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Koffing
Topic Started: Jul 16 2008, 02:48 AM (3,510 Views)
Acredula
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Koffing, The Poison Gas Pokémon
National No: 109
Ability: Levitate - Moves with the GROUND as their type do not damage this Pokémon. This Pokémon takes no damage from Spikes and cannot be trapped by Pokémon with Arena Trap.
Type: Poison
Weight: 2.0 lbs
Code:
 
Stat-base-min--min--max--max+
HP---40---N/A--20---23---N/A
Atk--65---11---13---16---17
Def--95---14---16---19---20
SpA--60---10---12---15---16
SpD--45---09---11---14---15
Spe--35---08---10---13---14


[SET]
Name: Standard
~ Explosion
~ Thunderbolt / Flamethrower
~ Will-o-Wisp
~ Sludge Bomb / Payback
Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Relaxed (+ Def, - Spd)
Evs: 196 Hp, 76 (Sp.) Atk 236 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

Thunderbolt is the first move, giving you an electric attack to use against Murkrow, whom you counter very well. Thunderbolt is pretty useful if you happen to run into Mantyke or a flying type. If your team is fraught of electric moves, Flamethrower serves as another attack to deal with steel types, who wall you otherwise. Bronzor, Aron, Sheildon, etc are all examples of Pokémon Koffing can't get around without Flamethrower. Will-o-Wisp is a great utility move to use against anything that doesn't have Guts (and even if they do have Guts they'll possibly be holding a Toxic Orb anyway). For final coverage against the random Ghost types that endlessly haunt Koffing, Payback has been proffered for Koffing's use. If you want to take advantage of Koffing's actual STAB, Sludge Bomb is wonderful as well, as hitting anything with a 135 BP move after STAB hurts in LC more than it does in Standard. Explosion is a no-brainer to use, clearing the field of many threats to your team and to Koffing itself. Only use it against something that seriously poses a threat to you. Sp. Atk EVs are recommended when using Sludge Bomb.

Damage Calcs For Payback
Koffing: 13 Atk

Max Sp. Atk Timid Gastly Shadow Ball: 73.91% - 86.96%
Koffing's Payback: 68.42% - 84.21% (x2)

Payback will be an OHKO on Gastly while Oran Berry has a large chance of activating, giving Koffing over half his health.

Max Sp. Atk Timid Misdreavus Shadow Ball: 69.57% - 82.61%
Koffing's Payback: 50.00% - 59.09% (x2)

Koffing's Payback is still an OHKO. Note that after a CM Misdreavus will always OHKO you with Shadow Ball.

Max Attack Jolly Totodile Waterfall: 39.13% - 47.83%
Koffing's Payback: 23.81% - 28.57% (x2)

Pretty Easy 2KO. IF you're unlucky and Koffing decides to do min. damage twice you won't 2KO before it OHKOs.

Max Attack Jolly Elekid Thunderpunch: 39.13% - 47.83%
Koffing's Payback: 28.57% - 33.33% (x2)

Definite 2KO.

[SET]
Name: Rain
~ Explosion
~ Thunder
~ Sludge Bomb
~ Rain Dance / Payback
Item: Damp Rock / Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Relaxed (+ Def, - Spd)
Evs: 196 Hp, 76 (Sp.) Atk, 236 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

Koffing works very well in the Rain, taking Grass-typed assaults like a champ while firing back STAB Sludge Bombs of his own. Explosion is there again for the extreme usefulness it poses to Koffing, as a 250 Base Power attack coming off of (admittedly, rather low) 14 attack stat is a force to be reckoned with. Under the rain, Thunder is preferred over Thunderbolt because it has more power, the same amount of accuracy and a 30% chance of paralysis as opposed to a 10% chance. Sadly, there are no auto rain Pokémon in Little Cup, so Koffing has to spare a moveslot for Rain Dance itself. If you already have a good number of Rain Dancers, you can use Payback instead, dealing a pretty nasty 100 Base Power Dark typed attack to any who dare attack Koffing.
Damp Rock is recommended over Oran Berry because it prolongs the rain, giving you 8 turns (7 when you count the turn to use Rain Dance) of rain, which, no matter how you look at it, is three turns you didn't have before. As for the EVs, go with Sp. Atk, unless your team needs a few more physical attacks, in which case you obviously go with physical.

[SET]
Name: Anti-Lead
~ Explosion
~ Thunderbolt
~ Taunt
~ Flamethrower
Item: Lum Berry / Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Relaxed (+ Def, - Spd)
Evs: 196 Hp, 236 Def, 76 Sp. Atk

[SET COMMENTS]

This set makes use of Koffing's more useless options by doing one thing: sticking him in the lead spot of you're team. Explosion is ubiquitous and should be on every Koffing Set, no matter what you're running. Thunderbolt counters Murkrow leads and leads trying to set up Rain Dance. Taunt is a golden move in that it stops Bronzor as well as those annoying Choice Scarf Hypnosis/Sleep Powder Pokémon, as it will wake up when holding a Lum Berry. Flamethrower will hit those irritating Snover leads pretty hard right in the face, as they're 4x weak to it, essentially giving it a 280 BP over 95.
The choice between Lum Berry and Oran Berry is pretty hard. It is suggested that you go with Lum Berry over Oran Berry because now you can Taunt those sleepers. Everything else should remain the same. The 76 Sp. Atk EVs are recommended over the usual choice because your only attacking moves are special, barring Explosion.

[SET]
Name: Shuffler
~ Explosion
~ Swagger
~ Screech
~ Will-o-Wisp / Toxic / Payback
Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Relaxed (+ Def, - Sp. Def) / Sassy (+ Sp. Def, - Spd)
Evs: 196 Hp, 76 Def, 236 Sp. Def

[SET COMMENTS]

For those of you how like being mischievous, this is your Koffing set. Pair it up with a Gligar on a sandstorm/hail team and call it a day, because despite having no feet, Koffing shuffles like there's no tomorrow. Explosion is mentioned again and will be on every Koffing set, so get used to it. Swagger is your first shuffling attack, sharply raising the foe's attack and confusing them. Now, you can proceed to use Screech, which sharply lowers their defense. Any foe stupid enough to stay in will suffer a pretty heavy blow when they attack their self in confusion. To add insult to injury, you can choose one of the two status options Koffing has at his disposal to further torment your opponent. Alternatively, you can take advantage of screech and simply use Payback, leaving them in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of situation. As usual, simply blow up once you feel Koffing's job is done. This is a very gimmicky set, so only use it if you're playing around, if it's a tourney, stick with the above ones.

[SET]
Name: Spite
~ Explosion
~ Protect
~ Spite
~ Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / Sludge Bomb / Payback
Item: Oran Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Sassy (+ Sp. Def, - Spd)
Evs: 196 Hp, 76 Def, 236 Sp. Def

[SET COMMENTS]

Very gimmicky, but you can easily stall something out of Sucker Punch this way. In D/P, Spite lowers 4 PP instead of a random number between 2 and 5. Switch in, and Protect. Next use Spite so they lose 4 PP, and Protect again, and Spite again. Repeat until satisfied. Explode when you're done. The last option could be a lot of things: pick what you want. Thunderbolt is listed first for a reason, as Murkrow is a serious threat to every team.

[OTHER OPTIONS]

Koffing's other options are far and few between, as most of it's options have been listed here already. Fire Blast could go over Flamethrower in any set, but you'll probably want Flamethrower instead for the accuracy. You may be tempted to use Gyro Ball, but even with 7 Speed, you only have a power of 69 against Pokémon with 19 speed like Murkrow. Dark Pulse is an option over Shadow Ball or Payback, but you won't find many situations where it's more useful. Substitute is generally a good move, but Koffing is too slow to actually use it correctly.

[EVS]

Ordinarily, you'll probably want to be running Max Defense and Max HP with the remainder dumped in either Sp. Def or one of the attacking stats with a Relaxed Nature.

Damage Calculations for 23 HP / 20 Def Koffing

Max Atk CB'd Mankey Close Combat: 43.48% - 47.83%

Max Atk Totodile Waterfall: 39.13% - 47.83%
With one DD: 56.52% - 65.22%
With Torrent: 60.87% - 73.91%
With one DD and Torrent: 82.61% - 100.00%

Max Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch: 43.48% - 52.17%
CB'd Max Atk Murkrow Sucker Punch: 60.87% - 73.91%
Max Atk Murkrow Pluck (w/o berry): 34.78% - 43.48%
CB'd Max Atk Murkrow Pluck (w/o berry): 47.83% - 56.52%

Max Atk Elekid Thunderpunch: 39.13% - 47.83%
CB'd Max Atk Elekid Thunderpunch: 52.17% - 60.87%

No Guard Max Attack Machop Dynamicpunch: 26.09% - 30.43%
Guts Status'd Max Attack Machop Dynamicpunch: 39.13% - 43.48%

Max Atk Cranidos Earthquake: 86.96% - 100.00%
CB'd Max Attack Cranidos Earthquake: 121.74% - 143.48%

In order to minimize Koffing's Overall Harm on the last two sets, a spread of 196 Hp, 76 Def, 236 Sp. Def with a Sassy Nature is recommended.

[OPINION]

Koffing is a wonderful utility Pokémon to have on your team. It counters many Pokémon nicely which would otherwise give you trouble (Murkrow, Bronzor, Totodile, etc) while doing other things as well. The ability to Explode should never be taken lightly on any Pokémon. Sludge Bomb does suck in terms of type coverage, but Game Freak was generous enough to give Koffing a ground immunity and Fire/Electric attacks to use with abandon. In addition, nasty Dark Type moves which spitefully disrupt your opponent make Koffing even more appealing to the team builder's eye. Koffing can't be trapped by Diglett, so feel free to use WoW or explode when they Pursuit. Don't overlook the fact that he can disrupt the opponent with a multitude of status conditions. It's not listed, but you have a set in Rain Dance / Thunder / WoW / Toxic. Koffing requires a lot of prediction, so use wisely.

[COUNTERS]

While nothing can switch safely in on all of Koffing's moves, quite a number of Pokémon can switch in during certain situations. Chinchou switches in on Rain Dance, Thunder, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Spite, and Protect and poses a threat with STAB Surf and Thunderbolt, possibly Thunder, while the only thing Koffing can do is explode in its face. Munchlax takes almost everything pretty well except for WoW and Toxic, and can Curse up to the point Koffing is forced to switch or explode. Gastly is immune to Explosion, takes spat from Sludge Bomb and could care less about WoW, and will always have some kind of hard-hitting special attack to use. Staryu takes status conditions very well with Natural Cure and also has a STAB Surf, which will hurt. Onix is comfortable taking anything Koffing dares throw at it not named Will-o-Wisp or Shadow Ball. Cranidos won't enjoy anything on the switch-in, but once in it will Earthquake Koffing which will OHKO because of Mold Breaker. Baltoy, although seriously hindered by the lack of attacks, takes everything but Shadow Ball / Payback very well, and has a STAB Psychic to hit Koffing with. Houndour, Vulpix and Ponyta don't care about Flamethrower or WoW, and in fact like switching in on them, while they scare Koffing away with a super-powered STAB fire attack. Teddiursa switches in on WoW which will activate Guts, and certainly scare Koffing away, as a Façade will hurt.
Edited by Acredula, Jul 21 2008, 02:00 AM.
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squirtleboy12
enjoys the man-penis
Koffing is great and can serve as both an attacker and a wall but prediction really is the biggest koffings enemy,a koffing can be send against a physical attacker and trie to burned only to be faced against a boosted flash fire pokemon like houmdoom and flametrower back,chinchou takes advantage of thunderbolt and if you trie to explode on something defensive you will be face aginst the very common gasthly/misdreveaus.Koffing is great but requires alot of precition
Edited by squirtleboy12, Jul 16 2008, 02:56 AM.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

A few things in the 30 seconds I have left to post with:

Don't list IVs, especially if they're all 31.

Unlike (shudder) Serebii, generally instead of bolding moves we either make separate paragraphs or don't do anything at all.

The Standard set should probably be maxing Defense. Despite Koffing's worse Special Defense, it's better to easily switch in on all Fighters than to kind of switch in on Fighters and Special Attackers. He should specialize in what he's good at.

On the Rain set, if Damp Rock is recommended, make it the primary option.

Fire Blast is better than Flamethrower. Fire Blast averages 102 Base Power per turn while Flamethrower averages 95, plus Weezing can take more than one hit unlike a lot of Little Cup.

Koffing's Speed can be dropped to 6 with a 0 IV, greately powering up Gyro Ball.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Acredula
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Okay.

Seperate paragraphs is too much work. Bolding it makes it considerate text for the reader. Besides, Serebii is spat enough as it is.

Well, he takes on Craogunk nicely with Flamethrower, if that's what you mean. Standard calculations for a 196/76/236 Sassy Koffing against an Adamant Max Attack Machop:

Max attack Machop's Dynamicpunch to 196/76/236 Sassy Koffing: Damage: 7 - 8 Damage: 30.43% - 34.78% Why? Because Koffing already has 17 Def and 23 HP: Machop only has 18 Atk. Now, if we slap a Choice Band on that Machop: Damage: 9 - 11 Damage: 39.13% - 47.83%. That's still a 3KO, which is sad. Koffing is fine as it is. Let's try a Croagunk's Vacuum Wave after a Nasty Plot (Nasty Plot on the switch): Damage: 6 - 7 Damage: 26.09% - 30.43%. Still pretty sad as it's a 3KO too. Koffing is fine to take hits on both sides of the spectrum like such. People tend to overestimate Koffing, but by no means underestimate him.

'K.

True, but there are times when you miss with Fire Blast and will hit with Flamethrower. Sometimes it won't matter (like in the Croagunk example above) but other times it will, like vs. Snorunt or Sheildon. Espically if both are under hail (and don't start with the Snow Warning--I know my abilities). By you're logic, I should always be running a Nasty Plot / Fire Blast / Dark Pulse / Filler Houndour, because on average it will hit harder, but the fine print says if it doesn't die from priority moves first. A miss for Koffing may be a little more okay than a miss for others, but it still hurts in the long run.

No, because it still isn't useful enough. On shoddy it goes down to 7, and my useful calculator says that would have a power of 69 against the standard 19 speed. At 6 speed, you only have ~79 Base Power, which is still too weak enough to harbor use. Unless you're playing a match where everything must have some kind of choice item, you won't get more use out of it, and Flamethrower, Payback and Thunderbolt are more than sufficent to use for coverage. Koffing doesn't sweep, but explodes and inflicts status while countering Murkrow, Misdreavus, Totodile, etc.
Edited by Acredula, Jul 16 2008, 01:30 PM.
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squirtleboy12
enjoys the man-penis
Acredula your forgetting croagunk is faster than koffing and alot of all-special attacking croagunk with modest carry dark pulse wich is a 2ohko after a nasty plot switch,even though kopffing survived and can hurt koffing in some way..koffing is pretty much done fore with barely 10 percent of its hp left..whats worst os that you expected a move like vacumm wave and tried to burned leaving koffing without exploding or even worst croagunk sets up another nasty plot to sweep your team while its burned..also a mix croagunk will be a problem ex:modest croagunk used nasty plot,opponent switches koffing,croagunk uses fake out koffing dosnt attack it looses some hp.croagunk uses dark pulse koffing faints.lol and explosion is just so obvious on koffing when the time comes that the opponent just protects switches to a rock type

by the way a flash fire boosted flametrower without nasty plot is a ohko so houndour can easely switch into willow-o-wisp.
ponytas flare blitz also ohkos after a flash fire boost
Edited by squirtleboy12, Jul 16 2008, 02:23 PM.
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Acredula
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I'd just explode as soon as I come in, because there's no way I'm letting a Craogunk set up on me. Those things are pretty nasty. And you kind of reinforced my point about needing Sp. Def EVs.

I already had those two in Counters.
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Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

defence EVs are strictly better, and squirtleboy, Fake Out wont work if Nasty PLot is used that turn. Croagunk will get slaughtered by Flamethrower anyway.

The main reason to have Koffing is to give a good switch into Fighting types.

Remove all that stuff related to pokedex and about overall harm and rework your EVs, max defence then split the rest between sp attack and HP. Koffing doesnt have the resistances on the special side to make Sp Def Evs worth it.
Edited by Dixie, Jul 16 2008, 06:51 PM.
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Jonny Evans - Legend.
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Elevator Music
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♫ I got that boom boom pow ♫
Uhh, why are we maxing out defenses at all? Unless you name is Bronzor there isn't much of a point. Seriously, I've never really seen the point of it on things that actually can hit decently hard (Hi Gligar. Hi Koffing) since they're getting at best 3HKO'd anyways. I'd say investing even just a little in your offense is worth it more, as isn't hitting harder more important?

Sludge Bomb/Flamethrower should be your attacking combo on the first set, as there isn't Heatran to come in and laugh at you in LC. It's got decent coverage beside that.
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Cooper
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Smiles are free

Acredula
Jul 16 2008, 01:28 PM
Max attack Machop's Dynamicpunch to 196/76/236 Sassy Koffing: Damage: 7 - 8 Damage: 30.43% - 34.78% Why? Because Koffing already has 17 Def and 23 HP: Machop only has 18 Atk. Now, if we slap a Choice Band on that Machop: Damage: 9 - 11 Damage: 39.13% - 47.83%. That's still a 3KO, which is sad. Koffing is fine as it is. Let's try a Croagunk's Vacuum Wave after a Nasty Plot (Nasty Plot on the switch): Damage: 6 - 7 Damage: 26.09% - 30.43%. Still pretty sad as it's a 3KO too. Koffing is fine to take hits on both sides of the spectrum like such.
This is fine and all, but how about running some calculations against pokemon that hit for neutral damage, not the NVE you've got now? Chris and Dixie are right, unless there's a very good reason to take EVs out of a good stat and put into a bad one (*pokemon* can survive a hit from its counter, OHKO with a particular move, etc), you should never do it. Defense first, special defense second.

Separate paragraphs are better than a huge wall of text for three reasons: 1) considerate text doesn't apply here, because people won't find a wall of text considerate, 2) English grammar tells us to make a separate paragraph when we start a new topic (i.e. what Will~o~Wisp does for a set and what Sludge Bomb does for a set), and 3) it looks cleaner when eric sets up the HTML page.

Aside from that the analysis looks great. You're really good at this.
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Acredula
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Cooper
Jul 16 2008, 03:53 PM
This is fine and all, but how about running some calculations against pokemon that hit for neutral damage, not the NVE you've got now? Chris and Dixie are right, unless there's a very good reason to take EVs out of a good stat and put into a bad one (*pokemon* can survive a hit from its counter, OHKO with a particular move, etc), you should never do it. Defense first, special defense second.

Separate paragraphs are better than a huge wall of text for three reasons: 1) considerate text doesn't apply here, because people won't find a wall of text considerate, 2) English grammar tells us to make a separate paragraph when we start a new topic (i.e. what Will~o~Wisp does for a set and what Sludge Bomb does for a set), and 3) it looks cleaner when eric sets up the HTML page.

Aside from that the analysis looks great. You're really good at this.
Too lazy to keep arguing with the first one. The point is, that Koffing makes a better switch in to fighters with a more even Defensive spread. Not that it makes a much better switchng into a DD+2 Larvitar with more Sp. Def.

1) Considerate text always applys, espically in large walls. I'll argue with you for hours on end about english grammar (and french grammar as well). It is a subject of my expertise.
2) It's the same topic. The first paragraph is how the attacks themselves serve the set and the second is how the item, nature, ability, "accessoires" basically, help the set. It's very logical. I see no reason to tear it apart into ten little one line paragraphs. Look at Jump's analyses.
3) Once again, look at Jump's analyses.

Thanks. =D I get that a lot. I don't understand how some people write three sentences and call it an analysis. I like to get creative with things. *rambles*

Dixie
 
no defence EVs are strictly better...

If you can give me several examples, I will change it. But from my expieriences Koffing will faint. You're overestimating him.

Dixie
 
The main reason to have Koffing is to give a good switch into Fighting types.

Koffing already has a wonder switch into fighting types, thanks for your concern. [/sarcasm]

Dixie
 
Remove all that stuff related to pokedex and about overall harm

Why?
Dixie
 
and rework your EVs, max defence then split the rest between sp attack and HP. Koffing doesnt have the resistances on the special side to make Sp Def Evs worth it.


Okay. >.> This thing is short enough as it is, so I guess a little more won't hurt.
This isn't Adv. Everything is now physical and special. I think that might have been a typo or something, or maybe I don't get your point.

Fallacy
 
Sludge Bomb/Flamethrower should be your attacking combo on the first set, as there isn't Heatran to come in and laugh at you in LC. It's got decent coverage beside that

Uhhh...not really. Without that, you're no longer a counter to Murkrow, which is Koffing's main objective (Cooper and Dixie, this is your cue to start bugging me about Def. EVs). Thunderbolt/Payback has better coverage, and Payback is more powerful. You lose STAB, but what are you hitting SE with it?
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Cooper
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Smiles are free

I don't see putting EVs into special defense so much as a problem rather than an incongruity. You're not explaining to me why it's best that I ignore Koffing's best stat and invest in one of his worst. You're using the term overall harm, which I DID look up and still don't understand (probably the reason why dixie is telling you to remove it). To me, you're relying heavily on theorymon, while ignoring the fact that Koffing has terrible special defense and great defense, and can still accomplish his utility role with a Relaxed nature and a 252/252 spread.

That said, I'm all for ingenuity, and by looking at any of my analyses you'll see that I hate 252/252 spreads, but with good reason. You're not giving me a good reason.

Dixie's right, Dex info should go. This is a competitive battling site, and unless you're being Grass Knotted or Low Kicked (neither of which is likely), weight is irrelevant. Height matters less, as does gender ratio. The only part I like is the National No., which makes Koffing a lot easier to find on serebii's pokedex.
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

Overall Harm refers to maximizing one's defensive potential on both ends of the spectrum. However, here it doesn't apply as Koffing's main use is that of a PHYSICAL tank. It'd be like running 252 HP / 252 SDef on Skarmory.

Regardless of your personal opinion on the matter, there's a way we do things here. We need all analyses to look similar, and we expect our readers to be smart enough to figure out the subjects of their sentences. Please don't bold text unnecessarily.

Serebii's analyses suck.

Even those 3HKOs in resisted attacks, unless you can immediately OHKO the opponent it's not an ideal amount of damage.

Quote:
 
The point is, that Koffing makes a better switch in to fighters with a more even Defensive spread.


No they don't, that's just completely wrong. The number of Special attacking Fighting types is exactly one, and you can't take his hits well even with maxed Special Defense. He's a counter to Fighting types; run defense so he can do that. He's not RSE Blissey.

Quote:
 
1) Considerate text always applys, espically in large walls. I'll argue with you for hours on end about english grammar (and french grammar as well). It is a subject of my expertise.
2) It's the same topic. The first paragraph is how the attacks themselves serve the set and the second is how the item, nature, ability, "accessoires" basically, help the set. It's very logical. I see no reason to tear it apart into ten little one line paragraphs. Look at Jump's analyses.
3) Once again, look at Jump's analyses.


1. Large walls of text are not pleasant for the reader. Stop pretending to be an English major please.
2. No one's saying to make new paragraphs per sentence, but the paragraphs are long and since all of the attacks don't serve the same purpose one could easily argue that a new paragraph is necessary.
3. Jump's analyses aren't bolded, don't have IVs, and he doesn't even have any easily attributed to himself that we can look at.

I'm going to have to ask you to cooperate with us here.
Edited by Chris, Jul 16 2008, 08:50 PM.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Acredula
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Well Cooper, let's go with this scenario as to why you should keep the Sp. Def EVs. I took your advice (and Dixie's too) and removed all of them while battling TheMantyke. I was running Destiny Bond just because it could work, since Destiny Bond + Explosion is a pretty good combo. Anyways, I switched in on Croagunk, who Nasty Plotted. (Look familier?) I used Destiny Bond, but it used Dark Pulse first, and guess for how much precent? 104%. Had I kept those EVs I could have blown up and it wouldn't have swept half my team. Even if I didn't have Destiny Bond I could have blown up, which would have KO'd 'Gunk.

(Note to Self: Don't trust Cooper and Dixie when it comes to Koffing).

Ask Mantyke, he'll probably remember it.

It's not best to ignore Koffing's best stat, I boosted it by a stat point because of Overall Harm.

How about a compromise? Let's run a 196 Hp, 76 (Sp.) Atk, 160 Def, 76 Sp. Def Sassy Natured Koffing. Does that sound fair? I'm pretty sure I could have survived that Dark Pulse with the two extra stat points. Koffing still has 18 Def, max HP, and some juice for attack. How's that for ingunity?

http://users.smogon.com/X-Act/defense.html - Overall Harm Java Applet courtsey of X-Act

http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/maximizing_defenses
 
To understand how to distribute your defensive EVs, it is important to understand what the Overall Harm that a Pokemon can sustain is.

The Overall Harm is a number representing the fraction of HP a Pokemon would lose if it was to be dealt a physical move and a special move of the same power in succession. It is defined using the following formula:

Overall Harm = (k(D + IS) + 4DS) ÷ HDSwhere:

k is a constant representing the damage being dealt by the foe
D is your Defense stat
S is your Special Defense stat
H is your HP stat
I is 2/3 if your Pokemon has the Intimidate trait, 1 otherwise
Thus, to distribute your EVs for maximum defenses, you need to choose H, D and S in the above formula such that the Overall Harm is the lowest possible.

Overall Harm is right there. It's for bulky Pokémon like Koffing.

Not flaming you or anything, because when I debate with people things usually go in the wrong direction. Umm..yeah. Anyways, I just like to talk, or in this case, type. And I like to debate, so we can keep going until there's no way the other can win, or unless we compromise. *points at above*
Edited by Acredula, Jul 16 2008, 06:09 PM.
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Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

without being rude...no-one cares about overall harm when EVing a pokemon. They EV a defensive pokemon to have a certain amount of resistance or ability to stand up to certain threats. Koffing NEEDS Defence EVs to take stuff like CB Close Combats.

With your suggested EVs, a Jolly CB Mankey has a chance of 2HKOing with Close Combat, even with Oran Berry with your suggested EVs. With maximum defence it has no such chance.

I don't try use the damn overall harm formula to EV my Skarmory do I? I know it is meant to wall physical threats, so I give it enough EVs to help it survive threats. SDef EVs are contradictory to Koffing's purpose, it's not like its Cloyster where it's defence is ridiculously high and its SDef is stupidly low that SpDef EVs become useful.

If you can tell me how the height of a pokemon, and its national dex number is useful in a competitive pokemon battle then you can keep the info there.

Finally, when I talk about Koffing's resistances on the special side, I mean that Koffing does not have resistance to any common powerful special attack eg Flamethrower, Surf, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt etc so most of these STABbed moves will 2 or 3HKO regardless of EVs. On the other hand, Koffing has Ground and Fighting immunity/resistance. Both types are far more common in the physical form and the moves have higher BP i.e. Earthquake + Close Combat > Earth Power (rare, HP Ground is even weaker and more common) and Aura Sphere (which is rare, only Vacuum Wave and HP Fight are seen in LC). The ground type is normally complemented by a rock move e.g. Stone Edge so it makes sense that if Koffing is to wall physical Earthquake attackers, it needs Def EVs to protect itself from Stone Edges. Similarly, Koffing needs def EVs to switch in repeated on powerful fighting types such as Guts Machop and CBmankey.
Edited by Dixie, Jul 16 2008, 07:08 PM.
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Acredula
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Quote:
 
without being rude...no-one cares about overall harm when EVing a pokemon. They EV a defensive pokemon to have a certain amount of resistance or ability to stand up to certain threats. Koffing NEEDS Defence EVs to take stuff like CB Close Combats.

People care about overall harm. Just because it's a "new" concept doesn't mean it isn't important.
Quote:
 
With your suggested EVs, a Jolly CB Mankey has a chance of 2HKOing with Close Combat, even with Oran Berry with your suggested EVs. With maximum defence it has no such chance.

Will it have a chance when you switch the natute to Relaxed?
Quote:
 
I don't try use the damn overall harm formula to EV my Skarmory do I? I know it is meant to wall physical threats, so I give it enough EVs to help it survive threats. SDef EVs are contradictory to Koffing's purpose, it's not like its Cloyster where it's defence is ridiculously high and its SDef is stupidly low that SpDef EVs become useful.

No need for the swear here. That's because we already know what works best on Skarmory, and because Skarmory is the premier physical wall of choice. Koffing is BL because he's outclassed by Gligar, Bronzor and the like. If anything, compare it to Donphan, who is meant to attack and defend. Should you use Overall Harm for Donphan? Yeah, it would be a good idea. Except that Donphan isn't meant to disrupt like Koffing is. Weezing, on the other hand, it. Should you use Overall Harm for Weezing? Most certainly. It's because people try to compare Little Cup to OU and say they're the same, and the problem is, they aren't. The Pokémon are different, the threats are different, etc, etc.
Quote:
 
If you can tell me how the height of a pokemon, and its national dex number is useful in a competitive pokemon battle then you can keep the info there.

LOL! I put height in there? My mistake. National Number is good for just a quick glance. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be in there.
Quote:
 
Finally, when I talk about Koffing's resistances on the special side, I mean that Koffing does not have resistance to any common powerful special attack eg Flamethrower, Surf, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt etc so most of these STABbed moves will 2 or 3HKO regardless of EVs. On the other hand, Koffing has Ground and Fighting immunity/resistance. Both types are far more common in the physical form and the moves have higher BP i.e. Earthquake + Close Combat > Earth Power (rare, HP Ground is even weaker and more common) and Aura Sphere (which is rare, only Vacuum Wave and HP Fight are seen in LC). The ground type is normally complemented by a rock move e.g. Stone Edge so it makes sense that if Koffing is to wall physical Earthquake attackers, it needs Def EVs to protect itself from Stone Edges. Similarly, Koffing needs def EVs to switch in repeated on powerful fighting types such as Guts Machop and CBmankey.

In case you've momentarily forgotton, LC is a ghost heavy metagame. They're everywhere. CB Mankey isn't such a problem. I already did Machop. Pokémon like Gligar are better suited for those things anyways. Koffing is meant to disrupt, and it needs to be able to defend itself in the process. It's not Skarmory, it's not Giratina, it's not Bronzor and it certainly isn't Clefable either.

But yeah, the special side thing was stupidity on my part.
Edited by Acredula, Jul 16 2008, 07:25 PM.
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