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Seel
Topic Started: Oct 23 2008, 03:56 PM (759 Views)
Playamania
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Base Stats: Min- Min Max Max+
HP : - 65 - xx - 23 - 26 - xx
Atk: - 45 -- 9 - 11 - 14 - 15
Def: - 55 - 10 - 12 - 15 - 16
SpA: - 45 -- 9 - 11 - 14 - 15
SpD: - 70 - 11 - 13 - 16 - 17
Spe: - 45 -- 9 - 11 - 14 - 15


[SET]
name: Hydrated Stall
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Protect / Surf
move 4: Rest / Surf
item: Oran Berry / Rindo Berry / Wacan Berry
ability: Hydration
nature: Calm
evs: 236 HP / 236 Def / 36 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
This is, without a doubt, the most effective set Seel can pull off, although the offensive nature of Little Cup can still make it hard to execute in some situations.

The strategy of this set is simple, set up your own rain or switch in while rain is in play and Toxic their switch in. Then you stall out with Protect and Rest, which is a one-turn 100% recovery move with Hydration. Surf is an option to stop poison and steel types walling this set however neither is common in Little Cup play so it is recommended that the Protect and Hydrated Resting combination is used. If your foe cannot OHKO Seel, Protect and Rest guarantees Seel won't faint until the rain stops, or your opponent gets a critical hit.

The Wacan and Rindo berries are given as options incase you want to be able to survive a STAB Electric attack or an Abra's Energy Ball respectively, although overall they are inferior to an Oran Berry.

Damage Calculations
 
Staryu - Timid - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Thunderbolt = 84.62% - 100% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Staryu - Modest - Max SpA - Life Orb - Thunderbolt = 84.62% - 100% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Diglett - Adamant - Max Atk - Choice Band - Earthquake = 61.54% - 80.77%

Dratini - Modest - Max SpA - Life Orb - Draco Meteor = 73.08% - 92.31%

Cranidos - Jolly - Max Atk - Choice Scarf - Head Smash = 92.31% - 107.69% (33% chance of a OHKO - 26.7% factoring in the shaky accuracy)

Murkrow - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Dark Pulse = 61.54% - 73.08% (Sucker Punch has identical power on a physical Murkrow, although it will fail as you won't be using direct damage against Murkrow)

Porygon - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Scarf - Thunderbolt = 69.23% - 84.62%

Chinchou - Calm - 148 SpA EVs - Oran Berry - Thunderbolt = 76.92% - 100% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Larvitar - Jolly - Max Atk - Choice Band or Flame Orb (Guts activated) - Earthquake = 61.54% - 80.77%

Larvitar - Jolly - Max Atk - Life Orb - +1 Atk (Dragon Dance) - Earthquake = 84.62% - 103.85% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Buizel - Adamant - Max Atk - Choice Band - Brick Break = 38.46% - 46.15%

Gastly - Naive - Max SpA - Oran Berry - Thunderbolt = 69.23% - 84.62% (Not a OHKO with a Modest Nature either)

Voltorb - Naive - Max Atk - Life Orb - Explosion = 57.69% - 69.23% (Although a standard Naive Life Orb Voltorb can OHKO 66% of the time with Thunderbolt)

Omanyte - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Hidden Power Grass = 69.23% - 84.62%

Houndour - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Hidden Power Grass = 76.92% - 92.31%



[SET]
name: Physical Rain Dance Lead
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Rain Dance
move 3: Return
move 4: Waterfall
item: Damp Rock / Oran Berry
ability: Hydration
nature: Adamant
evs: 236 HP / 236 Atk / 36 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Seel has a lot of hidden potential and unexpectedness. The plethora of physical priority moves this guy packs can be very advantageous not only as a lead, but as a revenge killer.

The plan here is to Fake Out if you suspect the foe to not switch out, or if you suspect your opponent will switch, use the free turn to set up the downpour. From here, you can strike the foe with the unresisted Normal/Water combination, Seel won't fall easily, however you might take down one foe while the suicide attacking will allow a frail Rain Dance sweeper to switch in freely once Seel has fainted.

The Hydration ability is recommended as a far superior choice to Thick Fat, as being a water type, Seel should not be on the receiving end of many Fire or Ice attacks, so avoiding status is always helpful.



[SET]
name: Special Rain Dance Lead
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Surf
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hidden Power Grass
item: Damp Rock / Oran Berry
ability: Hydration
nature: Modest
evs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 160 SpA / 36 SpD
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
A more sweep orientated Rain Dance lead than the last, although in gaining more powerful moves, you have lost the priority. Even with maxed out speed, Seel isn't very fast so, rather than investing in speed, we make it a bulky attacker.

It's the same concept as the previous set, you get the rain up here and go on the offensive with Seel until he faints, allowing a frail Rain Dance sweeper a free switch-in.

The moveset provides floorless coverage and, with the bulky set up, Seel won't be fainting too fast.


[SET]
name: Priority
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Ice Shard
move 4: Waterfall / Return
item: Life Orb / Oran Berry
ability: Hydration
nature: Adamant
evs: 236 HP / 236 Atk / 36 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Not many people know that Seel gains access to 3 priority moves, so this set is based around utilising them. Fake Out is basic for damage on the first turn in, followed up by Ice Shard and STAB Aqua Jet. The choice between Waterfall and Return is purely up to you, Waterfall gains STAB, but Return stops most Water pokemon from walling the set.

Life Orb will allow you to hit harder, Oran Berry will increase survivability, choose depending on which you prefer.



[SET]
name: Physical Choice
move 1: Aqua Jet
move 2: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
move 3: Return / Body Slam
move 4: Ice Shard
item: Choice Band
ability: Hydration
nature: Adamant
evs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
A basic and inevitable Choice set come as an option for nearly alll pokemon nowadays and Seel is no exception. Seel has rather lackluster offensive ability however, equipped with a Choice Band, it can deal respectable damage to opponants, as well as gaining priority in a STAB'd Aqua Jet.

Although the physical choice set gains priority with Aqua Jet, it lacks the power and movepool which the special based set has.



[SET]
name: Special Choice
move 1: Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Brine / Signal Beam
item: Choice Specs
ability: Hydration
nature: Modest
evs: 156 HP / 76 Def / 240 SpA / 36 SpD
ivs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]
Definately the more powerful of the two choice sets and, with Seel's natural bulkiness, can pull off Modest and Choice Specs together. The first 3 moves offer unresisted coverage across the whole metagame with the fourth moveslot being situational. Signal Beam hits Psychic and Dark types harder than Surf, most notably Abra switch ins whereas Brine provides a powerful, almost guaranteed finishing move against foes with less than 50% of their HP remaining, so the choice for the final moveslot is purely on when you feel you need most.


[OTHER OPTIONS]
Offensively, Seel notably gains access to Double Edge, Water Pulse, Headbutt and Icy Wind, however they are generally inferior to the attacks stated in the sets. Blizzard is also available if you want to risk the shaky accuracy for the 25 point increase in base power from Ice Beam and Body Slam is useful over Return if you want to try your luck at getting your foe paralysed.

Naturally, Seel has access to Substitute, which may help stalling, although would probably have a negative effect as once your sub is broken, you are in the OHKO range of a lot more Pokemon at 75% HP than at 100%.

On the defensive side, there is Aqua Ring, Attract, Encore and Perish Song, although they are mostly situational moves, being even more risky with Seel's low base speed. Lastly, Seel has the ability to set up Hail instead of Rain however, with Snover in Little Cup, this is rarely of use.



[EVs]
Seel's base stats are very convenient for Little Cup play, as they allow you to max out two stats with 236 EVs in each, before placing the remaining 36 EVs in to special defence for a 1 point boost.

Seel is built as a bulky pokemon, so it is recommended that you max out his HP in most cases, before loading up his defences or attacking stat.

Hidden Power Grass will leave Seel needing 4 extra EVs to reach it's desired special attack stat, however with the other EVs spread across HP and the defences, you can still use all of your EVs without wasting a single one, which is a god send for a Little Cup pokemon.



[OPINION]
Seel is a commonly overlooked pokemon, even though it has impressive defensive capabilities. It is the only pokemon in the Little Cup that has the Hydration ability and, coupled with Seel's defences, it is easily abused with Rest and Rain Dance. Although it may take away what couldv'e been another sweeper on a rain dance team, it will certainly add bulk to your team, and is a solid, consistant choice.

When used to it's full potential, Seel resembles a Little Cup version of those bulky waters you see in the OU metagame, Suicune and Vaporeon come to mind.



[COUNTERS]
The stall set is completely walled by Steel and Poison types aswell as taunt users if it lacks Surf. Guts or Quick Feet users will also happily switch in to a Toxic and get a free boost, Teddiursa, Larvitar, Taillow and Rattata being the most common. Other than this, the only other way to counter is to out predict it, by getting something poisoned, then using the turn when it protects to get a free switch.

The lead sets are counterable by faster priority leads, such as Aipom and Meowth, as well the fact that it can allow Ghosts to come in on the Fake Out, Gastly to threaten with Thunderbolt. Shuppet to set up trick room to counter the swift swimmers and Misdreavus to come in a setup a calm mind sweep.

As with most choice sets, you simply need to out-predict them, get some overall damage in and revenge kill when they are within suitable range.







- - -



My first ever analysis, constructive criticism is always welcome.
Edited by Playamania, Oct 23 2008, 06:36 PM.
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eric the espeon
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Nitpick time:

Hydrated Stall
"This is, without a doubt, the most effective set Seel can pull off, although the offensive nature of Little Cup can still make it hard to execute in some situations."
I don't see that see at brilliant, if it had better defenses maybe... but its too easy to 2KO in LC. It needs a turn of setup to start doing much (so unless it forces a switch it just gets 2KOd) and ANY Poison or Steel type or anything with Substitute can set up on it without Surf.) but it should stay as an option. Maybe hype it a little less and move it a bit lower?

Wacan/Rindo don't seem very good options to me, have you found them effective? Oran may give you that chance to set up Rain Dance against more foes I think.

Toxic damage... meh it seems like most things will beat you down or set up and 1KO you as you have very little offense, and if you run Surf/Rest/Toxic who will you bother using surf on? A Hydro rest set is needed but Toxi Stall never seemed effective to me, but you did almost sweep me with a Stockpile Munchlax so... yea...

Lists of damage calcs don't go in the analysis, they can go in a separate post (I am putting them at the bottom of this one so people can find them easily).

Physical Rain Dance Lead
Waterfall or something like Double Edge (for water resists) seems better than Rest, you want to set up rain dance and faint to let a powerful sweeper in before too many turns of rain are wasted not save it for late game. And few Swift Swim sweepers can switch into the attacks that would be aimed for Seel.

Special Rain Dance Lead
Pretty much the same as above, but with HP Grass>Rest not Waterfall.

Physical Choice
Has serious slashitus, the moves should be more like
move 1: Aqua Jet
move 2: Waterfall / Aqua Tail (pick one and put the other in Other Options)
move 3: Return / Body Slam / Double Edge (pick one and put the other in Other Options)
move 4: Ice Shard

Toxic / Icicle Spear / Perish Song.. none of them are as useful as an extra Priority move.


Special Choice
A few things to fix,

Brine's effect is: Power doubles if foe's HP is less than half.
So this "with Seel's high base HP, Brine will, more often than not, have it's power doubled," needs changing.


I think that a priority set is needed, Fake Out+Aqua Jet made squirtle OU (and Squirtleboy) and Seel also has Ice Shard. Maybe something like:
Fake Out
Aqua Jet
Waterfall
Ice Shard
with LO

EVs is ok, OO looks fine, Opinion could be expanded a little with mentions of the priority set, Counters should include some UU/BL Pokemon as well as OUs.

Well there is quite a few things to improve but its not bad for a first analysis.

Staryu - Timid - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Thunderbolt = 84.62% - 100% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Staryu - Modest - Max SpA - Life Orb - Thunderbolt = 84.62% - 100% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Diglett - Adamant - Max Atk - Choice Band - Earthquake = 61.54% - 80.77%

Dratini - Modest - Max SpA - Life Orb - Draco Meteor = 73.08% - 92.31%

Cranidos - Jolly - Max Atk - Choice Scarf - Head Smash = 92.31% - 107.69% (33% chance of a OHKO - 26.7% factoring in the shaky accuracy)

Murkrow - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Dark Pulse = 61.54% - 73.08% (Sucker Punch has identical power on a physical Murkrow, although it will fail as you won't be using direct damage against Murkrow)

Porygon - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Scarf - Thunderbolt = 69.23% - 84.62%

Chinchou - Calm - 148 SpA EVs - Oran Berry - Thunderbolt = 76.92% - 100% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Larvitar - Jolly - Max Atk - Choice Band or Flame Orb (Guts activated) - Earthquake = 61.54% - 80.77%

Larvitar - Jolly - Max Atk - Life Orb - +1 Atk (Dragon Dance) - Earthquake = 84.62% - 103.85% (Only a 2.56% chance of a OHKO)

Buizel - Adamant - Max Atk - Choice Band - Brick Break = 38.46% - 46.15%

Gastly - Naive - Max SpA - Oran Berry - Thunderbolt = 69.23% - 84.62% (Not a OHKO with a Modest Nature either)

Voltorb - Naive - Max Atk - Life Orb - Explosion = 57.69% - 69.23% (Although a standard Naive Life Orb Voltorb can OHKO 66% of the time with Thunderbolt)

Omanyte - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Hidden Power Grass = 69.23% - 84.62%

Houndour - Modest - Max SpA - Choice Specs - Hidden Power Grass = 76.92% - 92.31%
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Playamania
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Made some revisions on the analysis.

A note on the first set though, you misunderstand how it is used, just picture -

Seel switches in while rain is in play and threatens your pokemon enough to force a switch.
Seel hits the counter (For example, TimidSpecs Staryu) with Toxic and on the next turn uses protect. On the turn after, your Staryu Thunderbolts Seel, doing 82% of damage and Seel uses rest, bringing it back to 100%. Hydration then cures the sleep and on the following turn I protect again.

Now, without realising, your Staryu has just lost (6+12+18+24=) 60% of it's own HP without leaving a scratch on it.

Say I went and switch to a ground type because the rain had now stopped and you use Tbolt, your Staryu now only has 10% of it's HP left and must switch, allowing whatever took the Tbolt on the switch a free turn to do whatever.

Hopefully this clears up that set's use a lot better.

And yes, I have stated in counters that the set is easy to wall/counter, but it still doesn't deny it's effectiveness when pulled off.
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eric the espeon
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Quote:
 
Seel switches in while rain is in play and threatens your pokemon enough to force a switch.

How many Pokemon can Seel switch into safely (very, very minimal damage or their switch in will 1KO) AND scare out? Many players would sacrifice a Pokemon to do extra damage even if they could not win, and even with Oran Seel can't live for long.
Also rain requires team support, something that is at a premium in LC.

Quote:
 
Seel hits the counter (For example, TimidSpecs Staryu) with Toxic and on the next turn uses protect. On the turn after, your Staryu Thunderbolts Seel, doing 82% of damage and Seel uses rest, bringing it back to 100%. Hydration then cures the sleep and on the following turn I protect again.

Staryu can switch out at any point. Almost all teams will have multiple things that can
1. Set up and 1KO
Toxic does only a little damage and gives you ample time to boost your stats then 1KO Seel and possibly their team.
2. Has Substitute
Anything with Sub can use it as setup fodder if it switches in on a non Toxic attack.
3. Is Poison or Steel
yea...


Quote:
 
Now, without realising, your Staryu has just lost (6+12+18+24=) 60% of it's own HP without leaving a scratch on it.

Even if by some miracle they leave their Pokemon in you only did 60%.. HP Grass or something would do as much if not more and on top of that you wasted many turns of precious rain...
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Playamania
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eric the espeon
Oct 23 2008, 07:00 PM
Quote:
 
Seel switches in while rain is in play and threatens your pokemon enough to force a switch.

How many Pokemon can Seel switch into safely (very, very minimal damage or their switch in will 1KO) AND scare out? Many players would sacrifice a Pokemon to do extra damage even if they could not win, and even with Oran Seel can't live for long.
Also rain requires team support, something that is at a premium in LC.

Quote:
 
Seel hits the counter (For example, TimidSpecs Staryu) with Toxic and on the next turn uses protect. On the turn after, your Staryu Thunderbolts Seel, doing 82% of damage and Seel uses rest, bringing it back to 100%. Hydration then cures the sleep and on the following turn I protect again.

Staryu can switch out at any point. Almost all teams will have multiple things that can
1. Set up and 1KO
Toxic does only a little damage and gives you ample time to boost your stats then 1KO Seel and possibly their team.
2. Has Substitute
Anything with Sub can use it as setup fodder if it switches in on a non Toxic attack.
3. Is Poison or Steel
yea...


Quote:
 
Now, without realising, your Staryu has just lost (6+12+18+24=) 60% of it's own HP without leaving a scratch on it.

Even if by some miracle they leave their Pokemon in you only did 60%.. HP Grass or something would do as much if not more and on top of that you wasted many turns of precious rain[/small]...


Like I said, it's easy to counter, but it's still a problem causer for their team, it scouts their team, it racks up entry hazard damage with the switching it causes.
Edited by Playamania, Oct 23 2008, 07:12 PM.
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Kannon
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SDS's official henchman

Priority set wants no HP EVs and a lower HP IV to get 19 HP for minimum LO Recoil.

Toxic doesn't work in LC, it just doesn't. Don't even try to argue the point considering an attacking move would do more damage in a shorter span of time even with no EVs

Seel isn't very notable for starting rain. It's only selling point is hydration + Rest which also doesn't work in LC when tons of crap can OHKO you. This isn't like OU/UU/Whatever, it just doesn't work.

Needs an anti-lead with Fake-Out/Aqua Jet/Protect/Filler @ LO or sash
[14:29] <%Kannon> what resists water/flying
[14:29] <+MantykeKnight> ice ?_?

suck on that SDS
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