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Anybody know the origins of these sayings?
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Topic Started: Nov 9 2009, 11:23 AM (2,609 Views)
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History Hunter
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Nov 20 2009, 11:28 PM
Post #21
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- Thorntonone
- Nov 20 2009, 10:40 PM
ok my serious answer.
Origin
Some references say that the brass triangles that supported stacks of iron cannon-balls on sailing ships were called monkeys and that in cold weather the metal contracted, causing the balls to fall off. The derivation of this phrase is difficult enough to determine without such tosh, so let's get that oft-repeated story out of the way first:
Cartoons of pirate ships always come complete with the usual icons - parrots, peg legs and pyramids of cannon-balls. That's artistic license rather than historical fact. The Royal Navy records that, on their ships at least, cannon-balls were stored in planks with circular holes cut into them - not stacked in pyramids. These planks were known as 'shot garlands', not monkeys, and they date back to at least 1769, when they were first referred to in print.
On dry land, the obvious way to store cannon-balls seems to be by stacking them. On board ship it's a different matter. A little geometry shows that a pyramid of balls will topple over if the base is tilted by more than 30 degrees. This tilting, not to mention any sudden jolting, would have been commonplace on sailing ships. It just isn't plausible that cannon-balls were stacked this way.
For those wanting a bit more detail, here's the science bit. The coefficient of expansion of brass is 0.000019; that of iron is 0.000012. If the base of the stack were one metre long, the drop in temperature needed to make the 'monkey' shrink relative to the balls by just one millimetre, would be around 100 degrees Celsius. Such a small shrinkage wouldn't have had the slightest effect. In any case, in weather like that, the sailors would probably have better things to think about than coining new phrases.
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james
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Nov 22 2009, 02:54 PM
Post #22
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Knight
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Heres one "Moiderin"or "pesterin" the G was never pronounced,both mean costantly asking the same question. "is'ta "=are you, " t't "= to as in is't off t't pub? dont know if was only the local farming community that dropped the last syllable from verbs or not,another abreviation was "tha Mon" =you must,
Mental note.I mon stop chunnerin on or't men wi white cou'ts in van bout bottom il come t' cart me off.
Edited by james, Nov 22 2009, 02:55 PM.
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Jon
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Nov 23 2009, 03:19 PM
Post #23
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Peasant
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- History Hunter
- Nov 20 2009, 11:28 PM
- Thorntonone
- Nov 20 2009, 10:40 PM
ok my serious answer.
Origin
Some references say that the brass triangles that supported stacks of iron cannon-balls on sailing ships were called monkeys and that in cold weather the metal contracted, causing the balls to fall off. The derivation of this phrase is difficult enough to determine without such tosh, so let's get that oft-repeated story out of the way first:
Cartoons of pirate ships always come complete with the usual icons - parrots, peg legs and pyramids of cannon-balls. That's artistic license rather than historical fact. The Royal Navy records that, on their ships at least, cannon-balls were stored in planks with circular holes cut into them - not stacked in pyramids. These planks were known as 'shot garlands', not monkeys, and they date back to at least 1769, when they were first referred to in print.
On dry land, the obvious way to store cannon-balls seems to be by stacking them. On board ship it's a different matter. A little geometry shows that a pyramid of balls will topple over if the base is tilted by more than 30 degrees. This tilting, not to mention any sudden jolting, would have been commonplace on sailing ships. It just isn't plausible that cannon-balls were stacked this way.
For those wanting a bit more detail, here's the science bit. The coefficient of expansion of brass is 0.000019; that of iron is 0.000012. If the base of the stack were one metre long, the drop in temperature needed to make the 'monkey' shrink relative to the balls by just one millimetre, would be around 100 degrees Celsius. Such a small shrinkage wouldn't have had the slightest effect. In any case, in weather like that, the sailors would probably have better things to think about than coining new phrases.
The trouble with the Royal Navy brass triangle being the source of the Brass Monkey is that we have written evidence that the saying was in usage in the early 17th century before the use of the brass triangle. So at this point I am suppose to explain where the saying comes from, the sad fact is that I can’t and no one else seems to be able to as well. I think this just shows how things can get lost in History and how important it is not to let this happen. This is just a silly saying of no meaning what so ever but it makes you think what else we lost without even knowing it.
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History Hunter
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Nov 23 2009, 03:46 PM
Post #24
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Totally agree Jon.
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james
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Nov 23 2009, 05:35 PM
Post #25
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Knight
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- james
- Nov 22 2009, 02:54 PM
Heres one "Moiderin"or "pesterin" the G was never pronounced,both mean costantly asking the same question. "is'ta "=are you, " t't "= to as in is't off t't pub? dont know if was only the local farming community that dropped the last syllable from verbs or not,another abreviation was "tha Mon" =you must,
Mental note.I mon stop chunnerin on or't men wi white cou'ts in van bout bottom il come t' cart me off. I think i'm wasting my time I must be chunerin a foreign language better check with Wikapeda.
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History Hunter
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Nov 23 2009, 07:07 PM
Post #26
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I'm making note of all the sayings James and am going to pin a topic at the top with all the ones on so far and then start putting them on the website. I'm just busy with other things at the mo . It's a bit like the duck syndrome .. calm on the surface and swimming madly underneath
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Andy_Bell
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Jul 16 2010, 09:32 PM
Post #27
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Serf
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One from my grandmother (ex hambleton) 'its deemin' in english translation the clouds are getting darker looks like it could rain don;t you just love the folk from over wyre lol
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Thorntonone
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Jul 17 2010, 10:49 AM
Post #28
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- Quote:
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don;t you just love the folk from over wyre
actually no
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james
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Jul 17 2010, 11:26 PM
Post #29
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Knight
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- Andy_Bell
- Jul 16 2010, 09:32 PM
One from my grandmother (ex hambleton) 'its deemin' in english translation the clouds are getting darker looks like it could rain don;t you just love the folk from over wyre lol Hi, when you live this side ut river tha calls it Main Dyke.
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Whitespin
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Aug 2 2010, 02:09 PM
Post #30
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Peasant
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Here is one 'Nesh' as in 'It's fair nesh today' now in Lancashire it means 'it's cold today' however in Yorkshire it means someone who is soft and can't stand the cold!
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