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SKYRIM MOTHERFUCKER
Topic Started: Wednesday Jan 19 2011, 10:18 PM (4,634 Views)
whoozwah
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Is it live, or is it Dave-orex?
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moldonhold
 
And this is before getting into races, major and minor skills, and attributes.


Heavy_Metal_Jesus
 
warrior mage thief god.


gross.
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moldonhold
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FUCK THE JETS
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Heavy_Metal_Jesus
Friday Jan 21 2011, 12:45 AM
And absolutely none of that means anything because you can do everything regardless of your skills, nothing has any consequence, and there's absolutely no reason to play the game as anything other than a warrior mage thief god.
That's some bullshit. Sure you can try everything (another nod to giving the player as much freedom as possible) but you won't be good at anything unless you put the time and effort into it (again your choice). There are just so many variations and possibilities and things to do that no two playthroughs play out the same way, and if that isn't a "player defined experience" then I don't know what is.

Lastly, Dark Brotherhood > all.
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Jak
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All playthroughs do end up the same, though. With everything Bethesda has done right this generation, the one thing that I think they're really lacking is the ability to have unique story developments for each new character. That was the most glaring thing when they picked up Fallout 3: where in the previous iterations, missions and entire playthroughs would vary due to your stats and skills, everything in Fallout 3 was accessible as long as you had a high enough lockpick and/or science skill. Bethesda aims to make one giant, amazing playthrough, which it does, but after that some of the fun is taken away because of everything being the exact same.
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FOXHOUND
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SG is BRO
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moldonhold
Friday Jan 21 2011, 11:09 PM
That's some bullshit. Sure you can try everything (another nod to giving the player as much freedom as possible) but you won't be good at anything unless you put the time and effort into it (again your choice). There are just so many variations and possibilities and things to do that no two playthroughs play out the same way, and if that isn't a "player defined experience" then I don't know what is.

Lastly, Dark Brotherhood > all.
"Player freedom" and "allowing the player to do absolutely everything at level 1" is different. And yes, you can do everything in Oblivion at level 1. I did it with one character (well, mostly everything that was worth playing more than once: so not the main story).

A true "role-playing game" allows the player to select both advantages and disadvantages for their character (because everyone is imperfect) that allow them access to certain quest lines, and forbids them from others (or makes them exceedingly difficult and require exceptional player skill). It makes you choose how to build your character in a way that suits your play style.

Oblivion does none of this, and requires nothing of the sort in terms of levels or skills... because you just raise your skills up no matter what (they don't stop going up, even after you meet the requirements for the level up), and what "restrictions" they did put up on the skills (non-Attribute skills level a little bit slower than Attribute skills), mean nothing because you can still just level those skills like any other.

--

Daggerfall is the exemplar of choice in the Elder Scrolls series. You have to CHOOSE what you are able to do... because there is barely any way of raising skills you don't focus on (they take literally forever to raise at all, and start our really low). And you can't use every type of weapon, you actually have to pick whether you want to use small swords, long swords, blunt weapons or axe weapons (or archery or magic for ranged attacks, and its only one type of magic per skill slot: which means you can fail casting spells if you aren't good enough with them)

On top of that, the world is so massive (161,000 square miles) and many parts are procedurally generated (think Minecraft) that there is no way for one human being (even if they've been playing 8 hours a day since its release 15 years ago) to experience everything in the game. Which is what a true PNP world is like.

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Oblivion is a decently well-put-together action-adventure, that really doesn't give any real reason to "choose" anything... even in the quests there is usually only one way of sorting things out: violence.

And I played the Dark Brotherhood more than anything else in the game (I've probably made at least 5 characters solely for that quest line, on top of every other one I've brought through it: hell, even one of the main NPC's doesn't use stealth, so anyone can do it)... and honestly, if that is what you are using to sell the game (and not Knights of the Nine or Shivering Isles, which clearly are the best Oblivion offers in terms of creativity and content), then I weep for you. It isn't THAT great... it just seems great amongst a sea of garbage.[cleft=darkslategray][/cleft][cright=black][/cright][pleft=white][/pleft][dl=black][/dl]
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Jak
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Skyrim will have level-scaling. I am not into this.
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famicommander
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Yeah, fuck level scaling.
Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs
Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs
Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild
Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers
Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits
Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds
Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals
Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers
Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal
Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays
#2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars
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whoozwah
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fuck leveling
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SuperDouxSanaCanThree
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What why? Level scaling seems good in concept. I don't like games to get too easy...
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Jak
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But I also shouldn't be taking the same amount of time to kill a goblin at level twenty that I was at level one.
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Necrotrophic
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I think leveling makes games easier, because you can essentially flow chart your way to being gdlk.

granted this flow charting takes forever, but theres no real challenge involved most of the time.

when i was playing vesperia, i would go online/watch movies while grinding levels so that i could stand a chance in the next stage.
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whoozwah
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grinding is a horrible thing. why design a game that you cannot progress evenly throughout outside of doing trivial little things over and over again to increase a number?

I'm totally of the mindset that your skill as a player and hitting the right buttons at the right time should determine whether or not you can kill an enemy, not how much xp you have or whatever the fuck.
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Necrotrophic
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change molds name back in 2011
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couldnt agree more, turn based battles in rpgs that have levels like that is LAZY game design.

They would rather not create intelligent AI, they would rather have the level you are at determine how hard something is, and more often than not, the battles that you need to level up are random. So its not like they made any real effort in developing the game.

as far as im concerned, typical RPGs are by far the easiest to create and the easiest to beat, all you have to do is play it and it eventually beats its self.
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Jandurin
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level scaling is worse than grinding.
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moldonhold
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FUCK THE JETS
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Level scaling is some weak shit
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Zar Mulix
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Grinding is annoying as hell.
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Heavy_Metal_Jesus
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I'm not against the concept of level scaling, I certainly prefer that the strengths of enemies be determined by their location with respect to the lore and events in the story to create a more believable world that integrates with gameplay, but having some connection to player level isn't inherently game-breaking.

However, I have played enough Bethesda games with level scaling to know that they do not do it correctly at all, since Oblivion and Fallout 3 were both insultingly easy on any difficulty setting and offered no real feelings of progression since you could do whatever you wanted at level 1.
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Jandurin
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i'm not as irritated by being able to do everything at level 1 as i am at never becoming truly godlike :<
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FOXHOUND
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Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul handled level scaling perfectly. The problem with Bethesda's design, was that they chose not to put in any high-challenge enemies (such as Minotaurs or Liches) and just based enemy spawning on the player's level. Level-scaling, when done right, is leagues better than grinding.[cleft=darkslategray][/cleft][cright=black][/cright][pleft=white][/pleft][dl=black][/dl]
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famicommander
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Wipe that face off your head, bitch.
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Level scaling has never been "done right" because it is a terrible concept.
Denver Broncos: defending champs, 8-6, next game 12/25 @ Kansas City Chiefs
Colorado Rockies: 75-87, missed playoffs
Colorado Avalanche: 11-18-1, next game 12/20 @ Minnesota Wild
Denver Nuggets: 12-16, next game 12/20 @ Los Angeles Clippers
Colorado Mammoth: first game 12/30 @ Buffalo Bandits
Denver Outlaws: defending champs, first game 4/22 @ Charlotte Hounds
Colorado State Rams football: 7-5, next game Idaho Bowl 12/22 vs Idaho Vandals
Colorado State Rams basketball: 8-4, next game 12/22 vs Long Beach State 49ers
Winnipeg Blue Bombers: 11-7, lost West Division Semifinal
Denver Pioneers Lacrosse: first game 1/24 vs Johns Hopkins Blue Jays
#2 Denver Pioneers Hockey: 12-3-3, next game 12/30 @ Providence College Friars
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Jandurin
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famicommander
Tuesday Feb 15 2011, 10:52 AM
Level scaling has never been "done right" because it is a terrible concept.
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