About balance

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About balance; Things i noticed while playing.
Tweet Topic Started: Aug 1 2011, 11:37 PM (1,410 Views)
Karju	Aug 1 2011, 11:37 PM Post #1
Gifted Human Posts: 10 Group: Member Member #2,909 Joined: May 9, 2011	About Vegeta and stat multipliers: Most characters get solid multipliers at early levels, which allows them to reach Yao, Garlick and Saiyan Saga with at least a small boost. Vegeta, however, stands no chance against them in these early minutes of the game, which can be decisive in the outcome of the match. Even while Oozaru gives vegeta a considerable boost in power for a short amount of time, the giant bear is wildly outclassed by any push attack, like Bebi's scream, Freezer's imploding ball or Broly's punch. My suggestion is to give him a stat boost at lvl 15 or 20, or maybe, for the sake of variety, increased starting stats/ powerlevel /stat multiplier. About Cell: While the first 15 lvl's may seem way to harsh for him to get nerfed, the newly added defibrillator kinda offsets this, not to talk about getting help from some evil like broly or buu, which can take you to lvl 15 in a matter of seconds if you manage to pull a reasonable amount of creeps to them. Problem is, once you hit lvl 15, rushing to the city and absorbing humans, while dangerous the first moments, yields an insane amount of stats in a very short period of time, if you manage to survive the first 15 lvls without losing the defibrillator, Z fighters also have to kill you twice, practically assuring you a victory in a fight if you play your cards the right way. While i haven't got the chance to test the "resilience" of a cell farming in the city in big games (4vs4, 5vs5). I know for certaint that among players of equal level, in 3vs3 or 2vs2 matchs, trying to stop cell is, not only risky, but time consuming, which means that while you try to stop him, the other evil players may get way ahead of you. My sugestion here would be to implement either diminishing returns on humans absorbed or drastically decrease the stats you gain from them, not the experience, just the stats. About Yao: While the sudden increase in power may stop constant farming, the random factor of the number of powerups still makes him key in the first minutes of the game. Ignoring him can ruin your game if he drops 4 boss powerups, but rushing him to prevent the other team from getting the chance of 120 free base stats can be counter-productive if he decides to drop only one powerup. My suggestion here is to make him drop a fixed amount of powerups, 1 for the first 3 kills, 2 for the second 3, 3 for the rest. This way people will know what they are neglecting/striving-to-get. About defibrillator/emergency Senzu beans: Some characters, like Piccoro, Gohan and Freezer, do not really need them after lvl 35 (gohan/picco) or lvl 20 (freezer/cell). My suggestion here, remove them after that lvl. I knowthat late game, those 50k are meaningless, but with a lvl 45 Gohan, that item makes a different outcome in a battle. Some other items, like buu's chicken, aren't really necessary for them. Edited by Karju, Aug 1 2011, 11:45 PM.



Sora	Aug 2 2011, 12:04 AM Post #2
No boost! No boost! Posts: 1,617 Group: Super Member Member #1,175 Joined: Jul 20, 2010	Good post. I agree with everything you said except vegeta. Idk if a raise in stats is the best choice for him considering he used to be incredibly overpowered before saiyan pride was nerfed. Instead why not give him a disable to level the playing field with the villians you mentioned. Edited by Sora, Aug 2 2011, 12:04 AM.
	Your argument is invalid, my hair is a cloud. Thank you so much for the signature Pookie "Sometimes we have to look beyond what we want and do what's best" Piccolo


Demoknis	Aug 2 2011, 12:23 AM Post #3
ponders Posts: 865 Group: Super Member Member #1,256 Joined: Aug 1, 2010	Alright I'll actually post. Vegeta doesn't really need a stat boost, theres a large cluster of creeps just south of where he starts, you can easily rush lvl 35 by the time any of the evils even consider rushing yao except maybe Bebi but if you cant beat the crap out of him you suck anyway... even if Bebi is at lvl 20. Cell can be a bit of a problem but if you have good players on the Z-fighters (you never do) one of them will most likely recognize it and ask somebody to help gank him. Most of the time Cell can however spend like 30 minutes there without anyone touching him and end up rediculously strong and unbeatable... still partly the Z-fighters fault. Your posting based off your experience with 2v2's and 3v3's... which would indeed make him more subtle. Cell really is an unfortunate hero to play as you really have diminished chances of success if you get killed early or are unable to absorb for any reason. I like Cell as he is mainly because if you have competant players you can defeat him. All of the villians have knockbacks excluding Cell. You do however have to wait until Super 17 until you get a knockback though. Oozaru considering movement speed loss with less mana and no power up is fairly difficult to kill with against an enemy with knockback. I suppose Oozaru could have some sort of movement speed boost or something just to balance out the whole, lololol we knocked you back and your missing a fair portion of your mana now you'll never catch us and we'll just come back and kill you later aspect. Again, under most cases it's your fault for not doing a good enough job. The rest of the time it's due to unfortunate cirumstance and shitty allies. Yao is fine as he is, chances are if someone is well enough to "farm" Yao the other team is doing a shitty job anyway. The items aren't entirely needed but it's more or less for the majority of the crappy players who need them, not the ones who can survive without.
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Sora	Aug 2 2011, 01:04 AM Post #4
No boost! No boost! Posts: 1,617 Group: Super Member Member #1,175 Joined: Jul 20, 2010	I do feel like cell needs a nerf to the stats he receives from absorbing humans. As he's rewarded with big stats for taking minimal risk. This makes for very fixed gameplay and if you don't follow that route then you'll fall hopelessly behind. Looking beyond balance and just looking at it from a gameplay standpoint, absorbing humans can make for boring gameplay early game. 1 step toward cell being able to he can hang with the other heroes better early game without being forced to farm humans in city. Absorbtion rework I've suggested this before but I feel like it would solve alot of problems for cell since cell lacks any type of disable, what about reworking his absorbtion to be able to act as a mana drain toward enemy heroes. This would give him chasing/escaping ability as draining mana from the enemy would slow their movement speed and give him mana to use towards spells and namek regeneration. Maybe could replace his defibullator all together. Edited by Sora, Aug 2 2011, 01:04 AM.
	Your argument is invalid, my hair is a cloud. Thank you so much for the signature Pookie "Sometimes we have to look beyond what we want and do what's best" Piccolo


Demoknis	Aug 2 2011, 02:34 AM Post #5
ponders Posts: 865 Group: Super Member Member #1,256 Joined: Aug 1, 2010	I suppose his gameplay is very fixed, so I suppose another idea would be to allow him to absorb creeps although his spell would have to cost more mana, have a larger cooldown or give less stats. He is more or less forced to absorb humans in the city unless you rush lvl 45 and do sagas which is highly unlikely. Cell is more or less fine provided your in a game with good players. So indeed, absorption could use a rework. I don't entirely agree that Cell needs a disable considering Z fighters don't really have disables. Summary: Cell is good with good players but boring. Reworking absorption like that wouldn't particularly help Cell as much as it is now unless it would be overpowered and ranged.
	Clapping =D Derpy Twilight Sparkle Dr. Whooves Vinyl Scratch Yay~ Uhhh... The Truth My Little Drawing Dragonball Pon-E Derpy


Karju	Aug 2 2011, 05:15 AM Post #6
Gifted Human Posts: 10 Group: Member Member #2,909 Joined: May 9, 2011	Demoknis Aug 2 2011, 12:23 AM Vegeta doesn't really need a stat boost, theres a large cluster of creeps just south of where he starts, you can easily rush lvl 35 by the time any of the evils even consider rushing yao except maybe Bebi but if you cant beat the crap out of him you suck anyway... even if Bebi is at lvl 20. I'm going a bit offtopic, but i'm talking about being at yao's location the moment he spawns, which is about minute 3. By that time, i find it hard to be lvl 35 with vegeta. While it's fairly easy to be in that spot with a lvl 20 freezer, or a lvl 20 broly. Not to talk about buu, Chain, sell chicken, buy speed chip, chain the way there. But that's a different discussion altogether i think.



Raditz_IRL	Aug 2 2011, 07:13 AM Post #7
Ultra Super Saiyan Posts: 315 Group: Member Member #3,047 Joined: Jun 15, 2011	Herm. Am I the only one that trains goku at his spawn to get the first yao?
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No1Gamer	Aug 2 2011, 10:56 AM Post #8
Super Saiyan Posts: 292 Group: Member Member #223 Joined: Aug 22, 2009	no, me too. even when i'm vegeta i usually get the first yao. also with goku or even gohan. the 2. yao is to strong to camp through. i think vegeta is ok how he is.
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Demoknis	Aug 2 2011, 02:31 PM Post #9
ponders Posts: 865 Group: Super Member Member #1,256 Joined: Aug 1, 2010	I definitely don't believe that a lvl 20 Frieza or Broly could get to you before you take out Yao atleast once. Bebi kind of sucks even at lvl 20 so you can easily take him out. It's not hardto surprise Frieza and take out half his hp in a single blast before he can activate stubborness. You should be able to farm creeps quickly enough to hit lvl 15-20 by the time Yao spawns, and then catch him when he's coming down the mountain and reap the rewards. If your team is full of failures you still have a pretty good chance of killing anyone coming your way just because you've been KI TRAINING RIGHT?
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Raditz_IRL	Aug 2 2011, 04:40 PM Post #10
Ultra Super Saiyan Posts: 315 Group: Member Member #3,047 Joined: Jun 15, 2011	of course. But I just stick to that area. If memory serves... (I am generally a villain) I would get to lvl 10 and have three to four hundred ki. I think. I should try goku again....
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Karju	Aug 2 2011, 10:49 PM Post #11
Gifted Human Posts: 10 Group: Member Member #2,909 Joined: May 9, 2011	Raditz_IRL Aug 2 2011, 07:13 AM Herm. Am I the only one that trains goku at his spawn to get the first yao? I can be at yao 15 secons after he spawns more or less, as a lvl 20 broly or a lvl 20 freezer. Besides, spawning close to yao means absolutely nothing if the other team has enough time to blitz through the map while lvling and be there, just like you, when he spawns. The point i'm trying to make with yao is not wheter Z's are closer to him or not, but the fact that the random number of powerups he yields on kill can change the game's outcome. I have no problem with games turning as long as it is because of players action, but to leave part of the weight of the match on something so random doesn't suit me. Maybe i made a mistake by taking for implicit the fact that almost every character can be near Yao the moment he spawns.



Raditz_IRL	Aug 3 2011, 12:59 AM Post #12
Ultra Super Saiyan Posts: 315 Group: Member Member #3,047 Joined: Jun 15, 2011	well. you are indeed totally right. I was just making a nonessential point.
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Sora	Aug 3 2011, 01:29 AM Post #13
No boost! No boost! Posts: 1,617 Group: Super Member Member #1,175 Joined: Jul 20, 2010	Karju Aug 2 2011, 10:49 PM I can be at yao 15 secons after he spawns more or less, as a lvl 20 broly or a lvl 20 freezer. Besides, spawning close to yao means absolutely nothing if the other team has enough time to blitz through the map while lvling and be there, just like you, when he spawns. The point i'm trying to make with yao is not wheter Z's are closer to him or not, but the fact that the random number of powerups he yields on kill can change the game's outcome. I have no problem with games turning as long as it is because of players action, but to leave part of the weight of the match on something so random doesn't suit me. Maybe i made a mistake by taking for implicit the fact that almost every character can be near Yao the moment he spawns. I understand your point and I agree. Alot of it is setup to award chance like world tournament for instance. It's all a big gamble, you could join and get no matches until final or you could get every match leading up to the finals. Edited by Sora, Aug 3 2011, 01:30 AM.
	Your argument is invalid, my hair is a cloud. Thank you so much for the signature Pookie "Sometimes we have to look beyond what we want and do what's best" Piccolo


Karju	Aug 3 2011, 03:17 AM Post #14
Gifted Human Posts: 10 Group: Member Member #2,909 Joined: May 9, 2011	Never paid too much attention to the world tournament, but that's also a good point. My problem with yao is that it takes only 20 seconds to kill him, and goes from 30 to 120 stats, which is a lot early game.



Raditz_IRL	Aug 3 2011, 05:58 AM Post #15
Ultra Super Saiyan Posts: 315 Group: Member Member #3,047 Joined: Jun 15, 2011	agreed, world tourney is all or nothing and is much more difficult than yao. if you or a team mate beat yao, its all good.
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