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| Tweet Topic Started: Monday Oct 20 2008, 09:35 PM (913 Views) | |
| famicommander | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 06:10 PM Post #41 |
Wipe that face off your head, bitch.
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That's horse shit. You can't base which player was better on a single, regular season game. Elway beat Montana in regular season games while Montana played in San Francisco. Elway blows Montana away. He had no teammates that were worth a shit and no good coaches until the very end of his career. Despite your excuses, he trashes Montana in the emprical categories (yards, touchdowns, wins, completions, comebacks). And he was the better athlete, by far. Montana had the greatest coach of all time. Montana had the greatest receiver of all time. Montana had Ronnie Lott, who was one of the best defensive players of all time. Elway had jack shit. |
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Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays #2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars | |
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| Necrotrophic | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 06:16 PM Post #42 |
change molds name back in 2011
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i havent even made excuses. you have though, you come up with all these silly reasons as to why he shoulda coulda woulda but he just didnt. You even contradicted yourself saying qbs are measured by success, then when I prove montana is far m ore successful you give me reasons as to why his success dosent matter. If you cant beat the defense, then youre not that good. Jerry Rice wasnt always there either. Mind you they did goto a super bowl without him. Slingers are easy to figure out, which is why Elway had more success when Shanahan came. If theres fast safeties, then your qb is limited. especially if hes slinger because its harder to throw the short accurate pass. And lets be honest, Elway didnt have to worry about playing the boys at the end of nearly every season. the afc was a joke back then. |
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| famicommander | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 06:21 PM Post #43 |
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Wipe that face off your head, bitch.
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I've made no excuses. Before 1996, Elway had played on the same team as exactly zero hall of famers. After that he played with exactly one. He had played for exactly zero coaches worth a shit. Wade Phillips had a losing record and Dan Reeves lost more Super Bowls than anyone. Elway WON MORE GAMES than Montana. He threw for more yards, had more touchdowns, and had more completions. Elway is the only player in history with five Conference Championship games. If that is not a measure of success, then what is? This whole argument stems from the Garcia and Hasselbeck thing. Neither of them have any significant statistical records. Neither has won a Super Bowl. Between them, they have one Conference Championship. |
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Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays #2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars | |
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| Necrotrophic | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 06:26 PM Post #44 |
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change molds name back in 2011
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I could have won games by myself in the AFC in those times. Literally give me the ball and ill throw it to myself and shut out every game. Wade lost more super bowls than anyone.... But by your definition thats still good? Elway lost a lot of super bowls.. the WCO was a short passing attack. not a slinger, for the last time thowing the ball down the field was never an indicator of a good qb. the confrence elway was in stopped mattering in the 70s and didnt matter again until recently. success is measured by super bowls. this is a team game afterall. Im just saying I think garcia and hasselbeck have potential for greatness but are largely untapped. I dont know hasselbacks situation all that much though, so I cant really comment on him. I did see him play and hes very accurate in the short pass attack. which makes him a great qb. |
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| famicommander | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 06:35 PM Post #45 |
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Wipe that face off your head, bitch.
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That's ridiculous. If the AFC was so pathetic, then why wasn't every Super Bowl in the 80s a blowout? The AFC won three of ten. They lost two of the games by four points. There was a lot more parity than you're representing here. Throwing the ball down field doesn't make you a good QB, but throwing it down field for TOUCHDOWNS does. Elway COMPLETED more passes down field than Montana did in the short game. That's ridiculous, because QBs are historically MORE ACCURATE in the short game. And no, being accurate in the short attack does not make you a great QB. That's fucking asinine. Scoring points and winning games makes you a great QB. Is Matt Cassel a great QB? Because he completed a shitload of passes last night. If success is measured by Super Bowls, then that makes Brady a great QB. You just negated your entire argument. Elway was not only a winner, but he was a winner who did it all by himself. That is undeniable. Montana had the best receiver ever, the best coach ever, and one of the best defensive players ever. That is also undeniable. |
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Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays #2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars | |
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| Necrotrophic | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 06:47 PM Post #46 |
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change molds name back in 2011
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short passes are harder to be accurate with. thats not asinine, even alex smith is able to chuck it down field. Dan Marino, who for some reason is regarded as one of the greatest ever cant throw short passes. horizontal passing attacks are the way to spread out the defense and tire it out, to run the clock later in the game. a lot of people dont understand this concept, which is why the 49ers are the most successful franchise in the history of the game because they had this. the short pass is where its typically intercepted, if you complete more there you are more accurate and are by far the better qb than anyone who chucks it down field. Which is why far more people consider montana, steve young, favre etc to be better qbs than elway. They are not more accurate in the short game. saying that, is ridiculous. scoring points is good, which is why you dominate in the first half. not sit back and worry about a 2 minute come back. a good qb is also a smart one. Matt Cassel is actually a good qb, hes just a newbie. hell probably do something big by the end of his career. wether hes a slinger or a wco qb i dont know. tom brady is technically a good qb. But, what I consider to be a good qb is different. I think short accuracy to tire out the defense is better. Brady is excellent at the slinger thing. I dont think the slinger thing is the best route to success, and if he had a better short game who knows where he would be. montana is a passer who won 4 super bowls. Elway won two right? This is speculative, but I bet Montana could have won those super bowls in elways place. Montana is deadly accurate. You said yourself Bill Walsh is the best coach of all time, well the best coach of all time says Joe Montana is the best QB of all time. Its coaches who make players. |
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| famicommander | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 07:02 PM Post #47 |
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Wipe that face off your head, bitch.
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Every QB in history has a higher completion percentage in the short game than in the long game. That's a straight-up fact. What made Montana great was not the fact that he was accurate in the short game. It was that he was great under pressure and didn't turn the ball over. An accurate passer in the short game doesn't make a good QB. Put Montana on the teams which Elway carried to the Super Bowl and lost. Those teams don't get a whiff of the Super Bowl with Montana instead of Elway. Do you know why? Because Montana managed games. Montana maximized the talent around him and made smart decisions. But there was no talent around Elway. The only decision Elway had to make was how to win the game by himself. Elway won those games by slinging the ball down the field and taking off and running. Neither were something that Montana was good at. But we KNOW that Elway could run the West Coast Offense, because he DID it. Elway could've replaced Montana, but Montana could not have replaced Elway. The short pass is not the only measure of a good QB, and the fact that you keep saying that greatly subtracts from your credibility. All time winningest QBs: 1. Favre 2. Elway 3. Marino 4. Tarkenton 5. Unitas 6. Montana 7. Bradshaw 8. Moon Guess what? Only one of them was a short game passer. |
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Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays #2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars | |
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| Necrotrophic | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 07:09 PM Post #48 |
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change molds name back in 2011
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this is the most ridiculous thing youve said thus far the winningest qbs? Did you know George Seifert has that record over Bill? Clearly that dosent matter Montana managed games because thats what walsh told him to do. Thats a big part of the WCO Also, Elway didnt have any real success until someone who ran the WCO came to coach him. If he did it by himself then why didnt he win any super bowls without Shanahan(WHO WAS RUN HEAVY) Walsh would probably pass on Elway, honestly. He has the same opinion on slingers as I do which is why he never wanted one. Since he was in the NFC he had to be much more competitive too. the short pass in which you spread the defense, thats based upon timing thats usually blind is the best indicator as to who is a good qb. Elway isnt a pure WCO qb, Shanahan runs a different version of WCO. If elway was better at the short pass, he could have tired the defense ou and wouldnt need all those comebacks. asmart qb is a good qb Let me say this one more time: The short pass, more specifically timing based passes is the best indicator to a good qb. QB's who just chuck it just have strong arms. That dosent make you a good qb. Elway was a good qb, he had more than just that. But not much more. People think slingers are the best qb's because its entertaining to watch. Favre is WCO btw and Marino sucks Edited by Necrotrophic, Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 07:12 PM.
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| famicommander | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 07:21 PM Post #49 |
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Wipe that face off your head, bitch.
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You're simply wrong, and that's all there is to it. The short pass can spread the defense just like the long pass can stretch it, which opens up the run game. There's a difference between being able to throw it far and throw it far with accuracy. Jamarus Russel and Michael Vick. Both have outstanding arms, but neither can throw it accurately. They are both terrible quarterbacks. There is just as much timing involved with the long pass, because you have to hit the receiver in stride for it to be effective. The first year Elway won the Super Bowl it wasn't the full West Coast. It was mostly a throw it deep and run the ball offense. The second year was almost entirely West Coast, and Elway won with it. To say that Dan Marino was a bad QB is absolute idiocy. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Montana could not have replaced Elway. Elway could have replaced Montana. Elway was accurate in all fields of the game. |
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Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays #2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars | |
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| Necrotrophic | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 07:27 PM Post #50 |
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change molds name back in 2011
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im not even close to being wrong, the best thing is youre coming up with the absolute silliest reasons to try and prove that hes even that great. I hate to bring in analysts and historians and such, but many of them dont even put elway on the list. the long ball puts pressure on safties. not the entire defense which is why bill walsh's system actually works best. theres not nearly as much timing involved because WCO is often BLIND passing. Look it up. No it isnt idiocy, you know why? Because he hasnt done shit and CANT THROW THE BALL SHORT. Which is why he failed. The best part is, HE KNOWS IT. Marino sucks, thats that. You can say that all you want, but its not true at all. Montana is the best in the history of the game Out of curiosities sake: What team is more successful? Broncos or the 49ers? If you say Broncos, i wonder why you're even a fan. It seems you're somewhat hostile to the team outside of Elway. |
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| famicommander | Tuesday Oct 21 2008, 07:56 PM Post #51 |
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Wipe that face off your head, bitch.
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Historically, the 49ers are obiviously the most successful team. But over the last decade, it's easily the Broncos. But no, Montana is not the best. Again, Elway could replace Montana but Montana could not replace Elway. Elway could throw the ball short and manage the game. We know because he did it in his last year. But Montana could not avoid the rush, bide his time, and throw a 70 yard bomb for a touchdown. |
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Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays #2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars | |
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| Cube_of_MooN | Wednesday Oct 22 2008, 09:02 PM Post #52 |
Teh Cube
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H8s, I have no idea how you can possibly say Marino and Brady aren't good QB's and that JEFF GARCIA and MATT HASSELBECK are better than them. It truly does baffle me. Just because a QB doesn't run a WCO doesn't mean they suck, it just means they are a different type of QB.
Edited by Cube_of_MooN, Wednesday Oct 22 2008, 09:02 PM.
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| Necrotrophic | Thursday Oct 23 2008, 09:10 AM Post #53 |
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change molds name back in 2011
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with brady, i actually saw his college games and it seems like he is actually capable of doing "blind passes" that the WCO runs. Marino is a proven flop. Literally. Its not even about throwing blind passes with him, its not even about anything related to WCO. Its well documented that he couldnt throw well. All he could do was sling it. Hell, even ESPN (whos biased to east coast teams) made a documentary/show thing about how bad he was when throwing short(not even WCO style, just SHORT). You need to be more accurate if you're throwing short in a horizontal pass game to tire out the defense. WCO is a style thats meant to take the linemen out of the game and tire the entire defense, which is why its the proven system. WCO qbs are typically better because they are typically more accurate. The numbers dont lie either. If you're a passer typically you fall into two camps, high completions (Joe Montana) or big yards (Marino etc) Being a QB is more than having a strong arm and being able to give hand offs. West coast qbs have a bigger practice regiment because they have to make sure theyre entirely accurate, or they get benched. Because if you dont have a quick, accurate, and capable qb to make "blind passes" your team isnt going to do well. Theres a reason Bill Walsh is considered the best coach in the history of the game, because he understood how to enhance the QB position, and that was giving up on the tired 2d qb. WCO is more about technique than it is having a bunch of plays. If you think its harder to sling the ball 50 yards down the field into single coverage you're kidding yourself and probably never played football before. I played tight end/WR and I can tell you its much easier to catch the deep ball than it is the short one. If youre able to get ahead of the defender, you got yourself a chance. More people think long passing plays are a good indicator of a good qb, for the same reason people think Chuck Liddell is a good fighter. Granted it takes skill, its just not as hard or as effective once you master WCO. Which is why after so many years of having slinger qbs Montana and Young had more success. Two QB's vs how many? all im saying is, in a system where a QB has to be near perfect guys like Marino would be third string (if on the team at all). Brady might be able to run it. I can see why he says Joe Montana is his biggest influence, because in college he did a lot like him. If you can do both, thats even better. I dont expect anyone to buy into it, but that dosent matter anyway. Teams who run good WCO are very dominant, and every single team in the NFL takes from what Bill Walsh taught. This is common knowledge in the NFL. Truth be told though, my gripe isnt with Elway(no reason to have any), my gripe isnt with Brady(again none). I dont like how people consider Marino to be a good QB when he clearly isnt. He was two dimensional(long pass, hand off) who had one good run in which he got entirely dominated in the end, when everyone said he was supposed to make quick work of a team with less "appeal" |
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12:49 AM Jul 13