origin. They entered North Africa from the Middle East during the Neolithic:


Name calling cut. I am sure "Berbers" are not one monolithic group. I am not saying that "Berbers havea sub saharan origin" I am saying The Y-chomosome indicated as a "Berber Marker" (E-M81) is a one step muation from a Sub Saharan marker :E-M35*.

Unless "the Middle East" includes EGYPT then i am unsure what this study is getting at, but i DO note its age to be 2004. E-M81 has an origin in North Africa. Its parent clade E-M35 has an origin in East Africa. This study has NOT proposed that the Parent clade of E-M81 originated OUTSIDE of East Africa. Furthermore they state:
Quote:
 
Auto correlation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East


E-M81 is RARE to NON-EXISTENT in the Middle East [As noted by Keita]. The diversity of NORTH AFRICA, specifically North African "Berbers" starts with the Siwa in Egypt who have a HIGH affinity with Sub Saharan Africa:

Source

Quote:
 
-Siwan, with more than 50 % of sub-Saharan haplotypes are related to Semitic and Couchitic populations (owing to the caravans, as well as the slave market?)

-Genetic flow for L3e (13% in Siwanand3% in Beni Snassen): migration waves from the Horn of Africa.

-L4g, marker of East Africans, is only found in Siwa

-M1 17% atSiwa and 4% at Bouhria (Beni Snassen) and Asni (Rhiraya)

-Siwa Berbers have a similar frequency(6%) of this haplogroup, but other sub-Saharan haplogroups(e.g.B-M109 and E-V6) have been observed at high frequencies: about 60% on the whole (these haplogroups are very rare north of the Sahara)

-Relative high microsatellite diversity in Siwa Berbers suggests that their presence cannot be ascribed to recent bottleneck or recent founder effect.


E3* High Frequency and origin in Horn Of Africa
E3b* High Frequency and origin in horn of Africa
-These individuals migrate North. E-M81 comes in existence either in the Maghreb or in the Nile Valley.
Edited by four, Jan 19 2010, 09:56 PM.
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Charlie Bass
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Racial Reality
Jan 16 2010, 01:34 PM
Cut out the name-calling samysamy25 and four.

Berbers don't have a Sub-Saharan origin. They entered North Africa from the Middle East during the Neolithic:

http://racialreality.blogspot.com/2005/03/north-african-y-chromosomes.html
Blatantly false, you just don't read studies do you?
Y chromosone haplogroup: E3b1a7a-West African

mtDNA haplogroup: L4b2- East/Northeast African.
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Racial Reality
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The Arredi study clearly states:

[blockquote]"...the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East. [...] These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.

[...]

"Such a finding is not surprising, in the light of the earlier genetic studies, but has an important implication: despite haplogroups shared at low frequency, suggesting limited gene flow, North African populations have a genetic history largely distinct from both Europe and sub-Saharan Africa over the timescales needed for the Y-chromosomal differentiation to develop."
[/blockquote]
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four
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Racial Reality
Jan 20 2010, 02:18 PM
The Arredi study clearly states:

[blockquote]"...the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East. [...] These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.

[...]

"Such a finding is not surprising, in the light of the earlier genetic studies, but has an important implication: despite haplogroups shared at low frequency, suggesting limited gene flow, North African populations have a genetic history largely distinct from both Europe and sub-Saharan Africa over the timescales needed for the Y-chromosomal differentiation to develop."
[/blockquote]
You are correct, that is what the study states in their conclusion and body. THE DATA does not agree with their findings in my opinion. The known history and linguistics of the region also does not agree with their findings. Berber language does not have an origin in Asia nor has any linguist (that i know) made such a hypothesis. Also E3b* lineage is indicative of sub Saharan [East African] Ancestry. Whether these Sub Saharans come DIRECTLY from the Horn or went into the Levant FIRST is of no consequence. This is like arguing that Y-DNA K2 found in East Africa is NOT ASIAN as it came from Egypt.

They also quote Cruciani and Semino but have issues with the TMCRA :

Quote:
 
1. The current distributions of the haplogroups can suggest geographical origins, and their TMRCAs provide some constraints on the times of their spread. The M35 lineage (see the phylogeny in fig. 1A for marker locations) is thought to have arisen in East Africa, on the basis of its high frequency and diversity there (Cruciani et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004), and to have given rise to M81 in North Africa.
- Again, Whether these Sub Saharans come DIRECTLY from the Horn or went into the Levant at an early date is of no consequence. They study actually states this idea:

Quote:
 
2. Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate either a local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion back into Africa.


Sum it up with another quote:

Quote:
 
3. In addition, genetic evidence shows that E3b2 is rare in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2004), making the Arabs an unlikely source for this frequent North African lineage
So Arabs in the middle East carried J but "Arabs" didn't bring incoming E3b* lineages.......Africans, either from Sub Saharan East Africa or Africans living in the middle East migrated into North Africa bringing these lineages. In a nutshell, North Africa, like much of the African continent has ties with Sub Saharan East Africa, especially expressed via the Y-Chromosome.
Edited by four, Jan 20 2010, 06:15 PM.
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Charlie Bass
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The thing that refutes RR is that nowhere in the paper does the author state "Berbers" migrated from the Middle East, second, Egyptians also have E3b2-M81 just like Berbers, but its older and more diverse than the Berber E-M81, yet Egyptians[the ancients] didn't speak Berber. Recent data on the Y-chromosone for E3b shows that Berber E3b, M81 and also V-65 have a North African origin, all they have is haplogroup J to go off and there are no Berber speaking haplogroup J bearing populations in the Middle East that precede Berber speakers in North Africa, RR is just citing old studies and misrepresenting them.
Y chromosone haplogroup: E3b1a7a-West African

mtDNA haplogroup: L4b2- East/Northeast African.
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samysamy25
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what about E1b1a? and his North east african origins.......
U r OUT OF TOPIC...........
Arabs And East African Sub-Saharan Ancestory

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBzELv2mXVw[/youtube]
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four
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samysamy25
Jan 20 2010, 07:20 PM
what about E1b1a? and his North east african origins.......
U r OUT OF TOPIC...........
LOL, Maybe you are confusing E1b1a with E3B1a?
-E1b1a = West African E-M2
-E3b1a = North East African E-M78

Quote:
 
It has been hypothesized that E1b1a originated in Northern Africa and then spread to sub-Saharan Africa with the Bantu expansion.


Hypothesized by WHO? I have yet to read an published paper that hypothesizes this other than Shomarka Keita who claims Nile Valley Egypto-Sudanese Origin.

You are focusing on the WRONG part of your quotes. Under "Distribution" notice how you Bold the LEAST important part and ignore the MOST important : "The diversity and frequency increases as you move from East and North Africa to West and Southern Africa." High Diversity, rare and exclusive subclades, high frequency ALL COMBINED = ORIGIN.

Where are you pulling a NORTH East African origin for E-M2 from? Please source it.
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