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Koffing
Topic Started: Jul 16 2008, 02:48 AM (3,511 Views)
Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

First, use spell check, there are a lot of simple spelling mistakes.

On the first set, Sludge Bomb should be over Shadow Ball and Payback since both have shitty coverage and so the extra power from STAB is beneficial.

I see no reason for a Rain set, if the only benefit that Koffing gets from it is an accurate Thunder (which is less powerful than Sludge Bomb anyway).

You do not need mention of flawless IVs since 99.999*%(which is equal to 100% for all you non-mathematicians) of LC players will play on Shoddy.

A shuffler set is pretty redundant and reeks of Toxic, Protect, Rest, Wrap Shuckle. In LC, pokemon take little damage from SR and Toxic Spikes are very rare. Shuffling has little purpose. Furthermore, pretty much everything will outspeed Koffing so Staryu, Gastly, Buizel whatever will hit you hard after before the Swagger and switch out the next turn for another pokemon to hit it hard. It's not even like you have pain split either :/

Without being rude, the Spite set is pretty stupid, you waste time stalling out their PP, only to explode on them???

As for EVs I don't think you grasp that what Koffing does best is to take physical hits, sure other pokemon do it better, but does it mean that because Garchomp attacks better than Dragonite that Dragonite shouldn't use an attacking set? Just max defence EVs.
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Acredula
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Chris
Jul 17 2008, 05:06 AM
I'd strongly suggest changing this. Surely not everyone in all of Little Cup can be wrong but you.
Actually, it's happened before. =P And it's not's "wrong" but it's more like more than one "right" if that made any sense; two rights and x amount of wrongs.

Mantyke, Pain Split is pretty useless unless I'm against Munchlax. You probably could run a Toxic / Pain Split / Protect / Filler Oran Berry Max Def/MaxHP/leftoverSp. Def to deal with Munchlax, but I wouldn't try it. Munchlax is countered easily enough as it is.

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I'm not really sure a section about overall harm is called for, because as Chris said, you're not introducing a completely new concept here. You're applying it to a particular pokemon, but that in no way makes it exclusive to Koffing.

I know. But there's no reason it isn't called for. If overall harm is something useful to Koffing, why not put it in? We can just take it out once we move it to smogon or whatever. Or someone can post a guide about Overall Harm in Little Cup (preferably not Dixie or Cooper xD).

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There's nothing wrong with listing an ability when you only have one. I do it in all my analyses. It's just when you list completely superfluous information that the problem comes in.

Superfluous information such as...?

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Sorry if I came across as disrespectful, I was just getting into the debate. I enjoy arguing. No, if you want to see me being disrespectful, go to the second page of the Machop analysis. Chris and I really get into it.

No, I was only joking about the apologizing thing. I like arguing too, but when I have 20+ people gang up on my (to put it mildly) it gets a little difficult. People don't seem to understand the concept of testing when they debate with me. I don't know why.

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First, use spell check, there are a lot of simple spelling mistakes

This coming from the person that says defence? xD j/k I'll run it under spell check. I make typos frequently. I know there was one about the Oran berry...I think i said 25 HP and 40% instead of 23 and 43%.

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On the first set, Sludge Bomb should be over Shadow Ball and Payback since both have shitty coverage and so the extra power from STAB is beneficial.

Payback is the only way you'll ever get past Misdreavus, and you get past her pretty well. But I can list it as the primary option. The problem with Sludge Bomb is that you won't hit anything Flamethrower doesn't already hit. Sure, the extra power is nice, but when it comes off as NVE it's pretty redundant. But I'll replace Shadow Ball for it.

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I see no reason for a Rain set, if the only benefit that Koffing gets from it is an accurate Thunder (which is less powerful than Sludge Bomb anyway).

And a 30% chance of paralysis, and provides team support by walling all those annoying grass types and smacking them in the face with a STAB Sludge Bomb. But if you're against my long analyses I'll simply mention it in Other Options.

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You do not need mention of flawless IVs since 99.999*%(which is equal to 100% for all you non-mathematicians) of LC players will play on Shoddy.

Kk. I can understand that. And Competitor when it comes out, if they're still working on that.

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A shuffler set is pretty redundant and reeks of Toxic, Protect, Rest, Wrap Shuckle. In LC, pokemon take little damage from SR and Toxic Spikes are very rare. Shuffling has little purpose. Furthermore, pretty much everything will outspeed Koffing so Staryu, Gastly, Buizel whatever will hit you hard after before the Swagger and switch out the next turn for another pokemon to hit it hard. It's not even like you have pain split either :/

Last time I checked, it's all about the %, and Gligar cann set up Spikes (I think). Maybe just Swagger then?

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Without being rude, the Spite set is pretty stupid, you waste time stalling out their PP, only to explode on them???

That was pretty rude. Spite to stall out something like Sucker Punch or a choice attack (EQ or something) whatever, switch out, come back in whenever, and blow up. It would be pretty stupid to blow up after wasting countless turns using Spite and slowly draining their PP. But it is very gimmicky, as things do hit harder than in OU.

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As for EVs I don't think you grasp that what Koffing does best is to take physical hits, sure other pokemon do it better, but does it mean that because Garchomp attacks better than Dragonite that Dragonite shouldn't use an attacking set? Just max defence EVs.

Yeah, but you can't really compare attacking and defending. And did you read the compromise I put in the nice list at all?

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Oh dear God, you're making it longer?[/sarcasm]

I love long. You should see my rants.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

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I know. But there's no reason it isn't called for. If overall harm is something useful to Koffing, why not put it in? We can just take it out once we move it to smogon or whatever. Or someone can post a guide about Overall Harm in Little Cup (preferably not Dixie or Cooper xD).


How about we don't and... say we didn't? You see, it's like putting in an "overall harm" section on every Pokémon. Fuck, we shouldn't even list your EV set in this.

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Payback is the only way you'll ever get past Misdreavus, and you get past her pretty well. But I can list it as the primary option. The problem with Sludge Bomb is that you won't hit anything Flamethrower doesn't already hit. Sure, the extra power is nice, but when it comes off as NVE it's pretty redundant. But I'll replace Shadow Ball for it.


Koffing is OHKO'd after a Calm Mind with Shadow Ball. Just another example of why you shouldn't take special hits with Koffing.

Spite is retarded. It sucks in OU on Spiritomb, how would it work in a FASTER PACED environment?

I still don't think you should be doing this, you know. But you're starting to compromise a little, I guess.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Acredula
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Chris
 
I still don't think you should be doing this, you know. But you're starting to compromise a little, I guess.

T_T

Have you read the entire topic? I've introduced two compromises.

And there was no need for the "F" bomb in there. xP

And and about the payback thing, you won't be going first against much, so it's just as good as Sludge Bomb. But, once again, I'll still list it.

The only problem I'm starting to have with you guys (some of you) is that you can't seem to grasp the fact that there can be more than one "right".

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How about we don't and... say we didn't? You see, it's like putting in an "overall harm" section on every Pokémon. Fuck, we shouldn't even list your EV set in this.

No, actually it isn't.
Which one? The ones that actually work or the ones that haven't been listed that don't work? I did test this, y'know.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

We know basic concepts like "more than one right". What we can't seem to grasp is that you insist that YOU are the authority on Pokémon and even when EVERY OTHER poster on this thread tells you otherwise you barely compromise as long as you get to plug a stupid concept that doesn't make sense in Little Cup since "PHYSICAL WALLS" have to specialize to take hits.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Cooper
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Smiles are free

Acredula, there's no reason why you can't have two spreads. Max defense in the main one, and put "your spread" in Other Options. Seriously, you don't need to emphasize your spread to get your point across. Just say something like "If you want to use Koffing as more of a utility pokemon than defensive wall, use this spread." Here's a link to my Cranidos analysis. Look at the Scarf set, than to the EVs section and you'll see what I mean. I please the people who run 252/252 spreads mindlessly, and I get my point across. Done.
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Seven Deadly Sins
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KD24 banned Tangela

If you want to mention a "personal set" that works for you, go to the "interesting movesets" topic instead of making your idea of a wall the one that's the most important. Koffing is what it is- a physical wall with great defense, mediocre HP, and the ability to stop a couple key threats. It does not wall special attacks. It doesn't wall mixed attackers. It takes a couple hard physical hits like a champ and threatens with stuff like TBolt and Sludge Bomb. When it's done, it explodes.

Overall Harm is a horrible idea on Koffing. Blissey has the caveat that her special walling ability is so over-the-top that she can run purely physically defensive EVs and still wall the hell out of anything special-based. Koffing, however, doesn't have that option. By pumping up his ability to take special hits, you deprive it of its ability to take physical hits. Skarmory is the best analogy in OU. It works best with a 252/252+ spread because its first and most important ability is to wall the hell out of physical threats. If you put its EVs in Special Defense, it loses its ability to wall physically, and therefore loses its most important capability and becomes useless, only for a slightly increased ability to take special hits. Koffing's the same way. You don't have to pack coverage for Misdreavus, as it's gonna win 100% of the time whether or not you pack Payback or special defense EVs. It's a losing proposition anyway. The only things Koffing needs the coverage to threaten are the things that it excels at walling. It's not a sweeper, it's a wall that has a specific purpose. Any other use is purely gimmick (though that anti-lead is pretty sex).

As for the Rain Setup, I like it. Koffing does get a boost from the rain, as well as the surprise factor that comes from Koffing setting up said rain- when I see Koffing, I don't exactly see Rain Dance first, whereas with something like Voltorb, I can kinda see what's coming.
Kannon
 
SDS, Ice resists Water. Ground doesn't resist Rock.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

That and Koffing resists Grass, one of Water's main weaknesses (and there's no Grass Absorber like Chinchou). Rain Koffing's staying for sure.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Acredula
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Cooper
Jul 18 2008, 05:24 AM
Acredula, there's no reason why you can't have two spreads. Max defense in the main one, and put "your spread" in Other Options. Seriously, you don't need to emphasize your spread to get your point across. Just say something like "If you want to use Koffing as more of a utility pokemon than defensive wall, use this spread." Here's a link to my Cranidos analysis. Look at the Scarf set, than to the EVs section and you'll see what I mean. I please the people who run 252/252 spreads mindlessly, and I get my point across. Done.
OH. MY. GOD. That is exactly what I've been suggesting. Stop skimming my long posts people! T_T Have any or you bother to read my compromises?

That specific purpose is to counter common Pokémon such as Murkrow.

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...and the ability to stop a couple key threats.

Thank-you for finally reading my posts. <.<
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It does not wall special attacks. It doesn't wall mixed attackers. It takes a couple hard physical hits like a champ and threatens with stuff like TBolt and Sludge Bomb. When it's done, it explodes.

It doesn't wall them, but it needs to be able to take a hit from them if it happens to be a mixed attacker. Otherwise, Koffing is totally spat. That would be why I proposed a compromise EV spread which has not yet been touched upon by anyone. See second page.

And for the Skarmory counterexample, it's pretty much dead weight with Magnezone running around everywhere. Sorry. There is no surefire Koffing counter like Magnezone is to Skarm.
Edited by Acredula, Jul 19 2008, 03:43 PM.
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Seven Deadly Sins
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KD24 banned Tangela

Yeah, but you have unparalleled arrogance in calling your own homegrown set the "Standard" set. Just because you have a better spread that works for you doesn't mean everyone wants to use it. I use a Mantyke and a Koffing on my team- Mantyke walls just fine, and Koffing doesn't need to take special hits. Just put the 252/252 or whatever in and then throw your "superior" set into EVs.
Kannon
 
SDS, Ice resists Water. Ground doesn't resist Rock.
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Acredula
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Seven Deadly Sins
Jul 19 2008, 04:28 PM
Yeah, but you have unparalleled arrogance in calling your own homegrown set the "Standard" set. Just because you have a better spread that works for you doesn't mean everyone wants to use it. I use a Mantyke and a Koffing on my team- Mantyke walls just fine, and Koffing doesn't need to take special hits. Just put the 252/252 or whatever in and then throw your "superior" set into EVs.
They're not superior. It's of equal or lesser value. See EV section. I just use it to be cautious.
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Seven Deadly Sins
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KD24 banned Tangela

Then don't call it the standard, god damnit. It really isn't. The standard is the physical wall, and there's no getting around it. If you want to mention some hybrid special defender, then so be it, but mention it in Other Options or EVs or something else.
Kannon
 
SDS, Ice resists Water. Ground doesn't resist Rock.
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Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

Pluck does double damage avec un berry so your calcs are off unfortunately. Also, try to avoid things like "my personal set" or "Dixie's set" or whatever
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Acredula
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Fixed.

Mag, feel free to dissect my analysis.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

Don't bold attack names, ever. I thought we went over this. Also, try to talk about how one uses the Pokémon as well as what each attack does.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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