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Jesus and the Bible (Religious People 2.0)
Topic Started: Nov 21 2011, 09:33 PM (2,191 Views)
surrealmagnum


wolfenflautist0994
Nov 24 2011, 10:23 PM
Dang, that was a LOT to read through. If only I had a memory that was able to regurgitate all of what you said, even though I haven't been taught some of these things. Hasfarr, read the dang post!!! It's not gonna kill you to read something that may or may not take a good amount of time (depending on your reading speed)to read through. I read through it, and I'm happy for it, too. Magnum, what you have to say about this is great. I should share this with a few people I know. This is very impressive, I must say.
Thanks wolfie wolf wolf woof wolf. There's so much evidence not included in this small post it's amazing. I've talked to creationist teachers (Physics teachers, English teachers, etc.), and they all have something new to add. A Physics teacher I talked to, for example, could literally give me hours and hours of lectures for each area of science.
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wolfenflautist0994
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That's definitely a lot to comprehend. Apparently, Mirage isn't convinced. You may want to either elaborate on what you said or maybe give more evidence out. I'm thinking that it might go for some other people, too.

EDIT: I'm also on Skype if you want to chat.
Edited by wolfenflautist0994, Nov 24 2011, 10:32 PM.
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Mirage2777
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I had just a little more to say originally, but Surreal was getting bored:

- We did not evolve from chimps. Chimps and humans evolved from a common ancestor, and therefore each lineage had its share of alterations to the genome which would add up to their total differentiation. Furthermore, from what I know, there are millions of differences between the two, but only a few thousand potentially major variations, which is reasonable considering what I'd just pointed out.

- From what I understand, language itself isn't exactly an evolutionary trait, rather that the ability to understand and use language is. In theory, this was sufficiently developed, language's progession wouldn't be from simpler to complex but rather from simple to adequate.

- Evolution doesn't neccesarily say that things go from simple to complex, only that a population will change/adapt when there is a need for it, and those with beneficial adaptations/mutations will be more likely to surive and spread their genes than those without them. With the "change in response to environment" mechanics, unneccesary complexity wouldn't result.

- Radioactive/Carbon dating: I'm not as knowledgeable in this field as I'd like to be, but from what I understand, the studies that have been studied in recent years do in fact show that environmental factors are rather minor in effecting radioactive decay, usually being less than a percent uncertainty. This is all accounted for, of course, which is why dates are given as ranges. Adding on to this, more commonly, studies show almost no influence from factors like pressure or temperature.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the big picture, because there are many things that we just can't explain when it comes down to it.
However, objectively, these are a few points that need to be addressed.
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GameBoii64
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GameBoii64
Okay, I'll jut say it.

I have no idea how any of this relates to religion at all, can you PLEASE explain it.

I'm interested and stuff. :C
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surrealmagnum


Mirage2777
Nov 24 2011, 11:26 PM
I had just a little more to say originally, but Surreal was getting bored:

- We did not evolve from chimps. Chimps and humans evolved from a common ancestor, and therefore each lineage had its share of alterations to the genome which would add up to their total differentiation. Furthermore, from what I know, there are millions of differences between the two, but only a few thousand potentially major variations, which is reasonable considering what I'd just pointed out.

- From what I understand, language itself isn't exactly an evolutionary trait, rather that the ability to understand and use language is. In theory, this was sufficiently developed, language's progession wouldn't be from simpler to complex but rather from simple to adequate.

- Evolution doesn't neccesarily say that things go from simple to complex, only that a population will change/adapt when there is a need for it, and those with beneficial adaptations/mutations will be more likely to surive and spread their genes than those without them. With the "change in response to environment" mechanics, unneccesary complexity wouldn't result.

- Radioactive/Carbon dating: I'm not as knowledgeable in this field as I'd like to be, but from what I understand, the studies that have been studied in recent years do in fact show that environmental factors are rather minor in effecting radioactive decay, usually being less than a percent uncertainty. This is all accounted for, of course, which is why dates are given as ranges. Adding on to this, more commonly, studies show almost no influence from factors like pressure or temperature.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the big picture, because there are many things that we just can't explain when it comes down to it.
However, objectively, these are a few points that need to be addressed.
I never said we evolved from chimps. I'm just saying that people attribute the 98% similarity with proof for evolution, when the 2% difference makes us far from the same thing. I also mentioned the evolutionary split between the evolution of chimps and humans that took place 6 million years ago, so I don't think I ever hinted that we evolved from them.

When I mentioned language, I mean the use and development of language. And even if it were to be simpler to adequate, that still isn't true. The correlation between animal grunts becoming complex with diverse languages, varied inflections, and grammatical structure should also apply to those very same ancient languages becoming more complex, when they actually became simpler.

And for things becoming more complex, I mean that devolution does not occur.

From what you said about radioactive dating... what? Studies show that environmental factors are minor? Never heard that one before. Simple chemistry says that a chemical reaction (specifically, rate of decay), is sped up by higher temperatures, and slowed by colder temperatures. (i.e. putting stuff in a fridge) Not only is the rate of decay affected by temperature changes, but you would certainly agree that a rock would decay faster if it was placed on the bottom of a river, right? How about a global flood?

Feel free to comment more on my post, I just didn't see why it was taking so long.
GameBoii64
Nov 24 2011, 11:29 PM
Okay, I'll jut say it.

I have no idea how any of this relates to religion at all, can you PLEASE explain it.

I'm interested and stuff. :C
Scientific evidence for a creator, as opposed to atheism, which doesn't believe in a creator.
Edited by surrealmagnum, Nov 24 2011, 11:46 PM.
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LikeaBoss
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So this is a thread against me? gg
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surrealmagnum


LikeaBoss
Nov 24 2011, 11:48 PM
So this is a thread against me? gg
Forgive me, I didn't know you were the one and only atheist in the world, and I especially wasn't aware you had any advanced understanding of evolutionary characteristics and universal observations.
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Mirage2777
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Even with the differences, only a fraction of those differences are currently seen to have had the potential for any biological impact.

Like I mentioned, from my understand, language isn't exactly an evolutionary trait and therefore doesn't necessarily follow the same process as one. Only the ability for the language was, involving things like vocal chords and the like.

One area I have to concede on, however, is the Giraffe. That is a rather good point, as now that I think about it, it's rather unlikely that multiple beneficial mutations would simultaneously occur at a considerable rate.

Yes, normally, factors such as pressure and temperature do in fact change rate of decay.
However, in radioactive decay, half-life has been found to be largely independent of environmental factors.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/halfli2.html

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Nuclear_Chemistry/Radioactive_Decay_Rates

- Radiations from Radioactive Substances by Ernest Rutherford

I agree with you on the general idea, from what I see, but I'm more in favor of the idea of Religion's proof being spiritual for the most part rather than physical.
Don't be surprised if I don't reply that often though, since I've grown rather tired of getting involved in these religion topics.
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wolfenflautist0994
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After reading that bit about a global flood, I'm gonna go slightly off topic and discuss something that actually happened rather recently. My old drill instructor for marching band actually posted this a few days ago.

"Scientists baffled by the discovery of 80+ whale fossils found in a Chilean desert.... hmmm... if there only was a time in history when water covered the Earth...like.. I don't know.. if the whole Earth had a flood or something...covering it with water...rain for 40days... 150days until the flood waters receded... if. I . could. just. put. my. finger. on. it."

Just something to think about. ;)
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Mirage2777
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wolfenflautist0994
Nov 25 2011, 02:18 AM
After reading that bit about a global flood, I'm gonna go slightly off topic and discuss something that actually happened rather recently. My old drill instructor for marching band actually posted this a few days ago.

"Scientists baffled by the discovery of 80+ whale fossils found in a Chilean desert.... hmmm... if there only was a time in history when water covered the Earth...like.. I don't know.. if the whole Earth had a flood or something...covering it with water...rain for 40days... 150days until the flood waters receded... if. I . could. just. put. my. finger. on. it."

Just something to think about. ;)
I read that article as well, and there's one flaw for using it as evidence for the great flood:
The whales had all died right next to each other. Surely if the entire Earth were flooded at the time, this would be an extremely unlikely occurrence, wouldn't it?
It should lead you to think the water was probably rather shallow, hence why they all died.
Again, I'm not against the big picture, but you have to be careful when choosing your evidence.
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