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Class's Thing?; Peoples thoughts?
Topic Started: Jun 17 2008, 12:09 AM (2,370 Views)
Mango
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Eternity
Jun 18 2008, 09:31 PM
And if this gets implemented, everyone will see how effective and powerful the mage class will be, so we will have mass resets and a bunch of harming newbs running around KF with no fighters to be seen. :p
Indeed, I already started a mage newby. All you need to do is take magic god. And spam magic lol.
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Tirun

You guys are all full of crap. I posted a perfectly acceptable mage build by attributes and no one even bothered to reply. It made MI breaking take massive amounts of pick points and then with the right formula still not be reliable. It had only a minor effect on PKers because the attributes they get most would be the ones used for restoration, harm and mana drain. If mana drain is more important than harm to PKers then the formulas for mana drain and harm could be switched.

My idea didn't change the game and was not hard to implement but required anyone who wanted to be a full blown powerhouse mage to work just as hard as the guys who worked their asses off to be full blown powerhouse PKers. The system I suggested could be tweaked to leave PK almost exactly the way it is but give people who worked their asses off a chance to compete in PK with magic. It takes more pick points to be a power house mage in my system because magic can be trained without any risk at all to yourself.

Are some PK accounts trained entirely in guild maps? I have no idea. All I can tell you is that I offered a system that would work to give us a mage class and not a single person gave even one try at suggestion a single tweak to make it work for them. If you guys really want things to change then start trying constructive criticisms instead of just pissing on every idea that comes along without bothering to suggest changes.

Tirun
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JaminCollins

From Tirun's Post

Quote:
 
Anyone who says the game doesn't need any more changes shouldn't be allowed to post in suggestion threads.

Is their opinion somehow worth less because they like the game as it is?

Quote:
 
Anyone who says ideas allow people with RL money to have too much of an advantage should not be allowed to post in suggestion threads.

Should someone with money be allowed to buy anything in the game? If so, why not just cut out the middle man and give the money directly to Radu for any increase or item in game?

Quote:
 
This game is BETA and it will change. Get over it. Entropy will make money on the game. Get over it.

This is not the same as the two above statements.


Quote:
 
Everyone who says this idea will do this or that needs to STFU. If you don't like the idea the way it was written then say, "The only way this idea will work is if you 'your idea on fixing it." That way Entropy does not have a reason to get pissed off and kill ideas.

Should every idea that Entropy comes up with be added? Hell no. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, comes up with idiotic ideas from time to time. When they do, they need someone willing to tell them it's an idiotic idea. It just so happens that Entropy tends to go off when told his ideas aren't the best thing in the world.


Quote:
 
EL needs to be more complex and more complicated to give more players options to do things that will change their experience and keep them playing longer and be positive about the game.

EL has some fundamental flaws that need to be resolved. Sure the game needs new features and new complexities, but the existing flaws are creating more and more problems going forward, and having more and more kludges added to deal with them.

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The more strategy and the more choices in game the more personalized you can make your style of play. Anyone who is against a more personalized style of play and more choices for players just needs to quit now.

Being against Entropy's latest idea doesn't translate to the above.

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I am always afraid I will make some kind of mistake posting and it will be my last because it got me banned but I post anyway because I care enough about the game to risk it. Perhaps my fears are unjustified but they exist because bans usually come without warnings.

Not everyone is willing to face the potential for a ban in order to voice their opinion and try to make the game better or prevent a bad idea from being added.
--
Blackthorne in EL
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Cruella

Tirun
Jun 19 2008, 12:35 PM
You guys are all full of crap. I posted a perfectly acceptable mage build by attributes and no one even bothered to reply.
That's because you need to work on your communication skills Tirun.

I do not know you, I have never talked to you in game, you have never done anything wrong to me, yet some of your posts immediately raise my blood pressure, not because of their content and essence but due to their form, wording and attitude of a poster.

Don't get me wrong, this is just friendly advice to you, not any form of personal attack. I think you have some good ideas and it is a shame that they are presented in a form that discourages others from reading, discussing, replying ....

On topic now - for a relatively new person to EL I am, it seems to me that a small group of players is doing whatever they can to keep status quo.

We have bought our nexuses already, so let's remove nexus NPC since it gives others possibility to develop chars as far as we did

We have perfect builds for the current fighting system, so no n00b can easily reach our levels, therefore any change that would make it easier for n00bs sucks

We can't be arsed with making gc's, harvesting, mining, alching, we should be getting supplies for free, otherwise pk will die

etc. etc. etc.

I cannot help this, that's how I see that when reading official forum suggestions threads

I respect rights of EL "veterans" to ask for the things to remain unchanged, on the other hand, without a "fresh blood" this game will stagnate, and as Tirun said this game is still BETA so sabotaging nearly any new idea for a sake of old sentiments is making the game a huge disservice


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Dilly
D34DLY
\o/ for Cruella!
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Korrode
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LNX Warlord
Cruella
Jun 19 2008, 01:16 PM
On topic now - for a relatively new person to EL I am, it seems to me that a small group of players is doing whatever they can to keep status quo.

We have bought our nexuses already, so let's remove nexus NPC since it gives others possibility to develop chars as far as we did

We have perfect builds for the current fighting system, so no n00b can easily reach our levels, therefore any change that would make it easier for n00bs sucks

We can't be arsed with making gc's, harvesting, mining, alching, we should be getting supplies for free, otherwise pk will die

etc. etc. etc.
I can only assume none of that is directed at me.

I've suggested so many changes for EL it's not funny.

I have bought no nexuses/pickpoints.

I often advise others on how to build their char to be strong in PK, and have been for most 'playing field leveling' ideas.

I certainly never asked for any free supplies.
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
"I'm a people person... who drinks."
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Cruella

Korrode
Jun 19 2008, 01:44 PM
I can only assume none of that is directed at me.
Do not asume, be sure it is not.

As well as it is not directed at any specific person

It is a collective description of a certain mindset
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Mango
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Directed to me?
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Cruella

Cruella
Jun 19 2008, 01:58 PM
It is a collective description of a certain mindset
as above, I hope no single player fits the description ;)
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Mango
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So, at who was it directed then?
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Korrode
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LNX Warlord
You know i can actually think of at least a couple of people whos mindsets are in line with at least 2 of your points, but, these people are not "doing whatever they can to keep status quo.", they're infact usually completely silent on these kind of subjects... no doubt sitting back thinking to themselves "ahhhh Ent will never do anything to screw my char build or my ability to buy nexuses, cause i've generated too much moneyz for him :) "

And from what i can tell, they're right.
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
"I'm a people person... who drinks."
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Mango
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At current rate, I bet next year someone has full p/c/w/r/v/i.

Is this right topic?
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Cruella

Mango
Jun 19 2008, 02:15 PM
So, at who was it directed then?
either my English is so bad that you do not understand .... or yours

if it is the first case, I'm sorry

if it is the second, I'm sorry even more :p

Quote:
 
We have bought our nexuses already, so let's remove nexus NPC since it gives others possibility to develop chars as far as we did

We have perfect builds for the current fighting system, so no n00b can easily reach our levels, therefore any change that would make it easier for n00bs sucks

We can't be arsed with making gc's, harvesting, mining, alching, we should be getting supplies for free, otherwise pk will die


This is directed at people who sabotage every change without providing any reasoning other than "things are fine now, why to change them" or "that will ruin the game/pk". It pointing at attitude, not a particular person / poster
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Korrode
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LNX Warlord
Mango
Jun 19 2008, 02:23 PM
Is this right topic?
The topics seem to be draining into each other, lol
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
"I'm a people person... who drinks."
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Cruella

Responding to your fears, thhe only solution would be a hard cap on everything - stats, skills, nexuses, all set low.

In such case, you and everyone else would reach a cap fast and easy, and from then onwards the game would entirely rely on your skills.

Or better yet, when starting EL you should be presented with a choice o 2 pre-made chars with fixed skills/stats

Then the game would be fair and noone would have any advantage other that comes from his personal skills and abilities

The question is - would you play such a game?
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JaminCollins

Cruella
Jun 19 2008, 02:29 PM
Responding to your fears, thhe only solution would be a hard cap on everything - stats, skills, nexuses, all set low.

In such case, you and everyone else would reach a cap fast and easy, and from then onwards the game would entirely rely on your skills.

Or better yet, when starting EL you should be presented with a choice o 2 pre-made chars with fixed skills/stats

Then the game would be fair and noone would have any advantage other that comes from his personal skills and abilities

The question is - would you play such a game?
There is another option.

Looking at it from an economic perspective, for the economy to work there must be scarcity. Applying this to the game there are several places that there really isn't any scarcity and the game suffers for that. You can harvest as much of any resource as your time and carry capacity will allow. Some would call this scarcity, but as it allows for much more of each item than is really needed (100k+ flower sales anyone?) it is effectively non-scarce.

How does this apply to the PP/classes discussion? I'm getting there.

Prior to hydro nexuses and removal stones, PP were in fact a very finite resource (only one in the game that I can think of), maximum of 178 per player as I recall (though no one I know ever reached that point). With the advent of these two additions, the finite limit has been removed. And now there is talk of players being able to max out their attributes (288 PP) something that would simply not have been possible without the nexus NPC and stones.

The solution lies in what this game has removed, scarcity. It needs to be applied to all things. EL has had a problem with it for quite some time.
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Blackthorne in EL
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Korrode
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LNX Warlord
Perfectly said BT.

(Related info - my post minutes ago in the other thread:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Unofficial_EL_Forums/single/?p=23487&t=362502 )

The requirement for strategic use of limited resources must be maintained.
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
"I'm a people person... who drinks."
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Mango
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Exactly, Jamin understands it very well.

I couldn't explain it like he did.
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JaminCollins

Korrode
Jun 19 2008, 02:57 PM
Perfectly said BT.

(Related info - my post minutes ago in the other thread:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Unofficial_EL_Forums/single/?p=23487&t=362502 )

The requirement for strategic use of limited resources must be maintained.
It goes beyond just PP though. It needs to be widespread throughout the entire game system. As it stands now, any player can make anyone one item over and over again and continually make the same (or via increasing rationality, more) experience indefinitely. As a result only a select few items ever really get made or done. Repetition should lead to diminishing returns, thus scarcity. Resources should deplete (and at some rate replenish), thus scarcity. NPCs should not buy an infinite amount of any good, thus scarcity.

And before someone says "if you don't like how it is leave" or "if you think you can do better, make your own game". I'm a step ahead of you on both counts.
Edited by JaminCollins, Jun 19 2008, 03:18 PM.
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Blackthorne in EL
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TempesT

wait wait, jamincollins = blackthorne? xD
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