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Koffing
Topic Started: Jul 16 2008, 02:48 AM (3,512 Views)
Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

Quote:
 
People care about overall harm. Just because it's a "new" concept doesn't mean it isn't important.

No-one uses overall harm to EV a pokemon AS I HAVE SAID already.

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That's because we already know what works best on Skarmory, and because Skarmory is the premier physical wall of choice.

And we know what works best on Koffing, fulfilling its role in taking physical hits therefore needs a lot of defence EVs to maximise its ability.

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Koffing is BL because he's outclassed by Gligar, Bronzor and the like. If anything, compare it to Donphan, who is meant to attack and defend. Should you use Overall Harm for Donphan? Yeah, it would be a good idea.

Donphan's Attack and Defence bases are BOTH equal, 120 each. Koffing has significantly more Defence than SpAtk, 95 to 60. Is it not therefore obvious that Koffing is meant to wall. Have a look at the Smogon analysis for Donphan too, and tell me if there are any special defence EVs.
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Except that Donphan isn't meant to disrupt like Koffing is. Weezing, on the other hand, it. Should you use Overall Harm for Weezing? Most certainly. It's because people try to compare Little Cup to OU and say they're the same, and the problem is, they aren't. The Pokémon are different, the threats are different, etc, etc.

What are you talking about?
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LOL! I put height in there? My mistake. National Number is good for just a quick glance. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be in there.

Don't clutter the analysis with useless info. I am trying to make an LC team, do I need to know Koffing is the Poison Gas pokemon?
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In case you've momentarily forgotton, LC is a ghost heavy metagame. They're everywhere. CB Mankey isn't such a problem. I already did Machop. Pokémon like Gligar are better suited for those things anyways. Koffing is meant to disrupt, and it needs to be able to defend itself in the process. It's not Skarmory, it's not Giratina, it's not Bronzor and it certainly isn't Clefable either.

Ghost heavy with about 3 Ghost types in OU. Yeah Right. Maybe I don't want my team to be torn apart by Murkrow, maybe I'll use Koffing. That's stupid logic, that because there are Ghost-types CBMankey isnt a problem, as if all teams HAVE to use Ghost types. What do you mean by "disrupt", Koffing's purpose is to wall physical threats, e.g. Gligar, Machop, Diglett etc therefore it needs Def EVs. Is that at all hard to understand?[/quote]
Edited by Dixie, Jul 16 2008, 07:43 PM.
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Acredula
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Oh my. This could go on for a while.

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No-one uses overall harm to EV a pokemon AS I HAVE SAID already.

Well apperantly THIS PERSON DOES, and apperantly X-Act does too. I don't see why I wouldn't use Overall Harm to EV my Bronzor, or my Gligar, or my Munchlax, for that matter. Isn't reducing the damage one takes a good thing?

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And we know what works best on Koffing, fulfilling its role in taking physical hits therefore needs a lot of defence EVs to maximise its ability.

Really? How many times have you tested Koffing? I won't guess for you, because I'm very certain you already know. And I don't call having one less stat point a lot less. I ran a 196 Hp, 76 Atk, 236 Def Relaxed Koffing and failed miserably to the first Vacuum Wave I came across. I also failed to the first Waterfall I came across (57%, if I remember correctly). So don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. The Little Cup is still developing. The tiers haven't even settled yet. Are you against exploring now things that might result in the better of the Little Cup Metagame?

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Donphan's Attack and Defence bases are BOTH equal, 120 each. Koffing has significantly more Defence than SpAtk, 95 to 60. Is it not therefore obvious that Koffing is meant to wall. Have a look at the Smogon analysis for Donphan too, and tell me if there are any special defence EVs.

I'm sorry, are you with me or against me? The period means you could ask that "question" in many different ways. Give it another wack. ^.~ And while you're at it, look at the example above where I clearly demonstrated that Koffing needs at least some Sp. Def EVs.

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What are you talking about?

You know very well. I'm pretty sure you're older than me, probably a good reader, well educated, maybe out of HS, and probably a good debater by the looks of of it. And one things good debaters do is avoid the things that they can't counter; pretend they simply weren't there at all. You know very well what I'm talking about. Does Weezing disrupt? Yes. Does Weezing wall physical attackers? Some of them. Since Weezing walls some physical attackers, wouldn't it be wise to minimize the amount of damage Weezing takes so it can keep doing such a task? Yes it would. And how do you do that? With the Overall Harm formula. Now, I am by no means suggesting that we run an Overall Harm check on everything single Pokémon in the metagame and distribute their EVs for such a purpose: that would be plain stupid. Some Pokémon are meant for such a purpose, like Koffing. Others, like Murkrow, have no use for anything of such.

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Don't clutter the analysis with useless info. I am trying to make an LC team, do I need to know Koffing is the Poison Gas pokemon?

No, but it's pretty childish of you to make such a big deal out of it. Unless it's somehow degrading the value of the analysis there's no reason it should be taken out.

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Ghost heavy with about 3 Ghost types in OU. Yeah Right. Maybe I don't want my team to be torn apart by Murkrow, maybe I'll use Koffing. That's stupid logic, that because there are Ghost-types CBMankey isnt a problem, as if all teams HAVE to use Ghost types. What do you mean by "disrupt", Koffing's purpose is to wall physical threats, e.g. Gligar, Machop, Diglett etc therefore it needs Def EVs. Is that at all hard to understand?

It's apperantly not stupid enough for you to mention that it's stupid. It must be worth your time to mention such a thing. =P
Once again, don't avoid things. When you quote the entire paragraph, make sure you address every single part of the paragraph.
No, all teams don't have to use Ghost types. I don't use ghost types, but I'm fine with CB mankey. Is Koffing my primary counter? Certainly not. I might explode on it, but only an idiot would actually switch in Koffing. I don't have a "counter" for CB Mankey, but my Koffing revenge kills it well with Thunderbolt, Will-o-Wisp and Explosion, even with that minimal investment in Sp. Def.
What I meant by "Little Cup is a ghost heavy metagame" is they they're everywhere. I could also say "Little Cup is a Chinchou heavy metagame" which, once again, it is. In at least every other battle I see a Gastly or a Misdreavus, or maybe even both (and don't even start on how only an idiot would use both in the same team, we're perfectly aware).
By Disrupt, I mean Koffing disrupts. Let's define disrupt:
to cause disorder or turmoil in
Doesn't Koffing do that by exploding, burning opponents, and possibly paralyzing them? I understand it doesn't get Knock Off, but it does get a lot of status moves and Explosion.
Furthermore, as I have simply stated several hundred times, other Pokémon make better physical walls. Gligar has better typing, better options, and better stats. Bronzor has better stats and can actually Toxi-stall, set up Screens, set up SR, etc. Koffing can't. And yet you still insist that Koffing is used to wall other fighting Pokémon when other's clearly do it better? Koffing, like Weezing, serves as a counter to certain Pokémon and when it isn't countering (ergo: said Pokémon isn't on opponent's team) it's disrupting.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

I had to commit the edit to my previous post a good 3 hours later, but OVERALL HARM IS NOT A NEW CONCEPT. A PHYSICAL WALL SHOULD FIRST FOCUS ON TAKING PHYSICAL HITS. DIXIE IS NOT AN IDIOT AND YOU ARE NOT REVOLUTIONARY FOR "INTRODUCTING" OVERALL HARM

Oh, yeah, read my previous posts. Koffing is a bad NP Croagunk counter.
Edited by Chris, Jul 16 2008, 08:52 PM.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
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Cooper
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Okay, let's settle. Here's what I want to know Acredula: overall harm seems like an interesting mechanic, and one that could help quite a bit. In OU. The problem with using a formula to toy with you EVs is that EVs are not so easily manipulated in LC as they are in standard. 196 EVs need to be used in many situations to give what 8-12 will give you in OU. So you can't exactly say that Koffing just needs two more special defense points, when doing so will require a minimum of 76 EVs.

Besides that, what's the point of sacrificing your best stat to survive random hits from the special side? You're upset because your physical wall lost to a NPer with high special attack already? Should we be surprised by this? Is it possible that you could have used another team member to deal with this threat? No pokemon is a team on its own. If Koffing can afford to only partially invest in defense while still fulfilling its role as a physical wall, then by all means, invest. But if doing so means that you halve your effectiveness to Explode on a Croagunk, one pokemon out of 166, then that's not ingenuity; that's retarded.
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Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Acredula
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Chris
Jul 16 2008, 08:52 PM
I had to commit the edit to my previous post a good 3 hours later, but OVERALL HARM IS NOT A NEW CONCEPT. A PHYSICAL WALL SHOULD FIRST FOCUS ON TAKING PHYSICAL HITS. DIXIE IS NOT AN IDIOT AND YOU ARE NOT REVOLUTIONARY FOR "INTRODUCTING" OVERALL HARM
As mentioned, Overall Harm is not a new concept. But apperantly for all of you who didn't know about it, it is "new."

Yes, and Koffing is not a physical wall. Koffing is a counter to several Pokémon that might harm a team. You can run Koffing as a physical wall. But apperantly neither side had come to the conclusion that we could just stick a physical wall set in there or move the Overall Harm EVs to the EVs sections.

I have already aknowledged that, and I don't recall calling Dixie an idiot. I realize it was a little rude to say childish, but in no way did I ever mean idiot. Someone who can debate about something like this with me for this long certainly doesn't deserve to be called an "idiot."

Finally, I did not "Introduce" it. I don't want to have introduiced any such thing.

Chris, I kind of figured that out in our battle. Um..yeah. Never try that one again

Quote:
 
Okay, let's settle. Here's what I want to know Acredula: overall harm seems like an interesting mechanic, and one that could help quite a bit. In OU. The problem with using a formula to toy with you EVs is that EVs are not so easily manipulated in LC as they are in standard. 196 EVs need to be used in many situations to give what 8-12 will give you in OU. So you can't exactly say that Koffing just needs two more special defense points, when doing so will require a minimum of 76 EVs.

Besides that, what's the point of sacrificing your best stat to survive random hits from the special side? You're upset because your physical wall lost to a NPer with high special attack already? Should we be surprised by this? Is it possible that you could have used another team member to deal with this threat? No pokemon is a team on its own. If Koffing can afford to only partially invest in defense while still fulfilling its role as a physical wall, then by all means, invest. But if doing so means that you halve your effectiveness to Explode on a Croagunk, one pokemon out of 166, then that's not ingenuity; that's retarded.


What do you want to know? xD You never specified.

I think there's some kind of misunderstanding here, and it might be on my own part. First of all, how many mixed sweepers or Pokémon with attacks from both sides of the spectum are there in LC? Quite a few, Koffing is one of them. Why? Because base stats make little difference in LC. I'm not upset. It was called a test, or as I like to call it, an oppertinity (vain, yes I am). And, my oppertunity apperantly failed, and I've diagnosed that failure as not enough Sp. Def.

Yes, I did use another team member to deal with the threat. That is why I said it did not sweep my entire team. I had a staryu waiting in the wings for Explosion or Koffing's downfall: preferably Explosion. But remember this was the 196/76/236 Koffing you and Dixie suggested, not mine.

What do you mean if doing so halves my effectiveness to explode on Croagunk? Following your suggestion disabled my ability to explode on said Croagunk.

The EV spread was made for a compromise, not for inguinity.

And don't use retarded. It's a very immature, offensive and stereotypical word. Use lame, stupid or something else.
Edited by Acredula, Jul 16 2008, 09:09 PM.
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Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

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Well apperantly THIS PERSON DOES, and apperantly X-Act does too. I don't see why I wouldn't use Overall Harm to EV my Bronzor, or my Gligar, or my Munchlax, for that matter. Isn't reducing the damage one takes a good thing?

X-Act doesn't even play pokemon competitively. Overall harm is nothing more than a theoretical model. No-one uses it competitively.

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Really? How many times have you tested Koffing? I won't guess for you, because I'm very certain you already know. And I don't call having one less stat point a lot less. I ran a 196 Hp, 76 Atk, 236 Def Relaxed Koffing and failed miserably to the first Vacuum Wave I came across. I also failed to the first Waterfall I came across (57%, if I remember correctly).

Considering you have a set you copied from me in the analysis and there's a warstory of me using Koffing...And what do you mean by failed miserably against a Vacuum Wave, unless you let Croagunk get 3 Nasty Plots or something and by the way, have you ever thought that Koffing isn't meant to switch into boosted Waterfalls???


Koffing is a physical wall, and it needs Def EVs for it to efficiently carry out its purpose. It is not a "disrupter", Explosion is a last resort, not a pokemon's main aim. My Skarmory was OHKOed by a Thunderbolt, oh noes, I need to give it SpD EVs. Perhaps you shouldn't leave Skarmory, or Koffing in this case, in on pokemon that it isn't meant to wall. [/duh]
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squirtleboy12
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Dixie
Jul 16 2008, 08:59 PM



Quoting limited to 1 levels deep[/duh]
the differnce betwen skarmmony and koffing is that this is little cup we are talking about you can invest special defense evs and stilll get 2ohko or 3ohko by the same physical attacks.I battled against acredula a couple of times and those s.def evs let it survive against walls who use special attacks but theres special attack isnt that high.Koffin can be used as a physical wall who can take special hits prety nice but not exeptional.blissey is an example of this why invest in blissey's defense if you can invested in soecial defense and hp to help against nasty plotters or pokemon who like to set up by using special attacks..dosnt blissey stats suggest you that its a special wall?why give blissey def evs then..its the exact same thing,koffing is 3ohko and 2ohko by nearly every physicall attacker despite difference in evs so why invest in somethig thats going to end up making little difference instead of giving it a chance to take pokemon such as croagunk.now if you tell me an important pokemon that can change the way koffing is handle lets say a 2ohko instead of a 1ohko by the use of one attack then this will change but till now i dont see the difference of giving koffing a little s.def boost.
Edited by squirtleboy12, Jul 16 2008, 09:19 PM.
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Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

Erm Blissey is extremely different to Koffing. If Koffing had 255 HP and 135 Defence, then SpD EVs would make sense, but it doesn't.

I don't want to gang up on Acredula, and I've been a bit stroppy so I apologize to Acredula (doesn't mean I've changed my mind though)
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Chris
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To be honest, I do use overall harm when I have like 60 EVs left over on something in OU. It's not a bad idea if you want to take hits well from both sides. But that's not what Koffing is for.

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Chris, I kind of figured that out in our battle. Um..yeah. Never try that one again

What are you talking about?
Edited by Chris, Jul 16 2008, 09:35 PM.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
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Cooper
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squirtleboy, that analogy is incorrect. The pokemon you're thinking of is Onix, who has such massive defense anyway that it's redundant to invest EVs. Koffing, while its defense is rather high, is nowhere near exceptional, certainly not to the point where you can forgo EVs and rely solely on your base stat.
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Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Acredula
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Chris
Jul 16 2008, 09:35 PM
To be honest, I do use overall harm when I have like 60 EVs left over on something in OU. It's not a bad idea if you want to take hits well from both sides. But that's not what Koffing is for.

You should. =P That's why I introduced the compromise, which was either skipped by everyone or ridiculed or misunderstood due to the nature of my posts. Oh well.

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What are you talking about?
LOL, I was referring to the bottom part of your post. Sorry, it's getting late over here. The part about Koffing not countering Croagunk. I switched into a Nasty Plot, and meant to explode, but it did ~1 more HP than I had. Therefore, had I had one more Sp. Def EV (because I was running 11 Sp. Def and 20 Def) I would have survived, exploded, and either won or have come a lot closer to winning. That's a justification on the Sp. Def EVs.

Well, in OU Blissey needs to invest in HP and Def, but in Ubers she definitely needs Sp. Def. But Little Cup is as far away from ubers as it gets. But thanks for your support Squirtleboy.

Actually, come to think of it, things hit harder in LC than they do in OU. Seriously, think about it. In OU, Blissey stops special attackers completely, but in LC, munchlax still takes a decent amount of damage. I KO'd someone's Munchlax (forget who's) with Ponyta's Flamethrower (before you ask, it's a mixed lead to suprise some Pokémon): Munchlax took about 19% most of the time, which I took ~33% on average from CB Pursuit. I had already weakened it, and Blissey certainly is never choiced, but that's beside the point. Things hit harder in Little Cup because we lack the needed defenses to stand up to those attacks.

Oh, my, did I just help or hurt myself? Or both...I wonder. Oh well. This whole debate is pointless enough as it is. ^^

Quote:
 
I don't want to gang up on Acredula, and I've been a bit stroppy so I apologize to Acredula (doesn't mean I've changed my mind though)

Thank-you. I took some time to do my "job" (walk a few dogs =D) so we could both blow off a bit of steam. I've been a little rude myself.
Cooper, apologize to me!! lol
Stroppy? *looks up* New Word! ^.^ I thank you sincerely. lol
xD Loved the paranthesis.

So, let's try this thing called a compromise again. Here's what I suggest. You're the admin, so what you decide in the end is what happens (please don't be mean. I put up a good fight which I will continue if necessary).


  1. I rewrite the Koffing analysis (I was intending to do that anyway because it's too short: Shroomish too) and do the following things: Move my two EV sets to the EV section of the analysis and replace them with the "better" one that focuses on Koffing's better stats.
  2. The "useless" info at the top has already been removed.
  3. The IVs have already been removed
  4. The ability section of each set could be removed. It's just there so some idiot doesn't walk up to you and ask why there isn't an ability listed. It's happened before. >.>
  5. I add a section concerning Overall Harm and how it relates to Koffing after Counters.


Sound fair everyone?
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TheMantyke
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Okay, that looks fine to me. Just rewrite the whole analysis as noone in the right mind wants to use a Physical Wall without first maximizing there potential to actually take physical hits.

When Re-writing this by the way, take off some of the options on the spite set. There are WAY too many slashes.


From this point onwards, I'm just replying to what acredula has posted; Very off topic.

About your Munchlax comment: Blissey and Munchlax don't have much in common. Compare Munchlax to Snorlax in OU who takes hefty damage from many special assaults. Little cup doesn't have a "Special wall to end all Special walls".

Now for your Ponyta story, this is going to be painful. I'll be a man and step up to say that I was the person being described in the story with the Munchlax. I was stupid enough to forget I was even running a Choice set and thought I was running a standard wall set, just waiting for an Oran Berry to activate.

The point is, I was just acting like an idiot and you shouldn't use that as helpful battle experience. Any alert player would of just Earthquaked you to death.

EDIT: I might not have terminology right but it's definitely a pokemon designed to take physical assaults!

Also, I'm not completely sure of it's use in little cup, but maybe painsplit deserves a mention somewere
Edited by TheMantyke, Jul 17 2008, 03:16 AM.
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Acredula
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For the last time, Koffing is not a physical wall. Ge that right, people. It can function as a physical wall, but that isn't the best way to use it.

About the slashes, those are just the options present. Unless you want me to mention them in the comments and only put the reccomended ones on the set. But I agree with you, I absolutely hate those slashes.

I don't think that CB Munchlax is all that bad, actually. Unless you slapped a CB on the standard set, in which case is still helpful to show how something that's not meant to use special attacks can actually decently damage a special wall/sponge.

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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

For the last time, yes he is. Also, the Blissey analogy really doesn't apply for two reasons. First, Blissey is the exception to the rule in having so much Special Defense and HP that she can leave the stats untouched. Second, people run 252 Def / 176 SDef Calm Blisseys now anyway.

I'd strongly suggest changing this. Surely not everyone in all of Little Cup can be wrong but you.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Cooper
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Oh dear God, you're making it longer?[/sarcasm] I'm not really sure a section about overall harm is called for, because as Chris said, you're not introducing a completely new concept here. You're applying it to a particular pokemon, but that in no way makes it exclusive to Koffing.

There's nothing wrong with listing an ability when you only have one. I do it in all my analyses. It's just when you list completely superfluous information that the problem comes in.

I still want separate paragraphs in the Set Comments. You're trying to make this longer, right? [/more jokes]

Sorry if I came across as disrespectful, I was just getting into the debate. I enjoy arguing. No, if you want to see me being disrespectful, go to the second page of the Machop analysis. Chris and I really get into it.
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Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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