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An essay on EL's combat training system; Fluffys, Feros and Chims
Topic Started: May 21 2008, 03:44 PM (1,073 Views)
Korrode
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LNX Warlord
Seems so many people don't seem to understand why exactly it is i've been trying to get both the re-spawn time and armor/toughness of the f/m.chims decreased, and why just doing one of these things will never be enough.

I doubt anyone anywhere could be bothered reading it, but just in case some people do find it enlightening, i thought i'd post this here, use u lot (and the MANY people who read these forums but dont have an account) as a test case :P

If you don't have an account on here and feel like making any kind of comment, feel free to PM me in-game.

Quote:
 
I'm writing this essay in an attempt to ensure everyone understands why certain monsters are used more than others for training, and why adjusting the stats of certain creatures could have a very positive effect on EL.

Hitting a monster, gaining attack experience
To gain attack experience from a monster, your character must be capable of performing 2 separate actions... it's a common misconception that there is not two actions, only one; this is not the case.
Here are the two requirements for making a successful attack roll, gaining exp:

A. You must hit the monster
Whether or not you will hit the monster is determined by a calculation of your Attack, Dexterity and Accuracy VS the monster's Defense and Reaction (and possibly the armor (#arm) Defense modifier, which i prefer to call 'Evasion').

B. You must damage the monster
Simply being able to hit the monster is not enough. The amount of damage you will inflict is determined by your Might and the damage rating of your weapon VS the monsters Toughness and Armor (if any). You could have 120 attack and 48 reasoning, but if your p/c was 4/4 you would very rarely do damage to a Cyclops (perhaps never), thus very rarely getting any attack exp from it.

To obtain the most efficient training setup, you want to hit and do damage every attack roll (or at least most rolls), but, you want to do the minimum damage possible. The most consistent way to gain experience in EL is to "spawn camp", when you kill the monster you will have to wait for it to re-spawn before you can gain exp again, thus you want to keep your fight going for as long as possible, hence the desire to do minimum damage per hit.

If it was possible to set your character up to do 1 damage everytime you hit your monster, it would result in the most attack experience per hour, but, it is impossible to set your character up to always to 1 damage. In EL, even when you do not have a weapon equipped, there still is a damage range.

A logical conclusion to optimise your training, if do not have enough Might to consistently damage your monster, would be to equip a weapon that inflicts appropriate damage. There are 2 problems with this:

A. All weapons in EL that would seem suitable for training have a damage range, increasing the range of damage you do reduces optimization, as described earlier.

B. Although i cannot be sure of the exact mathematical reasons for this, through testing it is 100% confirmed that the increase in damage you inflict when you score a critical-to-damage roll with a weapon equipped is much higher than when you simply have 'enough' Might and are fighting barefist.

Point B. is really the major issue, it significantly lowers your exp gain consistency. Using a weapon for long term single spawn training has been tried and tried again and is always deemed too inefficient and inconsistent.


Hopefully now you can see that the most optimum setup to gain attack exp from any creature is to get your Might just high enough so you can barefist fight them, score most hits, but do minimum damage with each of those hits (usually no more than 10 damage on non-critical attack rolls).

Considering this, 2 factors dictate the attack exp gain potential of any creature:

A. The creatures Matter (health points).

B. The creatures re-spawn time.

In EL, due to an attribute cap, you cannot ever have over 48 Might. Any creature in-game that's Toughness/Armor is so high that it cannot be damaged (or even consistently damaged) barefist will never be efficient for training on a single spawn, unless it has a re-spawn time significantly shorter than similar level monsters that can be effectively damaged with <48 Might.

The 2 above factors can easily make a 100/100 a/d creature give less attack exp per hour than a 95/95/ a/d creature, single spawn.
I'll now present an example of this, it is just an example, and the figures dont necessarily reflect the exact figures of the creatures in EL:

Monster A. - The Fluffy Rabbit
Health: 250
Re-spawn time: 25 seconds
a/d: 95/95

Monster B. - The Desert Chimeran Wolf
Health: 250
Re-spawn time: 45 seconds
a/d: 100/100

Both these creatures can be effectively hit with 48 Might or less, and we will base our examples on trainers with 'perfect' Might for each creature.
Now the math for exp per hour:
The overall average damage of your hits, for optimum attack exp, will be around 7 damage.
The average length of the fight for both creatures will be the same, as they both have 250 health, and are both receiving an average of 7 damage per hit. 35 successful attack rounds per fight. Lets say 1m35s per fight.
To keep things easy we will assume our test subjects are godless with 4 rat, and the exact same levels as the monsters. So 96 exp per hit for the fluffy trainer and 101 exp per hit for the d.chim trainer.

Fluffy:
96 x 35 = 3360 exp
Fight time (1m35s) + re-spawn(25s) time = 2m
60 / 2 = 30 fights per hour.
30 x 3360 exp = 100800 exp per hour

D.chim:
101 x 35 = 3535 exp
Fight time (1m35s) + re-spawn(45s) time = 2m20s
60 / 2.333 = 25.7 fights per hour.
25.7 x 3535 exp = 90850 exp per hour


The end result; our 95/95 a/d monster, due to a shorter re-spawn time, gives almost 10,000 more attack experience per hour than our 100/100 a/d monster.
The numbers used in the above example are at least close to what is in place in EL right now.
I cannot see the logic in making a higher level monster give less experience per hour.

The Forest and Mountain Chimeran Wolves, at the time of writing, cannot be effectively hit with 48 Might, and have re-spawn times much longer than that of the popular Fluffy and Feros.

I hope this essay has enlightened any who may read it to the fact that until these two issues are addressed, the Mountain and Forest Chimerans will never become a regular step in each players training cycle, and also that the Desert Chimeran will never be popular for single spawn training.


Well, thats an hour of my life i'll never get back...

..but if Ent ever again asks why chims aren't used much in training, you'll know why.
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
"I'm a people person... who drinks."
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Shujral
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oldsk00l unoffic member
very interesting, thanks.
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St_Arcane
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YARR
Another reason nobody uses Willowvine is because the spawns suck (easy to lose chims) and the map is HUGE so if you lose your chim or want to start training, it takes ages to track one down to a certain spawn.

As for the rest, I agree 100%, although its not all that bad, I went from 103 to 116 def in about 8-10 weeks of training (and it was like 2-3 hours a day) in Bethel because almost no1 else was training there. :P
Edited by St_Arcane, May 22 2008, 11:59 AM.
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Korrode
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WV chims really that easy to lose St_A?
I dont imagine they'd be any worse than the western (forest) feros spawn in NRM ...and thats fine to train on imo... even ok at night since my perception's been... reasonable ;)

Yeah Bethel d.chims are ok, before attrib cap i trained there too, but it'd be nice (and sensical) if single d.chim spawns gave at least the same exp as a single fluffy spawn...
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
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St_Arcane
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YARR
Havnt really tried since cap, so I guess it could be better now. Still, I think they are less visible than feros/fluff, and the spawns I found had a very wide area, and at most only 1 wall to contain them.
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Cazuza
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Two arguments I have seen repeatedly on the official EL forums are:

1. Too many fighters spend their time training on monsters, therefore they do not spend enough time in PK...
2. High level monsters are untrainable due to their current stats and respawn time, we want them to be redesigned so high level fighters can train and advance their skills further...

Both of these arguments have been made by PKers and are inconsistent. You want people to stop training so much and PK...yet you want better high level monster spawns to train on...?

Entropy responded to your suggestion with:
Quote:
 
If I did what you suggest, then people would PK even less, and PvE even more.


IMO high level monsters (DCW+) were purposely designed by radu to deter trainers from training any further in an attempt to draw strong fighters (fluffy level) to PK. Just my thoughts - and nice essay Korrode, I think your arguments on the forums have been reasonable, I just don't understand what PKers really want...
Edited by Cazuza, May 23 2008, 09:21 AM.
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St_Arcane
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YARR
Cazuza
May 23 2008, 09:20 AM
Both of these arguments have been made by PKers and are inconsistent. You want people to stop training so much and PK...yet you want better high level monster spawns to train on...?

Entropy responded to your suggestion with:
Quote:
 
If I did what you suggest, then people would PK even less, and PvE even more.


IMO high level monsters (DCW+) were purposely designed by radu to deter trainers from training any further in an attempt to draw strong fighters (fluffy level) to PK. Just my thoughts - and nice essay Korrode, I think your arguments on the forums have been reasonable, I just don't understand what PKers really want...
Doesn't work that way. Even if all we had to train on was beavers, everyone would still be training, it'll just be more boring/crowded. And no, Radu complained before that people train fluff/feros, skip the chim wolves and go straight to yeti, so he didnt design them to deter people training them (I mean come on, where's the sense in spending weeks creating something for the express purpose of it not being used?).

edit: Nvm, seems I missed something...
Edited by St_Arcane, May 23 2008, 06:28 PM.
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anima

Cazuza
May 23 2008, 09:20 AM
Two arguments I have seen repeatedly on the official EL forums are:

1. Too many fighters spend their time training on monsters, therefore they do not spend enough time in PK...
2. High level monsters are untrainable due to their current stats and respawn time, we want them to be redesigned so high level fighters can train and advance their skills further...

Both of these arguments have been made by PKers and are inconsistent. You want people to stop training so much and PK...yet you want better high level monster spawns to train on...?

Entropy responded to your suggestion with:
Quote:
 
If I did what you suggest, then people would PK even less, and PvE even more.

as far as i can tell, what they want is to be able to train with 48/48 p/c, then they could train some days and pk other days, at the moment you cant train(well) with 48/48 p/c and you cant pk(well) without 48/48 p/c, a lot of people would pk if they could train with 48/48 p/c which means if these changes were implememnted there would be more pk. the monsters have not been changed since the cap, afaik, yet the players have been dramatically, which is not very fair.

nice essay korrode btw.
"education is what remains when you have forgotten all that you learnt"
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Korrode
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LNX Warlord
Cazuza
May 23 2008, 09:20 AM
Entropy responded to your suggestion with:
Quote:
 
If I did what you suggest, then people would PK even less, and PvE even more.


Thats because Entropy, like you, either didn't read or didn't understand all my earlier posts in the thread (maybe u wanna go and actually read all of it: http://www.eternal-lands.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=43210)

I responded to Ent with
Quote:
 
How so?

All i'm asking is to make it so a person with 48/48 p/c can make the same exp p/h on a single spawn of a creature as a person with 28/44 p/c can on fluffy.

Would not the 48/48 person be more inclined to PK than the 28/44 p/c person?


...and he then did not respond to me again, instead, he just got abusive and insulting in another thread.

hmmmmm.
Edited by Korrode, May 23 2008, 02:46 PM.
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
"I'm a people person... who drinks."
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Cazuza
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Arite. Had another read.

And LOL radu makes me piss myself when he gets abusive "radu: Why don't you tell me what game that is, so I can come and drag my dick all over your combat system and tell you how much it sucks?" - lol he does overreact but he's a funny cunt, classic.
Edited by Cazuza, May 23 2008, 03:46 PM.
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Tirun

Honestly Korrode I have no idea why Entropy does not reply when you make this argument. He controls the drop rates so there isn't really a reason for not changing the spawn times and making them trainable. The closest thing I have seen to a real response to your question is that he is trying to make it harder to level at the highest levels so that fighting relies more on strategy than skills.

He has said that EL intentionally makes it harder to level the higher you get to avoid people maxing out the game and getting bored and to keep people from getting too much higher than anyone else. IMO this reasoning is completely and massively flawed.

There are a ton of ways to limit level achievement while still making it trainable all the way up to dragons. This argument especially holds no water when you consider people do train yetis and artic chims which are higher than the other chims. His argument just does not hold up to scrutiny and that could be why you never get a reply.

Tirun

If this same conversation comes up with him again you need to reply that people train on lower creatures instead of PKing instead of fighting the chims. Training does not stop it just gets true sighted. Entropy needs to own up to the problem and that what he is attempting to do does not work.
Edited by Tirun, Jun 6 2008, 11:45 PM.
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Korrode
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LNX Warlord
Exactly.

In the recent discussions about this on the main forums i even put it to Ent that to compensate for the higher a/d monsters being made trainable he could remove the true sight failing effect, so no one would level any faster anyways... still didn't take :-/

Although i don't think removing the TS failing effect is necessary anyway... f/m.chims do more damage than fluff/feros and have a higher crit rate. Quite a lot more resources would be used in training them... surely thats enough of a cost for a little more exp.
Edited by Korrode, Jun 7 2008, 08:47 AM.
"How can one ordinary man have so many enemies?"
"I'm a people person... who drinks."
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