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| Sandshrew; The greatest mouse pokemon | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 28 2008, 09:14 PM (1,607 Views) | |
| Mr Escalator | Jul 28 2008, 09:14 PM Post #1 |
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Sandshrew![]()
Set 1: Standard Shrew
Item: Oran Berry / Brightpowder Nature: Adamant / Impish EVs: 196 HP /236 Atk / 76 Def Comments: Sandshrew has two nice things going for him; Above average attack and great defense on the physical side. This set is a mix between offense and defense, hitting moderately hard, while being able to take hits as well. Earthquake is there to take advantage of STAB and 75 base attack and is Sandshrew's most powerful move, while Night Slash is there purely for coverage against Ghosts who levitate over EQ. The next two slots of his moveset is recommended to house Substitute and Focus Punch, to form the dangerous Sub Punch combo. Fighting and Dark is only resisted my one pokemon in Little Cup; Croagunk. Luckily, Gunk is weak to ground, making this set unresisted. Alternatively, Stealth Rock can be run over Substitute if you're in the need for a sturdy SR'er, as Sandshrew can do this rather well. On that note, if you sacrifice the safety of Substitute, counter becomes a completely viable choice over Focus Punch. Oran berry boosts Shrew's longevity, while Brightpowder can really ruin an opponent's plan of attack, especially in a sandstorm, and compliments the use of substitute nicely. Either works. Set 2: Support Shrew
Item: Oran Berry / Brightpowder Nature: Adamant / Impish EVs: 196 HP /156 Atk / 156 Def Comments: This is another use for Sandshrew's talents, being able to set up for your team and clear the harmful entry hazards for those who are weak. The Ev's sacrifice the attack of the Standard Sandshrew for a good deal more HP, increasing it's longevity. Earthquake is there to take advantage of it's STAB. The next two are fairly straightforward; Set up rocks on the switch or clear them away. The last option isn't so straightforward. Swagger is great for special attacker switches, or walls that would like to take advantage of his switch out. One thing you will have to worry about is something like Gligar coming in on the Attack boost. Night Slash makes sure you aren't walled by ghosts, and helps the overall use of Rapid Spin. The final option, Protect, is for scouting out the opponent, though you have to be careful of protecting on a setup. Again, the choice comes down to the consistent Oran Berry, or the luck based Bright Powder. Set 3: Swords Shrew
Item: Focus Sash / Oran Berry / *Iron Ball Nature: Adamant / Impish EVs: 196 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Def Comments: A hand-me-down from it's older brother, Sandshrew can use Swords Dance to some success. Come in as a revenge or possible electric attack to force a switch, and swords dance up. While not the speediest creature, Sandshrew has some bulk to it, allowing it tank physical hits while slugging off powerful attacks. Focus Sash can be used with Shrews immunity to sandstorm and spikes, and allows it to survive a special attack. Oran Berry allows it to fight off physical threats a lot better, and even helps it to go toe-to-toe with Bronzor with multiple Dances. For attacks, Ground and Dark, and whatever happens to be your third option, will hit everything in LC for neutral, and Rockslide hits Murkrows quite hard. This set can also be geared towards working in Trick Room, despite Sandshrew's base 40 speed. Adamant nature can be swapped with a Brave one, Impish can be swapped with Relaxed, and the Speed IV's can be dropped to 0. This lets it outspeed a lot and hit with powerful Swords Danced moves. Fling comes in as an after thought, making Sandshrew faster in a TR setting, and giving him a base 150 Dark move. Without a swords dance under it's belt, Night Slash won't 1hKO the standard Misdreavus switch in, whereas Fling will. * Both Fling and Iron ball are NOT currently implemented in Shoddy Battle. Set 4: Beef Shrew
Item: Choice Band Nature: Adamant EVs: 116 HP / 236 Atk / 156 Def Comments: The beefiest of all the sets, with the potential of hitting a terrifying 27 attack with Adamant nature and a choice band. The attacks are similar to those on the previous sets. EQ / NS / FP will hit everything for neutral, and the last is for SE coverage. Rock Slide hits Murkrow hard with a chance of a speed decrease, whereas X-Scissor hits grass types for super effective. Focus Punch should be considered over Brick Break since choice sets are all about prediction and hitting hard; FP hits Murkrow just as hard as Rock Slide, and hits Bronzor for the most of all this set, while it ends up being just as strong as EQ. If you worry about getting flinched, BB can be used. Scarf can be considered, but only if you hit over 19 speed, which means trading in bulkiness and attack for speed; Dropping HP and Def for 236 Spd and trading in your Adamant nature for a Jolly one might not be that desirable. Other Options While sort of gimmicky, Natural Gift grants Sandshrew to some much needed coverage with an 80 BP Physical Fire/Ice/Electric/Etc move, that triggers the berry after this move. Salac and Liechi berries should work from this. Mentioned briefly in one of the sets, Fling is a decent option in place of Night Slash, and it's possible to even inflict status onto the opponent. Rapid Spin can be used, but not recommended in this fast paced metagame. Aerial Ace can be used to deal with Fighting types and Gyro Ball can be used on a TR set. Sandshrew can also Endure/Flail, Protect to scout and stall in the storm, Swagger a SpAtker on the switch in, or Dig for a STAB stall move. Quite a few extra options, thats for sure. EVs Most sets are geared to increasing Sandshrew's durability through raising Hp and Def. Attack is also a fairly big consideration, allowing it to hit things harder with it's wonderful unresisted attack coverage. EVs in the SubSalac and Scarf set allow it to break over 21 speed to outpace all non-scarfed Pokemon in Little Cup. Opinion While at first glance, Sandshrew seems like the mediocre child of Gligar and Krabby, and while that's probably not to far from the truth, Shrew has a good range of tools he can work with; The main thing being able to Sub Punch with a dark move and STAB EQ to deal with Croagunk resistors, while another is being able to support with Stealth Rocks and Counter the premiere physical attackers. He can run Swords Dance, but ultimately, Gligar does this better without needing to rely on Trick Room. Shrew can also run a choice set, but everyone and their mothers seems to be able to pull choice off in LC, and nothing sets Shrew out apart from the rest. Sand Veil is quite need, and quite frustrating with Brightpowder Counters Most bulky Pokemon who aren't hit for anything stronger than neutral, mainly bulky Waters and Grounds, laugh at attempts towards them. Mantyke is immune to his STAB EQ, and threatens Shrew with it's own STAB Surf. Gligar makes an excellent counter, flying high above the quakes Sandshrew can send out, while tanking the other attacks with it's Base 100 Def. It can set up with Swords Dances of it's own, and can even abuse the sandstorm that Sandshrew so loves just as well. Bronzor can take most hits, but can't threaten it in return and doesn't like being set up on. Without a Substitute for safety, Sandshrew is prone to be revenge killed by most special attackers, or something sporting a super effective attack from a high base attack. --- Alright, I've been up all night, and I'm only satisfied with the first set. I didnt actually notice that Shrew could learn Fling/Natural Gift until recently, so I havent been able to get a decent set including them. This is a WIP, so I still have a bit to go, mainly the counter section, but testing should help me out there. So, comment the current builds, introduce me to some new ones, fix errors and point at mistakes, etc etc. This space will be edited out when I'm a little more satisfied with this. Help is much needed and appreciated :< ~~ Fling Iron Ball is of 150 Base Power. - Chris Edited by Mr Escalator, Aug 10 2008, 04:51 AM.
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<TheMantyke> who needs education <TheMantyke> when you have <TheMantyke> Camerupt | |
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| tennisace | Jul 28 2008, 09:47 PM Post #2 |
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old school like Aztecs but new in other aspects
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Expand the counter's section a bit. Mention the different bulky waters/grounds that can counter it. Gligar does a great job, Mantyke does a great job. |
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| tgva8889 | Jul 29 2008, 02:00 AM Post #3 |
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Your counters section is incorrect: Pichu has a special move, but I see no manageable way that Pichu could counter Sandshrew. Therefore, your counters section is incorrect. Additionally, Igglybuff, Cleffa, and Happiny have special moves; they also probably have no capability of beating Sandshrew. Fling doesn't seem like a very decent option if you're wasting your item just to use it. It seems like a very bad idea, anyways. Additionally, Brick Break could be mentioned as another option on the first set, in case you didn't want to run Focus Punch. Flail might be able to make a viable set on its own. Since Sandshrew is immune to Sandstorm, he's slightly more able to attempt it, at the least. It's unfortunate his speed might not be enough to outspeed most things with a speed boost. |
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| Cooper | Jul 29 2008, 06:14 AM Post #4 |
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Smiles are free
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Serious tgva is serious. Stay away from the Weedle and Caterpie analyses please. The SD set needs to have a non-Trick Room variant as the standard, especially since it doesn't have ridiculously low speed. Remove all mention of filler attacks from OO. The only things that should be mentioned there are attacks that are useful in certain situations, such as Aerial Ace or Natural Gift. Slash and Shadow Claw are redundant as Night Slash has better type coverage and has the exact same BP and effect. |
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| Mr Escalator | Jul 29 2008, 06:20 AM Post #5 |
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Actually, my counter section isn't exactly wrong. Pichu, as it's your example, outspeeds Sandshrew and can hit it for around 123% of it's maximum health if it's modest specs with Hidden Power Ice. Igglybuff and Cleffa can do similar damage to the mouse. The only one that might not "counter" Sandshrew would be Happiny, which does damage in the 70's with a Base Special attack of 15 hidden power ice. It's also much slower. Though, I believe solar beam can become a 1hkO. You're nitpicking a section in progress. The "Anyone with a special attack" is filler for actual counters. It's close to the mark, though, as Sandshrew doesn't take special hits well in the slightest. Fling is a second option to night slash because it's not as reliable, but thats not to say it's without merit. Carrying an iron ball in a trick room team makes it fast, helping it stand out from other TR sweepers. Fling makes use of this with one powerful attack when TR runs out or you encounter a ghost. Without a swords dance under your belt, Night Slash will fail to 1hko misdreavus. Fling boosts this up into killing range, I believe (Cant test since shoddy is lame and has yet to implement them). It's a great one time attack, and you will typically encounter only one ghost per team. Neutral effectiveness fling with a swords dance leaves a huge dent in almost everything, and does a huge number on Zor, killing weakened ones with ease. Flail might work with Sub. Apparently Salac and a jolly nature puts Shrew up to a 21 speed range. I'll hammer out a set for that when I can. I'm also making a Support Shrew, making use of the few support moves Shrew is given. We'll see how that goes as well. @ Tennis Will do, I'm going to playtest the few sets and see what are common switch ins and how they do. I'll get to work on the counter section later. Thanks ![]() EDIT: Seriously, the counter sections is just where I left off. I had stayed up the whole night, and thats all I had by the end of it. I posted it and went off to dream land. So expect a real one >:O OO's will be edited as well when I start on the counters. I'll fix up that Swords set as well. Edited by Mr Escalator, Jul 29 2008, 06:24 AM.
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<TheMantyke> who needs education <TheMantyke> when you have <TheMantyke> Camerupt | |
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| Seven Deadly Sins | Jul 30 2008, 08:47 AM Post #6 |
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KD24 banned Tangela
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Fling is currently not implemented in Shoddy Battle, currently as is Iron Ball, so it's worth mentioning that people on Shoddy won't be able to use this combo. Bronzor is going to be the poke most likely to come into Shrew, as it can't hit it better than neutral, so it needs to be listed in counters. Put in Focus Punch as an option on the Choice Band set. Since CB is all about prediction (and power), a 27 attack 150 BP fighting move will definitely put a dent in anything that wants to come into Sandshrew (it hits Murkrow just as hard as Rock Slide, and hits Bronzor harder than anything it can pack otherwise- it also hits for the same power as a STAB Earthquake, so it's always a viable option to lead off with.) As always, HP Ice should go into Other Options to deal with Gligar, which pretty much walls every Shrew set ever. Scarf should never run less than 14 speed, as it loses the ability to outrun everything without a scarf- 19 speed isn't all that special, and turns ironclad outrunning of things like Abra (Energy Ball) and Staryu (STAB Surf, Ice Beam) into potentially fatal speed ties. Jolly Band is viable, but if you're slow, you don't really need speed- I'd say run 116 HP/236 Atk/156 Def on the Band set to increase your ability to come in on attacks. EDIT: Flail is a pretty stupid idea on things like Sandshrew, since Earthquake hits equally hard on pretty much everything. I guess Flail/EQ/Night Slash/Endure could potentially work, but there's really no reason to run it. The only things that should run Flail are things that either get STAB on it, such as Doduo or Eevee, or things that don't have more powerful alternatives, such as Goldeen or Magikarp (lol). Throw it in Other Options and have a good day. Edited by Seven Deadly Sins, Jul 30 2008, 08:54 AM.
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| Mr Escalator | Jul 31 2008, 12:30 PM Post #7 |
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Did a small update following your input, SDS. Is that a bit better? I haven't touched the counter section, and I've only messed with the other options slightly. I will fix those sometime, just wanted to get the other set down, focusing on support. Is that satisfactory? I'm unsure whether I like the set or not. The choice band set has worked pretty nicely for me, so I made the Beef Shrew set only CB, and CS as a consideration at the end of the comments. FP is great stuff, thanks. Any more comments on any of the sets, or a peer edit? I think my wording is a little weird in some places, but I don't know how I should tweak it. Thanks. |
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<TheMantyke> who needs education <TheMantyke> when you have <TheMantyke> Camerupt | |
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| Seven Deadly Sins | Jul 31 2008, 12:37 PM Post #8 |
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KD24 banned Tangela
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Much better, thanks. Scarf should be mentioned as a main choice on the Choice Shrew set (and you should rename it to that as a result), as anything that hits 14 speed is a potential candidate for being beastly with a Scarf. |
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| Chris | Aug 1 2008, 04:37 AM Post #9 |
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Abrasive Dick
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It's usually better to max HP then to max Defense, even if you don't plan on taking any Special hits. His HP stat is lower than the Defense stat, so try and favor that. |
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| Mr Escalator | Aug 1 2008, 09:34 AM Post #10 |
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You are not authorized to do this
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Sure! How does a spread of 196hp/236atk/76def sound for the standard? edit: Which puts his HP to the max of 24, his attack 17 or 18 depending on nature, and his defense either 16 or 17 depending on nature, for clarification. Edited by Mr Escalator, Aug 1 2008, 09:37 AM.
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<TheMantyke> who needs education <TheMantyke> when you have <TheMantyke> Camerupt | |
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| Seven Deadly Sins | Aug 1 2008, 09:52 AM Post #11 |
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KD24 banned Tangela
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Brick Break on the Swords Dance set doesn't hit anything harder than Earthquake, so Rock Slide should be the only option. (STAB EQ has 150 Base Power, SE Brick Break has 150 Base Power). That spread looks good, as it might help you survive random HP Ices from stuff that carries weak HP Ice for Gligar. Speaking of HP Ice, Gligar is a big problem for the Shrew, so on offensive sets, you might do well to use whatever the +Spe/-SpD nature is and pack HP Ice to hit it hard. A SubSalac set might be nice, as anything that can get a free boost to 21 Speed and start hitting hard is good in my book, especially with that awesome unresisted type coverage. |
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| Mr Escalator | Aug 10 2008, 04:55 AM Post #12 |
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Ok, small update. Added a counters section, though I would like suggestions on what else to add. EV's section added as well, and it mentions a SubSalac set, though that is to be added. I plan on re-doing the opinion and the wording on some sets. Oh, and the other options will see an update. So, give me some more feedback : D |
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<TheMantyke> who needs education <TheMantyke> when you have <TheMantyke> Camerupt | |
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| Iraff | Aug 10 2008, 01:44 PM Post #13 |
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Perpetual Nudity
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Just so you know, you wouldn't use a semi-colon there. It would just be a colon. |
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| eric the espeon | Aug 13 2008, 02:39 PM Post #14 |
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This looks mostly good... I don't think Brightpowder really deserves a mention on the first two sets, a almost 50% healing nearly every game is worth much more than an extra small chance (10% without Sand, 8% with) of dodging every attack. The only time I can see it getting ANY use is in SS repeatedly subbing to get a FP in, however the extra health from Oran will give you a better chance so even then it is not the best option. Also see a few small errors (lack of/extra caps, minor things like that) so could you go over it and check for errors. Edited by eric the espeon, Aug 13 2008, 02:41 PM.
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| Cooper | Aug 13 2008, 06:49 PM Post #15 |
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Smiles are free
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Even if it's not in the set itself, Brightpowder definitely deserves a mention somewhere. After the disappointment of Gible, it's good to have some pokemon that can Brightveil, and Gligar definitely has better things to do. |
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7:23 PM Jul 11