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Smogon and LC part deux
Topic Started: Jul 16 2009, 02:48 AM (2,288 Views)
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old school like Aztecs but new in other aspects

Yeah i don't have access to PR, which sucks since I'm a mod and badged member!

Anyhow aldaron and I had a chat about the LC article that was posted on smogon. His argument is that LC isn't recognized by smogon, and I argued why it should. It boiled down to this:

<+aldaron> if you can the lcf people to formally propose a short term and long term plan for lc
<&Stellar> get the*
<+aldaron> and submit it to me, i'll see what i can do to get it "official"

So I ask you guys: what kind of plan do you have for LC? Are you willing to revamp EVERY LC article up to Smogon standards? Are you willing to retest all of the LC Ubers up to Smogon standards? Please, tell me what you want to do.

<+aldaron> anyway tennis like i was saying
<+aldaron> i am ignoring the analyses altogether
<+aldaron> i just mean a plan to legitimize the metagame in smogon's eyes
Edited by tennisace, Jul 16 2009, 02:49 AM.
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Back. Will see in the next week or so how much I can contribute.

You should now have PR access. PM me if you don't.

We are willing to revamp our LC analyses. I believe that the majority of our approved analyses aren't too far away from Smogon standards, many are in SCMS format, have good grammar in general and are knowledgeably written. I think that you could bring many analyses up to standard with a 20 minute glance over. Obviously, the main thing missing is the Team Options section but that should come later when we are in a better position to do so. Our analyses are priorities in the long run.

The long term aim for Little Cup is to create the best metagame and one that is played by the wider community. As far as retesting ubers goes, I don't think it takes a genius to work out that Scyther, Sneasel and Tangela are broken as hell and that Yanma, Meditite and Murkrow would likely fall under the same category. We may re-test, but any "smogon standard" testing isn't really worth pursuing unless we had more players.

Just reading your edit now, and Aldaron asks how do we legitimise the metagame. That's a pretty weird question to ask, how does one legitimise any metagame, if anything LC can be seen as the least arbitary metagame compared to Ubers/OU/BL/UU etc which are usage based and power based. We play it competitively, the ladder on DJD's server is pretty competitive as was the 64 man tournament. We have a community agreed banlist that is accepted and used throughout LC as well as solid information available to players about illegal combinations and attacks. We use statistics when they are available and we are working on a testing procedure for potentially broken pokemon. Obviously we have to be logical and see that Smogon with 250k or however many battles a month cannot have its policies applied to us with 1-2k battles a month. I'm not sure how we can "legitimise" the metagame much more, without the help of Smogon.

Though I would like to see the input of others. If you don't have PR access, PM me with your sentiments and I'll post it so long as it is sensible or if I think you deserve it, I'll give you PR access.
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Jonny Evans - Legend.
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Jul 16 2009, 09:37 AM
Just reading your edit now, and Aldaron asks how do we legitimise the metagame. That's a pretty weird question to ask, how does one legitimise any metagame, if anything LC can be seen as the least arbitary metagame compared to Ubers/OU/BL/UU etc which are usage based and power based.
You seem to misunderstand my main point. Legitimizing, in a practical sense, does not, unfortunately, mean only recognizing a competently created and maintained and popularly played metagame; it also involves convincing those who will legitimize that it deserves to be so.

This is 1000* more politics than it is what is "right."

I will post a conversation between SDS and I to summarize my thoughts. Bold is the important part.

[18:19:12] <SevenDeadlySins> hey
[18:19:45] <aldaron> sup
[18:20:05] <SevenDeadlySins> can we have a little chat about the whole lc thing now or soon
[18:20:18] <aldaron> what do you want to chat about exactly
[18:20:26] <SevenDeadlySins> well
[18:20:36] <SevenDeadlySins> mainly just getting on the same page about your concerns about lc
[18:20:42] <aldaron> i just wanted to post in the LCF PR forum that this is about 1000* more policy than what is "right"
[18:20:47] <SevenDeadlySins> and how we would go about getting support from other smogon staff
[18:20:55] <SevenDeadlySins> what do you mean by that
[18:20:56] <aldaron> more politics*
[18:21:00] <aldaron> not policy lol
[18:21:04] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah

[18:21:24] <aldaron> the best way would be to be quite about it in the beginning
[18:21:34] <aldaron> so the loud belligerent members like blank and blank dont catch wind of it
[18:21:47] <aldaron> if they do they'll go on and on and on and on and on with their hyperboles
[18:21:47] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah
[18:22:01] <SevenDeadlySins> iirc didn't blank voice some solid opposition to it originally
[18:22:07] <aldaron> yea
[18:22:15] <aldaron> blank / blank arent fans of it either
[18:22:27] <aldaron> in fact about 95% of the staff is against it
[18:22:31] <SevenDeadlySins> any reason specifically
[18:22:33] <aldaron> and the other 5% is indifferent lol
[18:22:41] <aldaron> inherent biases
[18:22:46] <SevenDeadlySins> ah
[18:22:49] <SevenDeadlySins> well
[18:22:57] <aldaron> people don't seem to realize that metagames are just what people play
[18:23:02] <SevenDeadlySins> we have a mostly balanced metagame so far
[18:23:16] <SevenDeadlySins> and we're working on testing for the only dubious members of the current metagame
[18:23:17] <aldaron> i kind of wanted to push this off until sb2 came out and we were forced to recognize vgc as ametagame
[18:23:30] <SevenDeadlySins> well
[18:23:33] <aldaron> because that would be precedence regarding "legitimizing metagames that are played"

[18:23:48] <SevenDeadlySins> another notable thing is that there's an official lc guide on the site now, or will be soon
[18:23:55] <aldaron> i agree that you guys have a good metagame set up
[18:24:03] <aldaron> but people won't care
[18:24:14] <aldaron> another argument will be "why split our resources"
[18:24:25] <SevenDeadlySins> well
[18:24:26] <aldaron> to which i assume i will respond "we won't" because they already have their staff set up
[18:24:32] <SevenDeadlySins> there's no real resource splitting
[18:24:34] <aldaron> but then they'll say "but that's not smogon"
[18:24:38] <SevenDeadlySins> me dixie eric have it under control
[18:24:45] <aldaron> yea but only you are a badged member
[18:24:47] <aldaron> and tennis i think

[18:24:54] <aldaron> i forget if he is sitll badged
[18:24:55] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah
[18:24:57] <SevenDeadlySins> thus why i'm an admin
[18:25:00] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah he's still tutor
[18:25:10] <aldaron> you definitely need more staff support
[18:25:12] <aldaron> i am one
[18:25:16] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah
[18:25:21] <aldaron> how is stellar on this?
[18:25:26] <SevenDeadlySins> j7r was actually interested in lc for a while
[18:25:27] <aldaron> i know jimbo is compeltely against it lol
[18:25:29] <SevenDeadlySins> not sure
[18:25:31] <SevenDeadlySins> would you like me to talk to him
[18:25:35] <aldaron> stellar / darkie?
[18:25:37] <SevenDeadlySins> lol
[18:25:42] <SevenDeadlySins> not sure about darkie either
[18:25:43] <aldaron> i ask because it seems the cap crowd is more into lcfr
[18:25:45] <aldaron> lcf*
[18:25:47] <SevenDeadlySins> i can talk to them about it
[18:25:56] <SevenDeadlySins> well cap is into lc because doug was nice enough to give us a lc ladder on cap server
[18:26:00] <SevenDeadlySins> which is another point
[18:26:03] <aldaron> ooo doug
[18:26:05] <SevenDeadlySins> doug probably supports
[18:26:07] <aldaron> doug is a powerful supporter
[18:26:10] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah
[18:26:13] <SevenDeadlySins> he put a lc ladder on cap
[18:26:16] <SevenDeadlySins> and a lc find tab on su
[18:26:35] <aldaron> ok so now the presentation
[18:26:42] <aldaron> i recommend you get doug to make the topic in is
[18:26:46] <aldaron> (somehow)
[18:27:18] <SevenDeadlySins> mmk
[18:27:28] <SevenDeadlySins> should i talk to stellar and/or darkie about it
[18:27:30] <aldaron> i was going to make it but doug is way better
[18:27:32] <aldaron> ehhh
[18:27:38] <aldaron> subtly
[18:29:23] <aldaron> the topic is vital though
[18:29:33] <SevenDeadlySins> so i should talk to djd about it
[18:29:43] <SevenDeadlySins> that the lc metagame is developing well, as seen on the cap server
[18:30:10] <SevenDeadlySins> but it would develop much better and attract more players if it had support from smogon
[18:31:01] <aldaron> you need to show that it is a metagame (do this by showing battle # statistics, the threads for setting the rules, ban / unbanning pokemon policy threads), need to show it has an active, contributing and intelligent group behind it willing to conform to smogon standards (link to analyses and mention how they will alter accordingly), mention why this should be recognized as a metagame (metagames
[18:31:05] <aldaron> exist because they are played)
[18:31:16] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah
[18:31:25] <SevenDeadlySins> also
[18:31:26] <aldaron> separately link Gen Emp's guide because I thought it was really good

[18:32:14] <SevenDeadlySins> yeah
[18:32:16] <SevenDeadlySins> it is excellent
[18:32:20] <SevenDeadlySins> we all chipped in for it
[18:32:29] <SevenDeadlySins> it explains the metagame really well
[18:32:39] <SevenDeadlySins> and we're all ready to update it if tiers change or anything else
[18:32:43] <aldaron> and then have answers ready for the "why should we take on another project?" crowd, the "even with those stats, why should we recognize this as a metagame?" crowd, and "this is just a stupid metagame" crowd (j7r and many others)
[18:33:15] <aldaron> write that all up for doug, pm it to him and gauge his interest
[18:33:27] <aldaron> and then i can start politicing
[18:33:39] <aldaron> pming various people, convincing neutrals etc.

[18:33:41] <SevenDeadlySins> well
[18:33:51] <SevenDeadlySins> in may there were approx. 1300 lc battles on cap alone
[18:34:00] <SevenDeadlySins> and that's just on the ladder
[18:34:15] <SevenDeadlySins> there are no cap june stats, which kinda sucks
[18:34:15] <aldaron> link me to lcf
[18:35:09] <SevenDeadlySins> http://s1.zetaboards.com/The_Little_Cup_Forum/index/
[18:35:27] <SevenDeadlySins> we just got our 400th member
[18:36:17] <SevenDeadlySins> also i've been undertaking an effort to bump all analyses up to smogon standards
[18:36:28] <SevenDeadlySins> as noted by the Substandard Analyses forum
[18:37:18] <SevenDeadlySins> hey
[18:37:23] <SevenDeadlySins> j7r is pretty much onboard with lc
[18:37:35] <SevenDeadlySins> his only problem is that he adamantly believes gligar is broken
[18:37:36] <SevenDeadlySins> but so do i
[18:37:40] <SevenDeadlySins> and alot of other players
[18:38:18] <SevenDeadlySins> jrrrr gligar and misdreavus need to go jrrrr other than that i love lc
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Gen. Empoleon

So from what I am trying to understand from this is that we need to wait until Shoddy Battle 2 comes out, once they are forced to adopt Doubles as a gameplay, they would be more willing to accept Little Cup. We do have a well thought out metagame, and it is obvious that we put effort into it (look at the Little Cup guide). As for the "this is just stupid crowd" we could argue that playing any other tier than OU may seem "stupid" because really OU is the main tier. But I don't really know how that would fly with LonelyNess already disliking LC and loving UU. For the "adopt another project" group it may be a stretch, but if people like Caelum or Jrrrrrrrrrrrrrr don't want to mod another section in the C&C, then other people could be chosen to mod that section, like SDS, Eric and Dixie. Though once again, we shouldn't push for too much while we're trying to get adopted. Though if the main argument is "we don't want to put up with that section, as we don't know the metagame" then that may be the only way to escape it. As for the stats group, I know we will have to give our stats a hyperbole for it to be even slightly effective, the Playtest ladder on CAP got around 3000 battles when Spiffy was introduced, while LC ladder got 1300 or so. How can we use that to our advantage is what I am asking here.
Light it up man
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Abrasive Dick

I think what Aldaron's getting at (and I completely agree) is that it's all politics and there's no support at all, so the strategy is to "force" them to adopt it by precedent of "adopting metagames because people play them", which will be easier when SB2 comes out.
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Glad that's out of the way, how's the grammer?

I cannot edit titles. I cannot do anything. Mod me.
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Seven Deadly Sins
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KD24 banned Tangela

Recent occurences in #insidescoop have put this on hold. I'll reopen this topic if/when it is necessary.
SDS, Ice resists Water. Ground doesn't resist Rock.
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