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The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews
These chadic tribes in central Africa with high R1b can't be 100% SSA even if they appears to be so in Tishkoff's study. But there was also a chadic cluster that seemed to be linked with R1b1a in this area.

The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews
Cuban-Basque
Apr 25 2011, 06:14 AM
Flashrad
Apr 25 2011, 05:54 AM
Siwans can hardly be considered Berbers. Two-third of their Y-DNA lineages are Sub-saharan (if you count R1b1a V-88 and E1b1b1e as sub-saharan) and their mtDNA profile is completely different from that of Northwest Africans. Using uniparental markers estimation and including R1b1a and E1b1b1e, they appear to be 47% sub-saharan (still 30% if they are excleded).
I don't know much about Siwa Berbers, I do know, that according to that study that tested the 18 Autosomal Alus they seem to be 0.05% SSA Admixed. From what I have seen in Coudray et al(2009) the Siwa berbers have less SSA lineages(24.4%) than the Figuig(44.7%) and about the same of Asni(22.6%). According to Cruciani et al(2010) they have 26.9% R1b1a/R-V88 and its subclades, anyways, if they are from Northern Egypt, why should they be heavily admixed. Given their geographical situation, I doubt the presence of R1b1a in them means it came from Western Africa, in any case, they probably got R1b1a from when it entered Africa from the Middle East. Anyways, the argument wasn't about the Siwa Berbers, was about the user Oxy questioning the validity of the study done by Gonzalez-Perez et al(2010).

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They are 24% Sub-saharan in their mtDNA. That can be considered averge in North Africa. But did you see the Y-DNA? Ok, if R1b1a didn't get to Siwa from SSA, you still have more than 40% of SSA Y Haplogroups.
four
Apr 25 2011, 11:54 AM
Cuban-Basque
Apr 25 2011, 06:14 AM
Flashrad
Apr 25 2011, 05:54 AM
Siwans can hardly be considered Berbers. Two-third of their Y-DNA lineages are Sub-saharan (if you count R1b1a V-88 and E1b1b1e as sub-saharan) and their mtDNA profile is completely different from that of Northwest Africans. Using uniparental markers estimation and including R1b1a and E1b1b1e, they appear to be 47% sub-saharan (still 30% if they are excleded).
I don't know much about Siwa Berbers, I do know, that according to that study that tested the 18 Autosomal Alus they seem to be 0.05% SSA Admixed. From what I have seen in Coudray et al(2009) the Siwa berbers have less SSA lineages(24.4%) than the Figuig(44.7%) and about the same of Asni(22.6%). According to Cruciani et al(2010) they have 26.9% R1b1a/R-V88 and its subclades, anyways, if they are from Northern Egypt, why should they be heavily admixed. Given their geographical situation, I doubt the presence of R1b1a in them means it came from Western Africa, in any case, they probably got R1b1a from when it entered Africa from the Middle East. Anyways, the argument wasn't about the Siwa Berbers, was about the user Oxy questioning the validity of the study done by Gonzalez-Perez et al(2010).

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Siwa (genetically) are a far northern Extension of Nilotics or hybridized nilotic / Proto-Berbers.
Not only R1b1a but E1b1a, B2a1a and E-V6, as well as their Nilotic Mtdna (and phenotype) points this out.
Their R1b1a is probably central Sudanic. LOL at this study though, i would have to read the full text.
You are right about them being related to nilotics. They have many haplogroups that are totally absent in Northwest Africa.
Cuban-Basque
Apr 25 2011, 05:03 PM
four
Apr 25 2011, 11:54 AM
Siwa (genetically) are a far northern Extension of Nilotics or hybridized nilotic / Proto-Berbers.
Not only R1b1a but E1b1a, B2a1a and E-V6, as well as their Nilotic Mtdna (and phenotype) points this out.
Their R1b1a is probably central Sudanic. LOL at this study though, i would have to read the full text.
Let me see they speak Berber, carry a relatively low amount of SSA mt-DNA Hgs(24.4%), carry one of the highest amount of North African Berber mt-DNA Hgs(16.7%) according to Coudray et al(2009), and you want to claim them as having Nilotic mt-DNA. Their R1b1a is mostly R1b1a* or R-V88*, so in any case, they fit the putative entrance route of R-V88* to Africa from the Middle East according to Cruciani et al(2010), so saying things like probably, or LOL, really doesn't disprove anything. Just take a look at the distribution of R1b1a/R-V88 in Figure-3 of Cruciani et al(2010), and it becomes evident that there was indeed a expansion wave, but most likely from Egypt towards Central Africa, not the other way around. The Cameroon situation seems to be actually a founder's effect. So I don't think the R1b1a in Siwa is Central Sudanic, in any case, it would be the other way around. But the last word would be given by aDNA.

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I don't think you got it right man. The 16.7% of M1a isn't berber at all but East African. With their O% U6 and 1% H, you can't even say that they are related to the Berbers.

The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews
Cuban-Basque
Apr 24 2011, 03:22 AM
Oxy
Apr 24 2011, 03:00 AM
Most of the studies you are comparing these results to made use of completely different methods (few AIMs / Alus etc). One of your sources (using Alus) even states that Siwa Berbers only have 0.05% Sub-Saharan ancestry, which is quite laughable.
Well you are very quick to discard the studies that do not fit your ideals, while lauding the ones that do. Tell me why can't the Siwa Berbers be only 0.05% SubSaharan based on those 18 Autosomal Alus. Regardless the point to make was that Spain is not homogenous genetically, so to assume that those 136 Spaniards, who are coming from a study where almost half of the participants lacked the origin of the grandparents, are somehow representative of all of Spain is just bogus. As it was seen in Pino-Yanes et al.2011(Which did not include Spanish Basque)North African admixture, which is what they claim to be the source of SSA Admixture, is only 2.1% on average on Eastern Iberia. Anyways, here are my questions. Why do the authors list the French Basques as a NorthWestern European population, when it is very clear that they are SouthWestern? Why do they assume that those 136 Spaniards are representative of all of Spain?? How can they say that the putative European parental population for Southern Europeans would be CEU??

Siwans can hardly be considered Berbers. Two-third of their Y-DNA lineages are Sub-saharan (if you count R1b1a V-88 and E1b1b1e as sub-saharan) and their mtDNA profile is completely different from that of Northwest Africans. Using uniparental markers estimation and including R1b1a and E1b1b1e, they appear to be 47% sub-saharan (still 30% if they are excleded).

Where do light Berbers come from?
zeta
Apr 19 2011, 02:49 AM
Light Berbers came about when the slave raids were going on. White women were being captured and then sold to the harems or wealthy Berber/Beduoin men. Whole villages along the north Mediterranean, even to Germanic lands, up the coast to England, Caucasus and Balkan women were kidnapped. Sad but true.
:lol:

Where do light Berbers come from?
There is a certain amount of blondism in all mediterranean populations.

Armenoid, Arabid, Assyroid
Arabid nose vs armenid nose:
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Arabids are dolicocephalic while armenids are highly brachycephalic. Unlike arabid, armenid is not a sub-type of the mediterranean race.

Armenoid, Arabid, Assyroid
What are you talking about???
Armenoids are not linked to arabids, they are dinaricized irano-afghans.

Armenoid, Arabid, Assyroid
Arabid is mediterranean while assyrid and armenid are the same or almost. Arabids have straight noses.

Morocco and Argelia
The lightest people in Africa are the Riffians. They are much more light-skinned and have much more mixed or light eyes than Kabyles, though Kabyles are a bit more light haired.

All blue-eyed people can be traced back to one ancestor who lived 10,000 years a
I don't think all blue-eyed people have a common ancestor. Blue eyes probably independantly arose different times.
But if their was truly one common ancestor, then I think that he lived much more than 10,000 years ago.

North African Influences and Potential Bias in Iberian Populations
I don't think R1b1b2 is the first in North Africa. It might be E-M81. E-M81 isn't linked with Capsians because it is found at high frequencies in Morocco while Capsian was mainly in Eastern Northwest Africa. E-M78 and J1 are propbably linked with Capsians.

For La Gomera, it is possible that some isolated places on the interior island were mainly U6 while coastal areas were a mix of various caucasoid and negroid lineages.

U5 is the first mtDNA lineage in Europe.

North African Influences and Potential Bias in Iberian Populations
93 AIMs means nearly nothing to indicate admixture proportions in a population but is useful to confirm the presence of admixture.

Is the 50% U6 found in Gomeros due to genetic drift? I don't think U6 could have been so high among Aborigines though it's not impossible. I believe U6 is linked with E-M81 and that both of them are the autochtonous lineages of Northwest Africa. Maybe some ancient isolated Gomeros were as high as 50% U6 due to low influence from incoming Europeans (12,000 years ago) and Middle Easterns (10,000 years ago)? I believe that before European from the franco-cantabrian refugium (if the theory is true), North Africans were mainly U6 ,even more than the Mozabites, just like european hunter-gatherers were as high as 50-60% U5.