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TES V General Discussion
Topic Started: Mar 8 2011, 04:23:07 PM (2,346 Views)
VickyD
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I think we finally have enough official information to create this topic, so let the general banter commence for TES V!

I do foresee one glaring problem with this game already: I don't think the story line works unless you play as a Nord. I'm not a lore buff, so maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that a Dragonborn Dunmer makes much sense. Are we gonna be forced to play as a Nord in this game?

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Dr. Åssom
Jan 3 2011, 07:41:16 PM
Are you implying that I lied about staying at home and doing nothing on New Year's? Do you think that I'm secretly a massive party animal and just trying to hide my awesome life from you all to avoid you becoming jealous?
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Lord Veneficus
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Being a Dragonborn isn't restricted to one race.
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TRIALS, Dugandiran story.
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VickyD
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And there we go. Dis-proven within 30 minutes. I should probably keep my mouth out of lore..

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Dr. Åssom
Jan 3 2011, 07:41:16 PM
Are you implying that I lied about staying at home and doing nothing on New Year's? Do you think that I'm secretly a massive party animal and just trying to hide my awesome life from you all to avoid you becoming jealous?
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Lord Veneficus
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It's fine. Everybody has those days.
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"I've felt these shifting hours
Mistakenly used up
So I gasp and hold my breath"

TRIALS, Dugandiran story.
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Dr. Åssom
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Well, as far as I'm concerned, most of the games seem based around one race but just make convenient excuses as to why the other races are present. Logically, the Nerevarine would really only work as a Dunmer, and the Champion of Cyrodiil should be an Imperial. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other two games were aimed at one race, though I haven't actually played either of them. So, while Skyrim would really make the most sense with a Nord character, they just tweak things a little to let any race be playable.
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Lord Veneficus
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But like I said, it isn't restricted in the lore. I mean, there isn't any information about the dragonborns yet, but I'm sure there will be.
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"I've felt these shifting hours
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So I gasp and hold my breath"

TRIALS, Dugandiran story.
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Vanir
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Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 05:54:25 PM
Well, as far as I'm concerned, most of the games seem based around one race but just make convenient excuses as to why the other races are present. Logically, the Nerevarine would really only work as a Dunmer, and the Champion of Cyrodiil should be an Imperial. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other two games were aimed at one race, though I haven't actually played either of them. So, while Skyrim would really make the most sense with a Nord character, they just tweak things a little to let any race be playable.
Daggerfall makes sense for play as an Imperial (though I'm not even sure that Imperials existed at that point...), but since they definitely DIDN'T exist at the time of Arena, no specific race makes sense.

Beyond that, any race could feasibly have produced a Nerevarine, given the whole deal with the recycling of souls via the Dream Sleeve.



Actually, there's plenty of information about Dragonborn. Every member of the Septim line was a Dragonborn, same as Saint Alessia and pretty much everyone else important to Imperial history. It more or less just means that they were marked or blessed by Akatosh (the irony here being that Alduin, the main villain of Skyrim and master of the dragons in the game, is the Nordic aspect of Akatosh). This could mean that the game will end with the creation of a new Imperial empire, or at least lead to it. Should be interesting, either way.
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Lord Veneficus
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Akatosh actually has multiple personality disorder. There are three different versions of the Dragon God of Time: Alduin-Nedic, Auri-El- Elven, and Akatosh- Imperial.

One wants to eat the world and create another. Another wants to protect its people. And I can't remember what the last one wants.
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"I've felt these shifting hours
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So I gasp and hold my breath"

TRIALS, Dugandiran story.
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Dr. Åssom
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Vanir
Mar 8 2011, 06:18:24 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 05:54:25 PM
Well, as far as I'm concerned, most of the games seem based around one race but just make convenient excuses as to why the other races are present. Logically, the Nerevarine would really only work as a Dunmer, and the Champion of Cyrodiil should be an Imperial. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other two games were aimed at one race, though I haven't actually played either of them. So, while Skyrim would really make the most sense with a Nord character, they just tweak things a little to let any race be playable.
Daggerfall makes sense for play as an Imperial (though I'm not even sure that Imperials existed at that point...), but since they definitely DIDN'T exist at the time of Arena, no specific race makes sense.
All four of the games take place during the course of a couple decades, if even that. Arena has to do with Jagar Tharn kidnapping Uriel Septim VII, the same Imperial emperor as in all the games.
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Vanir
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Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 06:47:23 PM
Vanir
Mar 8 2011, 06:18:24 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 05:54:25 PM
Well, as far as I'm concerned, most of the games seem based around one race but just make convenient excuses as to why the other races are present. Logically, the Nerevarine would really only work as a Dunmer, and the Champion of Cyrodiil should be an Imperial. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other two games were aimed at one race, though I haven't actually played either of them. So, while Skyrim would really make the most sense with a Nord character, they just tweak things a little to let any race be playable.
Daggerfall makes sense for play as an Imperial (though I'm not even sure that Imperials existed at that point...), but since they definitely DIDN'T exist at the time of Arena, no specific race makes sense.
All four of the games take place during the course of a couple decades, if even that. Arena has to do with Jagar Tharn kidnapping Uriel Septim VII, the same Imperial emperor as in all the games.
Yes, but Imperials as a race didn't exist lore-wise at the time. Go to the Imperial City in Arena. All you'll see is Redguards.
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Dr. Åssom
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Vanir
Mar 8 2011, 06:54:21 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 06:47:23 PM
Vanir
Mar 8 2011, 06:18:24 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 05:54:25 PM
Well, as far as I'm concerned, most of the games seem based around one race but just make convenient excuses as to why the other races are present. Logically, the Nerevarine would really only work as a Dunmer, and the Champion of Cyrodiil should be an Imperial. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other two games were aimed at one race, though I haven't actually played either of them. So, while Skyrim would really make the most sense with a Nord character, they just tweak things a little to let any race be playable.
Daggerfall makes sense for play as an Imperial (though I'm not even sure that Imperials existed at that point...), but since they definitely DIDN'T exist at the time of Arena, no specific race makes sense.
All four of the games take place during the course of a couple decades, if even that. Arena has to do with Jagar Tharn kidnapping Uriel Septim VII, the same Imperial emperor as in all the games.
Yes, but Imperials as a race didn't exist lore-wise at the time. Go to the Imperial City in Arena. All you'll see is Redguards.
So, you're saying that an entire race emerged over the course of a couple years, a race that has somehow retroactively controlled an empire since the First Age? Sure, they may not have appeared in the early games, but, by that logic, the races of Akavir still don't exist yet. I'm just stating an entirely random and meaningless word when I say "Akavir," as there is no such thing in the lore.
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VickyD
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Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 07:06:43 PM
Vanir
Mar 8 2011, 06:54:21 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 06:47:23 PM
Vanir
Mar 8 2011, 06:18:24 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 05:54:25 PM
Well, as far as I'm concerned, most of the games seem based around one race but just make convenient excuses as to why the other races are present. Logically, the Nerevarine would really only work as a Dunmer, and the Champion of Cyrodiil should be an Imperial. I also wouldn't be surprised if the other two games were aimed at one race, though I haven't actually played either of them. So, while Skyrim would really make the most sense with a Nord character, they just tweak things a little to let any race be playable.
Daggerfall makes sense for play as an Imperial (though I'm not even sure that Imperials existed at that point...), but since they definitely DIDN'T exist at the time of Arena, no specific race makes sense.
All four of the games take place during the course of a couple decades, if even that. Arena has to do with Jagar Tharn kidnapping Uriel Septim VII, the same Imperial emperor as in all the games.
Yes, but Imperials as a race didn't exist lore-wise at the time. Go to the Imperial City in Arena. All you'll see is Redguards.
So, you're saying that an entire race emerged over the course of a couple years, a race that has somehow retroactively controlled an empire since the First Age? Sure, they may not have appeared in the early games, but, by that logic, the races of Akavir still don't exist yet. I'm just stating an entirely random and meaningless word when I say "Akavir," as there is no such thing in the lore.
I think he meant they hadn't gotten the name "Imperials" yet.
Edited by VickyD, Mar 8 2011, 07:09:35 PM.

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Dr. Åssom
Jan 3 2011, 07:41:16 PM
Are you implying that I lied about staying at home and doing nothing on New Year's? Do you think that I'm secretly a massive party animal and just trying to hide my awesome life from you all to avoid you becoming jealous?
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Vanir
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No, I'm saying they were retconned into existence. Before Morrowind, the word Imperial was never used except to refer to the Empire itself, or anything derivative of it.

Actually, Akavir does exist, as it has been explicitly mentioned in several texts, not the least of which is Mysterious Akavir, which even mentions it in its very name. The same can not be said for Imperials.
Edited by Vanir, Mar 8 2011, 07:13:04 PM.
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Dr. Åssom
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So? A retcon is used specifically to, you know, place something into the story retroactively. Sure, when the pre-Morrowind games came out there were no Imperials, but, due to that retcon, they now exist. If you had said, "Yes, but Imperials as a race didn't exist game-wise at the time," you would have been entirely accurate. However, the lore does, in fact, say that they existed during those first games.
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VickyD
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Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 07:14:21 PM
So? A retcon is used specifically to, you know, place something into the story retroactively. Sure, when the pre-Morrowind games came out there were no Imperials, but, due to that retcon, they now exist. If you had said, "Yes, but Imperials as a race didn't exist game-wise at the time," you would have been entirely accurate. However, the lore does, in fact, say that they existed during those first games.
Don't mind him, Vanir. He was born correct.

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Dr. Åssom
Jan 3 2011, 07:41:16 PM
Are you implying that I lied about staying at home and doing nothing on New Year's? Do you think that I'm secretly a massive party animal and just trying to hide my awesome life from you all to avoid you becoming jealous?
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Vanir
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I said the exact same thing. When I said "lore-wise at the time," I meant the lore that existed at the time, which didn't include Imperials.
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Dr. Åssom
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VickyD
Mar 8 2011, 07:16:33 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 8 2011, 07:14:21 PM
So? A retcon is used specifically to, you know, place something into the story retroactively. Sure, when the pre-Morrowind games came out there were no Imperials, but, due to that retcon, they now exist. If you had said, "Yes, but Imperials as a race didn't exist game-wise at the time," you would have been entirely accurate. However, the lore does, in fact, say that they existed during those first games.
Don't mind him, Vanir. He was born correct.
You know Vicky, your constant condescension towards me is really fucking annoying.
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Vanir
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Back on topic.
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Turtle
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What do we feel about Radiant Story Creation? Think they'll pull it off, or will it be just one more screw up? ( /nods towards RadiantAI NPC talking to himself about how how disapproving he is of the shop that he himself owns)
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Vanir
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I'm a little bit apprehensive about it. The problem with Oblivion is that the Radiant AI system they originally had that was shown in the E3 demos ended up not being implemented, for whatever reason. I think they probably have Radiant Story fully designed by now, so it should work out well. But, like I said, anything could happen, so I'm being a bit cautious with my hype here.
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Dr. Åssom
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Meh, whatever. I guess, if it works, then it'll be cool. I didn't actually find much problem with the Radiant AI. Sure, it made some funny scenes, but it was still better than the NPCs in Morrowind who just stood in one place for all of eternity.
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Turtle
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True, but one hopes that they'll succeed in pulling off what they've been displaying. I hate things that don't work as well as they should/could :P

Another thing I've noticed from the fairly limited information I've seen, is that the Skyrim gameplay seems a lot more rugged and defined. From the minimalistic UI, to the new combat system and the stunning visuals, everything seems to be geared more towards immersion (even the sprinting gait on the trailer looked delightful.) In some senses this is a very different step away from Oblivion, which with its eternity of menus seemed to very much be focusing on immersion through detail and complexity, whereas Skyrim (so far) is shaping up to be a lot more rugged and minimalistic, and I suppose you could argue that through these design choices and simplifications it's becoming a lot more generic. How do we feel about the direction TES games are moving in?
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[NUMINIT]
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I guess the minimalizing of UI stems from the critique of Oblivion's exhausting menus, which I don't mind. Hell, in Morrowind, you could access everything with a click, and I loved it.
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VickyD
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You know what really got me excited in the trailer? The very obvious assassination scene. Thank God there are assassinations! For anyone remembers me from when I use to frequent the BGSF forums like 3 years ago (which none of you probably do) I always use to talk about assassinations. At one point, I even had a whole thing written up for how it could work with taking into consideration the lighting, what armor you were wearing, and what armor the NPC who was being assassinated was wearing.

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Dr. Åssom
Jan 3 2011, 07:41:16 PM
Are you implying that I lied about staying at home and doing nothing on New Year's? Do you think that I'm secretly a massive party animal and just trying to hide my awesome life from you all to avoid you becoming jealous?
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Dr. Åssom
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Realistically, the enemy's armor is entirely meaningless in the equation. When you assassinate someone, you're not going to stab them in the back throw a shitloat of armor. You're going to slit their unprotected throat or stab them in the lightly protected waist or find some other way to bypass the armor, maybe slipping the knife through the plates of the armor if it's platemail. That's why it's called assassination: it's intended to be lethal.
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Turtle
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Mar 14 2011, 01:53:53 PM
Realistically, the enemy's armor is entirely meaningless in the equation.
I have to disagree. Assassination daggers have throughout history in general been light and swift, favouring stabbing actions (as supposed to slicing blades which are often too heavy or unmanageable, as well as providing a more limited means of assassination (deep penetration into various organs is more deadly than the slicing of veins/arteries)) which means actions such as slicing the throat aren't as effective at dispatching a target as a hearty thrust to the base of the spine would be, quite aside from the overuse in general media (though this doesn't negate a swift slice to the throat's value, or account for every type of assassination weapon). However, this does present a problem, as Human flesh is surprisingly difficult to stab through (compared to how easy it is to slice through (paper cut)), which often means a surprising amount of pressure must be applied to the blow to ensure that it is effective. This often means that the target must be in contrapositive movement to the blow (hence why you pull the target back at the same time as thrusting the weapon forwards.) A heavily armoured target is often incredibly heavy meaning that they are more difficult to manhandle, and such armour mitigates a large amount of the force of impact. For example, back when I was learning cocktails of Martial Arts, and was studying knife techniques, we were often taught that a strike to the kidneys, down through the shoulder into the heart, or through the back of the ribcage into the lungs/heart were often the easiest forms of achieving a killing blow - armour however protects these areas quite effectively, leaving (assuming the target is wearing a full set) only the neck and other similar joinings in the armour open to punishment, which require incredibly precise strikes to take full advantage of. Armour (depending on the material) can also be very effective at preventing arrows from penetrating, which completely nullifies a primary avenue of effective assassination (unless the assassin is able to find a subtle vantage point to lug a longbow/crossbow up to.) Finally, fist strikes intended to render the target paralyzed/unconscious are ineffective against targets wearing armour, as punching leather/mail isn't effective, and punching plate is likely to do more damage to you. For example, the diaphragm, hamstrings and various other pressure points on the legs which one would normally use to bring the target to their knees or disorientate/wind the target are protected, meaning that the first strike is vital.

However, armour does also present various opportunities for the assassin - for example, a target wearing armour won't feel the initial touch of a would-be assassin upon their armour, or be able to rise to their feet as quickly if they found themselves falling. Armour also increases body heat, which not only increases physical strain should the assassination attempt turn scrappy, but also (at an age where hygiene was far less effective than it is today) made targets sweat and smell more, allowing the assassin additional sensory information as to the (relatively near) location of their target. Additionally, this decreased ability to vent sweat furthered the effectiveness of various poisons. Furthermore armour slows the target, and depending on size and quality, not only makes them heavier and noisier, yet also can single them out as the target due to the uniqueness of their armour. Helmets of plate also offered notoriously poor vision, meaning that a Helmet bearing target would likely be much easier to sneak up on.

Lighter armours are in general favourable for the target, as they leave them relatively unhindered, yet provide a semblance of protection. Edit: Funnily enough, thinking about it, the forefront of the skull (the nose) is an often overlooked area, as the cartilage there is less strong than the bone surrounding the skull, and can be forced up through the nasal cavity into the brain even if the original strike fails, and is an area that Armour does not always seem to cover (/scurries off to Google images). However, to guarantee a kill one would just burst the lungs or the kidneys of the target, which would (unless healing could regrow them) cause massive internal bleeding, render the target in shock, and lead to a slow and painful death.

Anyway, I digress. Overall I think the game looks set to be awesome, and this is something I'll quite happily fork out serious money to upgrade my PC for. In the mean time I'll just have to enjoy Shogun 2 on average :(
Edited by Turtle, Mar 14 2011, 05:20:13 PM.
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You know way too much about assassination... :ermm:
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Dr. Åssom
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That's...not what I was talking about...at all. That kind of detail is simply far, far too much for a video game. I mean that armor is meaningless in the equation of Attack - Defense = Damage. Yes, in real life, it's quite important. I secede that point, even if I wasn't talking about it to begin with. I'm saying that, in the simplistic view of a video game, the armor is pointless.

Though, there is one single point that I must disagree with you on:
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However, this does present a problem, as Human flesh is surprisingly difficult to stab through ...
No it's not. It only takes one pound of pressure per square inch to break the skin. Stabbing is more difficult as you also have to deal with muscles and bones. Skin is easy to break, but muscle and bone is another story.
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Vanir
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Dr. Åssom
Mar 14 2011, 05:57:52 PM
...I secede that point...
You mean "cede," right? :P


Either way, I just hope we have some cool assassination opportunities.
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Dr. Åssom
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Vanir
Mar 14 2011, 06:01:01 PM
Dr. Åssom
Mar 14 2011, 05:57:52 PM
...I secede that point...
You mean "cede," right? :P
No, I meant "concede."
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