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Wailmer; Might need help on Counters
Topic Started: Jul 6 2008, 08:58 PM (1,472 Views)
Lou Cypher

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Code:
 
Stat--base min- min max max+
HP----130--N/A--29---32---N/A
Att---70---11---13---16---17
Def---35---8----10---13---14
Sp.A--70---11---13---16---17
Sp.D--35---8----10---13---14
Spe---60---10---12---15---16


[SET]
Name: ScarfSpout
Move 1: Water Spout
Move 2: Surf/Hydro Pump
Move 3: Ice Beam/Rock Tomb
Move 4: Hidden Power Grass/Hidden Power Electric
Item: Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Veil
Nature: Modest/Timid
EV’s: 40 HP/196 Sp. ATK/76 Sp. DEF/196 Speed

[Set Comments]
Water Spout is a unique move that packs a humongous punch, but only as long as you maintain a high HP score. So with the averagely speeded Wailmer, what are you going to do? Indeed, slap a Choice Scarf on it and call it a day. With Choice Scarf, Wailmer gets up there with most other Scarfers, but it’s still not as fast as you want it to be.
Anyway, get it in unharmed (Slow U-Turners or Revenge Kill are generally great) and start Spouting. Even stuff resistant or with a high Sp. DEF score will feel it. When your power has dwindled, the second move will provide reliable STAB. Ice Beam and a Hidden Power of your choice (Grass is probably preferred, unless you really hate Mantyke and Wingull) complement this set nicely.
Rock Tomb is there in case you really hate stuff like Mantyke if you opt for HP Grass, Ice Beam is superior in hitting Grassers.

[SET]
Name: Passed Wailmer
Move 1: Water Spout
Move 2: Surf/Hydro Pump
Move 3: Ice Beam
Move 4: Hidden Power Grass/Hidden Power Electric
Item: Wise Glasses
Ability: Water Veil
Nature: Modest
EV’s: 40 HP/196 Sp. ATK/76 Sp. DEF/196 Speed

[Set Comments]
This seems highly familiar but is in fact completely different from the other set. This Wailmer should only be used receiving a Speed Boost from a Baton passer. Without that, this Wailmer is stopped cold soon. Get this in safely with an Agility passed and enjoy your laughs. For people who don’t like to commit a setup on him, the above set is probably preferable.

[SET]
Name: Physical Whale
Move 1: Waterfall
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Avalanche
Move 4: Return
Item: Choice Band/Life Orb
Ability: Water Veil
Nature: Adamant
EV’s: 196 ATK/156 DEF/156 SP. DEF

[Set Comments]
Cursing is a bad option in Little Cup, so Choice Band is there for Wailmer, although Life Orb can in fact work for the little whale.. Wailmer is unique in having access in a nice host of unresisted moves in Little Cup, Earth-Ice is always good to have, and Water-Normal is unresisted and has half profit of STAB.
Wailmer’s prime attack with this set is indeed Waterfall, which is backed up by Return in case you know something you can’t hit neutral comes up. Earthquake punishes the switch ins of obvious electric’s, Avalanche those of Grassers. Avalanche has an additional effect of doubling in power after you’ve been hit, and given Wailmer’s humongous HP, it can in fact take a hit more often as not. This is also potentionally the only set where the trait of choice really matters; Water Veil grants Wailmer immune to Burn and thus Burn’s nasty habit of halving your attack.

[Other Options]
Wailmer’s movepool isn’t grant, but it has some moves left. It can try to ResTalk with Water Spout but in LC, that isn’t a good idea. Plus, it lacks the speed really. Rock Tomb is interesting – If you catch a Switch In with it, the opponent will be slower, allowing you to hit them again. Double Edge is available for more physical oomph if you prefer that, but the recoil might put you off. There is always Toxic/Protect, but Wailmer has better things to do.

[EVS]
The given EV’s tend to be your best bet. If you feel like making Wailmer more sturdy, focus on his defenses more as his HP, which is great as it is.

[Opinion]
Wailmer is unique along with Cyndaquil in having a Base 150 Move with STAB in its arsenal, but a need to keep a high HP. Water is however arguably better as Fire in this case. But Wailmer can do more as just Water Spouting. Be aware that even if you delivered a blow to its HP, it can still fight back reasonably well with his other moves. Base 70 in both attacking stats isn’t to be taken lightly.

[Counters]
Counters to Wailmer should prey on his not so hot speed, as well as the fact that he tends to be weakened offensively too after a blow. Small problem, there isn’t a lot that can outspeed Wailmer and can easily take a Water Spout. So its best to let your initial reaction be a Water Resist – It tends to be what Wailmer starts with.
Wailmer generally has problems facing Bulky Waters – Hidden Power just doesn’t pack enough oomph to easily dispose of them. If his Hidden Power is Grass, Mantyke receives special commands. If its Electric, then Wooper and Chinchou laugh at it.
Also keep in mind that Snover can come in on pretty much everything Wailmer throws at it (Although Water Spout will bite) and can make the weather harmful for Wailmer, making Water Spout gradually weaker.
Be sure to keep in mind that its hard to revenge kill Wailmer due to that high HP. If you get in a faster (Preferably Scarfed) Electric or Grass type, then you’re in good shape.
Edited by Lou Cypher, Jul 7 2008, 06:49 PM.
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Cooper
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Smiles are free

Aww man, what a jerk. I was TOTALLY going to post Wailmer after my other two analyses got cleared. Well, at least I can try and help you. Here's my Scarf set, as well as relevant damage calcs:

[SET]
Name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Water Spout
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power [Grass]
move 4: Rock Tomb
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Water Veil
nature: Mild
evs: 116 HP/40 Atk/200SpA/118 Spd
ivs: 30 Atk/30 SpA

[DAMAGE CALCS]

vs. Dratini: 65.00% - 75.00% (Water Spout)

vs. Munchlax: 51.52% - 60.61% (Water Spout, 252 HP/SpD Munchlax)

vs. Chinchou: 51.85% - 59.26% (HP Grass, 252 HP/SpD +nature Chinchou)

vs. Mantyke: 50.00% - 58.33% (Rock Tomb, 252 HP Mantyke)

You also lack a Curse set, which could potentially be somewhat almost viable:

[SET]
Name: Curser
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Earthquake/Rock Tomb
move 3: Body Slam/Return
move 4: Curse
item: Oran Berry
ability: Water Veil
nature: Brave
evs: 196 HP/196 Atk/76 SpD
ivs: 0 Spd

And it turns out I never got to the counters section. Sorry....
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Seven Deadly Sins
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KD24 banned Tangela

Curse is almost completely overshadowed by Munchlax, who actually has a usable defense score to give it a chance to come in and scare stuff out for a free turn. Also, Wailmer's very mediocre Special Defense means that stuff like Abra comes in for free and slaughters it with Energy Ball.

As for your Scarf set, Rock Tomb is a mediocre choice even for covering Mantyke, as Wailmer's absolutely gargantuan HP allows it to survive most hits and come back in, where having a powerful STAB Hydro Pump or Surf really benefits it. Also, if worse comes to worse, Wailmer has Ice Beam, which hits for neutral damage against Mantine- not very scary, but not exactly useless.On the other hand, Ice Beam doesn't really cover much that Water Spout doesn't, so you can stick Rock Tomb in over Ice Beam. In Little Cup, the Dragons that would resist Water aren't as scary, and they get 2HKOed by a full power Water Spout (and that's Dratini, the one with the best resistance and highest Special Defense).

Secondary STAB is necessary, Ice Beam is not. Note that none of your calculations used Ice Beam because it affords mediocre coverage with Water, and other than Tangela, very few Grass-types are commonly used in LC.
Kannon
 
SDS, Ice resists Water. Ground doesn't resist Rock.
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Cooper
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I'll give you the Curse comment, but Rock Tomb is in no way a bad choice for Wailmer. It has two definite counters: Mantyke and Wooper. If you run HP Electric, Wooper and Chinchou walk all over you. If you run HP Grass, Mantyke can feel free to come in any time. An optimal set would be able to take care of every threat. And you do that by taking out the grossly unnecessary second STAB. Seriously, Hydro Pump only has 45 less base power than WS after the attack bonus. If you're that afraid of having a weak WS, don't run it in the first place.

I forgot to say yesterday that those were just comments I felt like salvaging from my own Wailmer analysis. You can completely ignore anything you don't like. Just think of them as paragraphs with really bad grammar.

vs. Mantkye: 25.00% - 33.33% (Ice Beam, 252 HP/SpD +nature Mantyke)

Ice Beam isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO, which isn't too great seeing as how Mantyke packs HP Electric/Grass.
Edited by Cooper, Jul 7 2008, 03:13 PM.
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Dixie
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

counters: chinchou, snover, manytke, munchlax, wooper
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Jonny Evans - Legend.
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Seven Deadly Sins
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KD24 banned Tangela

Let's say Water Spout DOESN'T kill what you're hitting with it, and you get hit. (or maybe you switch out of a Munchlax and get Pursuited) Maybe you switched Wailmer into an umboosted attack when you expected a stat up of some sort? If you have Secondary STAB, you aren't completely neutered- you still pose a massive threat.

Honestly, why does Wailmer even have Ice Beam? Things that are weak to Ice and resist Water (Dragon, Grass) all get 2HKOed by Water Spout in Little Cup anyway, so there's no need to have it. Rock Tomb CAN work on Wailmer, and it's better than Ice Beam in most cases as well. But Secondary STAB is in no way superfluous on Wailmer, a Poke that is likely to be able to take most unboosted hits and survive.
Kannon
 
SDS, Ice resists Water. Ground doesn't resist Rock.
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Cooper
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I suppose. Lou should replace Ice Beam with Rock Tomb then? Or at least give it a slash.
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Lou Cypher

Yeah, and let Grassers ruin his fun the moment Water Spout isnt huge anymore? I dont know, I still think Ice Beam is handy just for those. And it can hit stuff like Croagunk on the switch-in, provided you predicted well.

I'll be making some edits, but I ain't going to do a Curse set just because of reasons stated; it just doesn't work in LC unless your name is Munchlax.
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Cooper
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Note that if you use Rock Tomb for Mantyke, you need a neutral nature with 40 Atk EVs for the 2HKO. Also, the EVs on the first two sets are wrong. They need to be 36 HP/200 SpA/76 SpD/196 Spd to accommodate the drop in IVs from HP Grass/Electric.
Edited by Cooper, Jul 7 2008, 08:00 PM.
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

Note that "2HKO" is 50% minimum, 75%-80% not included because of fucking oran berry. Also note that SR actually hurts the chances of a 2HKO.

Also note that why don't you just have HP Grass / HP Electric as dual options?
Edited by Chris, Jul 7 2008, 09:47 PM.
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Seven Deadly Sins
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KD24 banned Tangela

There are no defensive Grass-types in LC that can take hits on the special side. Every single one gets 2HKOed by Hydro Pump or Water Spout. In terms of covering all possible counters, Ice Beam isn't all that useful.

The best Special Defensive Grass-type is Budew, which poses pretty much no threat at all to a team. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that Budew gets 2HKOed by Water Spout or Hydro Pump.
Kannon
 
SDS, Ice resists Water. Ground doesn't resist Rock.
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Acredula
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Seven Deadly Sins
Jul 8 2008, 02:07 AM
There are no defensive Grass-types in LC that can take hits on the special side. Every single one gets 2HKOed by Hydro Pump or Water Spout. In terms of covering all possible counters, Ice Beam isn't all that useful.

The best Special Defensive Grass-type is Budew, which poses pretty much no threat at all to a team. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that Budew gets 2HKOed by Water Spout or Hydro Pump.
What about Shroomish? You have way more HP, but less Sp. Def. I don't know where I can find a damage calculator, but I'm pretty sure that STAB Seed Bomb/Energy Ball would do a decent about of damage, coupled with Spore.
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Chris
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Abrasive Dick

You misread him. Shroomish is 2HKO'd by Water Spout. He didn't say "no grass types can KO him", he said "no grass types can take 2 Water Spouts".
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tennisace0227
 
Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

Cooper
 
I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Acredula
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Anyways, I run HP [Ghost] on my Wailmer to get the jump on those using Hidden Power [Electric] or [Grass] because they sacrafice an IV, so I can go first. So, don't run HP [Electric] or [Grass] on your Wailmer. Or just run Earthquake for Chinchou.
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Cooper
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Won't Wooper effectively wall you then? Counter Wooper would become an even bigger threat than it is now. Besides that, you lose all your coverage against other Water types in general. Giving up your type coverage to outspeed a single UU/BL pokemon is not a very good idea.
Seven Deadly Sins
 
Banded Gible 2HKOs pretty much everything with Outrage, and OHKOs most everything.
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