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Mel Lisboa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Lisboa

Her surnames "Lisboa Alves" are Portuguese. She is however from Porto Alegre so you can´t rule out Italian or German ancestry completely.

From wiki:
Porto Alegre was founded in 1742 by immigrants from the Azores, Portugal. In the late 19th century the city received many immigrants from other parts of the world, particularly Germany, Italy, and Poland. The vast majority of the population is of European descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto_Alegre

How would you classify me, my parents and my brother?
Portuguese or Greek

Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
do you mindd
Aug 3 2010, 07:30 PM
That's what I was saying. All 3 groups are 'mixed' to some degree just in very different proportions. I wasn't trying to say they're all the same, that'd be ridiculous of me.

Another comparison would be comparing Azoreans and Madeirans to white United States southerners - white, but if you shake your family tree hard enough, you may find some mixture. Now do we see eye to eye? :biggrin:



I agree that all 3 groups are "mixed" to a degree but in very different proportions. Anyway, Azoreans and Madeirans are 10000000000 times closer to mainland Portuguese than they are to those Anglo rednecks who are all 1/16 Cherokee nowadays. :lol:

Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
do you mindd
Aug 3 2010, 07:07 PM
I wouldn't say that I have an agenda but I tend to want to bridge the gap between Cape Verdeans and the other people mentioned. Probably because from my experience there are quite a few people from Fogo and Brava that do not look substantially different, and to say they do is like splitting hairs. I also wish to dispel the idea that all Cape Verdeans are black, as in, predominantly African-descended.

I feel some wish to white-wash Azoreans and Madeirans and blacken Cape Verdeans but to me, there are commonalities. None of the 3 groups are monoracial people.
Ok. I understand what you say. You know progressive intellectuals of Cape Verde always looked towards their African side while the small white and light skinned mulatto elite of Cape Verde always sought close ties with Portuguese colonialism. Trying to tie Cape Verde with the Salazar era colonialist idea of "multiracial Portugueseness" is a more reactionary idea than you may imagine. Anyway, I think we can agree that Azores and Madeira have a predominantly Caucasian population while Cape Verde is predominantly sub-saharan.

São Miguel - Azores:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N6avcs9FMI[/youtube]

Madeira:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLOcq7EbR_E[/youtube]

Fogo - Cape Verde:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB2ZLuP2ZA4[/youtube]

Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
Without going into too much detail, and with all humility as someone who lives in Portugal, speaks Portuguese and has a good deal of familiarity with the people and culture of Portugal I would say the following: In Portugal Cape Verdeans are considered a foreign nationality while Madeirans and Azoreans are not. Many prominent personages, including leading bankers, businessmen and the speaker of the Parliament in Portugal are of Madeiran and Azorean origin and the tendency is to regard these regions as provinces of Portugal. As well, the people of the Azores and Madeira on the one hand do look quite different from people from Brava or Fogo. Without wanting to antagonize you I would suggest that you may have an "agenda" yourself. I am mainland Portuguese and I have never denied that some Portuguese people look ambiguous. :D


Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
do you mindd
Aug 3 2010, 06:36 PM
My other issue with Azoreans (the ones I've talked to online) is that they think they can be mixed with Flemish, Dutch, and French and still call themselves pure Portuguese, yet they condemn Cape Verdeans and Madeirans for their higher African mixture (especially Cape Verdeans) and say it makes them impure and (as one person said on another site) a "non-native". :shakehead: Not to sound like I am condemning all Azoreans but I feel as if many of them have a superiority complex, and in some cases, denial. Being Madeiran and Cape Verdean myself, I take offense to this assertion.

Also for the record the darker look of southern Portugal still does not explain the racially ambiguous look I was describing. Southern Portuguese look more like Italians, not like quadroons.
There is more African dna in southern Portugal than in the Azores. I live in Portugal, have a Portuguese passport, am a mainland Portuguese and have no particular reason to de-Africanize the Azores. :lol: I can understand why some Cape Verdeans in New England may feel hurt by the racist attitudes of other Portuguese, particularly Azoreans. The better educated people tend not to have narrow-minded attitudes. Here in Portugal Azoreans tend to love Madeirans more than mainland Portuguese. Both Azores and Madeira tend to be more conservative and narrow-minded people than mainland Portuguese, especially those from the larger cities.

Cape Verdeans have gained a bad reputation in mainland Portugal, especially in the Lisbon area because of immigration although the people from Lisbon discriminate against Cape Verdeans and everybody else. Lisbon has a superiority complex and they regard the rest of Portugal as a bunch of hicks. I have met a couple of Cape Verdeans who live in the Azores and they say that as sober, hard-working people they are respected by the local community there while in Lisbon they are regarded as just another "preto".

Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
do you mindd
Aug 3 2010, 06:25 PM
PortuguesePoster
Aug 3 2010, 06:18 PM
do you mindd
Aug 3 2010, 06:01 PM
In terms of the Portuguese being white or not, I've found mainland Portuguese are generally indistinguishable from other Western Europeans, while a minority of Azoreans and Madeirans show slight African mixture that gives them almost a Hispanic or Cape Verdean look, rather than unambiguously white. Most look like the people from the mainland though, but I've found from personal experience never to TELL an Azorean or Madeiran they look mixed with black.. doesn't go over well even if it's probably true. Especially Azoreans, even the most ambiguous-looking ones will insist they are pure white. :err: I once heard this woman from the Azores talking rudely about Cape Verdeans who identify as Portuguese, saying they're a disgrace and I said "funny you're saying that since you look exactly like one!"


Most of the Brazilians here just identify as Brazilian, although a number of them are seen as black by others and kind of forced into identifying as black, while some of the whiter ones blend in and no one thinks they're anything but white American. I always thought it was funny though when they blame the Portuguese for the state of their country today.. as if they aren't partially their descendants. Besides the people in Portugal today are not the descendants of such people, today's Brazilians are.
Well, Azoreans are the oldest Portuguese group established in the US and past discrimination may have created a tendency towards hypersensitivity to this sort of association. Madeirans in South Africa are also known for having more racist attitudes towards blacks than the mainland Portuguese in that country. A part of this is because they have been established in that country for a longer period (over 100 years) having absorbed the local racial attitudes to a greater degree and also because they were subject to a greater degree of bigotry in South Africa during an earlier period.

Regarding the Brazilians its true. I have to say that some of the biggest assholes and most dishonest underhanded people I have ever had to deal with have been of the Brazilian persuation.
Do you agree with my assertion that some Azoreans and Madeirans do look more racially ambiguous than mainland Portuguese? I think that what you said could very well be true (the reasons they might be prejudiced) but it's just funny to watch a racially-ambiguous Azorean for instance putting down Cape Verdeans for being black and identifying as Portuguese, meanwhile the person saying this has "nappy" hair and a brown undertone to their skin. Granted I don't think the majority of island Portuguese look like this but maybe 1/8 or so of them that I've seen, do. The more racially ambiguous ones also tend to be the most prejudiced from my experience, maybe because they feel they have something to prove.

Many of the Brazilians here are on welfare, and expect handouts and special treatment.
Yeah, some Madeirans and Azoreans look racially ambiguous. 90% of the mainland Portuguese in the USA are from northern half of Portugal so you are probably less aware of the dark types who are somewhat common in southern Portugal (Lisbon, Alentejo, Algarve). Groups who have been discriminated in the past tend to develop these kinds of hostile and racist attitudes. Furthermore if an individual looks a bit on the dark side he may also develop these atitudes out of resentment.

Azoreans look like the people in this video :D :
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvBNyy2rA6w[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJDtMtlIfe8[/youtube]

Then again, its Azoreans from Canada so you can´t guarantee some of them are not intermarried with people of other nationalities or origins.



Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
do you mindd
Aug 3 2010, 06:01 PM
In terms of the Portuguese being white or not, I've found mainland Portuguese are generally indistinguishable from other Western Europeans, while a minority of Azoreans and Madeirans show slight African mixture that gives them almost a Hispanic or Cape Verdean look, rather than unambiguously white. Most look like the people from the mainland though, but I've found from personal experience never to TELL an Azorean or Madeiran they look mixed with black.. doesn't go over well even if it's probably true. Especially Azoreans, even the most ambiguous-looking ones will insist they are pure white. :err: I once heard this woman from the Azores talking rudely about Cape Verdeans who identify as Portuguese, saying they're a disgrace and I said "funny you're saying that since you look exactly like one!"


Most of the Brazilians here just identify as Brazilian, although a number of them are seen as black by others and kind of forced into identifying as black, while some of the whiter ones blend in and no one thinks they're anything but white American. I always thought it was funny though when they blame the Portuguese for the state of their country today.. as if they aren't partially their descendants. Besides the people in Portugal today are not the descendants of such people, today's Brazilians are.
Well, Azoreans are the oldest Portuguese group established in the US and past discrimination may have created a tendency towards hypersensitivity to this sort of association. Madeirans in South Africa are also known for having more racist attitudes towards blacks than the mainland Portuguese in that country. A part of this is because they have been established in that country for a longer period (over 100 years) having absorbed the local racial attitudes to a greater degree and also because they were subject to a greater degree of bigotry in South Africa during an earlier period.

Regarding the Brazilians its true. I have to say that some of the biggest assholes and most dishonest underhanded people I have ever had to deal with have been of the Brazilian persuation.

Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
do you mindd
Aug 3 2010, 04:43 PM
PortuguesePoster
Aug 3 2010, 01:32 PM
RYOUTA
Aug 3 2010, 01:24 PM
Watching a documentary the another about race mixing and they do all they testing in Brazil coz hardly anyone is 'pure' there!
Brazilians are the most mixed country in the world and the people who are the biggest assholes in relation to the Portuguese on the internet are Brazilians, often pretending to be something else. Many Brazilians on the internet seem to have a gigantic inferiority complex and take it out on Portugal instead of taking responsibility for their own problems. Others who are like average Brazilian mulattoes with 1/4 German/Italian/Polish/etc. ancestry pretend to be German/Italian/Polish/etc. because their inferiority complex tells them to claim these nationalities online and cover over their perceived inferior Brazilian status. Some Portuguese on the internet can also be assholes but Brazilians are, on average, like 10 times worse.
Around here it's the other way around - all of the Brazilians I know will say they ARE Portuguese, regardless of how mixed they look. I've never noticed anything to suggest they dislike them - usually it's Portuguese Americans around here who don't want to identify with the Brazilians and see their communities merge. It annoys me, to say the least... it may be in their ancestry but by and large the Brazilians I see are mixed enough that it should be evident to them that they are mixed, which so many of them deny.

One of the women I used to work with, was born in this country to two Brazilian parents and she identified as black. Not Brazilian, not Portuguese, not mixed, just "black". I found this interesting.
It must vary depending on where you are. If you go on youtube and look at the comments section of some videos you can find some of the nastiest exchanges between Portuguese and Brazilians. Portuguese have been historically the butt of jokes in Brazil and preceived as hicks or very unsophisticated hairy people who smell like cod fish, own small bakeries or grocery stores and as being inferior to other groups who settled in Brazil. Furthermore the more educated elite segment of Brazil has often blamed "Portuguese colonization" for all of Brazil´s problems, disregarding the fact that the linear decendants of the "inept Portuguese colonists" are the Brazilian elite and not the people who stayed in Portugal. Until about 15 years ago Portuguese in Portugal generally had a favourable opinion of Brazilians as this was the largest Portuguese-speaking country and a country with a higher profile on the world scene than Portugal, good music and soap operas, etc. With significant immigration of Brazilians to Portugal in the last 15 years their image has changed quite a bit. Brazilians are nowadays perceived as prostitutes, criminals, con artists, vandals of public property and people who blast loud samba music until 4 am when everyone else in the building wants to sleep. Furthermore there have been several high-profile violent crimes in recent years commited by Brazilians including gunning down gas station attendants to steal 100€ from the cash register.

Regarding what happens in your part of the USA the Brazilians probably need a group to identify with since they are not really white (at least most of them), not really black (even the blackest Brazilians have a very different culture to Afro-Americans) and don´t speak Spanish.
Delilah
Aug 3 2010, 05:30 PM
do you mind, I think you really put it very well with your statement "if you are used to seeing people who are somewhat mixed referred to as white and you are of a similar background, you'll see yourself as white."

How do I identify? I identify as Hispanic in the USA which we all know means "mixed' in the USA. Back in Puerto Rico I am white, LOL. So in Puerto Rico I experienced no racism. Of course there is prejudice over there as well especially towards those who have more African ancestry. But really racial categories don't mean that much to me anymore. As I said in another thread its really not that important.
The same thing happens in Portugal. Most of the native population of Portugal self-identifies as "white" while many of them would be considered "not really white", "off-white" or "almost-white" in northern Europe, North America, Australia, etc. In some countries Portuguese is regarded as an ambiguous, grey area, "not really white" nationality because of the low socio-economic status of many of the local Portuguese.

Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
RYOUTA
Aug 3 2010, 01:24 PM
Watching a documentary the another about race mixing and they do all they testing in Brazil coz hardly anyone is 'pure' there!
Brazilians are the most mixed country in the world and the people who are the biggest assholes in relation to the Portuguese on the internet are Brazilians, often pretending to be something else. Many Brazilians on the internet seem to have a gigantic inferiority complex and take it out on Portugal instead of taking responsibility for their own problems. Others who are like average Brazilian mulattoes with 1/4 German/Italian/Polish/etc. ancestry pretend to be German/Italian/Polish/etc. because their inferiority complex tells them to claim these nationalities online and cover over their perceived inferior Brazilian status. Some Portuguese on the internet can also be assholes but Brazilians are, on average, like 10 times worse.

Maria Ribeiro; Brazilian actress
ricaupar
Aug 3 2010, 08:17 AM
Aren't a lot of Brazilians supposed to be descendants of Sephardic Jews from Portugal......
Brazil did attract a disproportional number of New Christians during its colonization because the Inquisition was less rigorous there than in Portugal and in such a vast territory reversion to Jewish practices would be less conspicuous. Many Brazilian soap actresses with Portuguese surnames do have that characteristicly Jewish look to them.